"Stop the war now" - I'd rather die tommorow

[Jim]

If you engage in an aggressive war, you are responsible for the casualties you cause.

 

Out of curiosity, can you name a war in which any combatant met the moral standards you are now applying to Israel?

[mooeypoo]

Just something I encountered btw online:

 

http://ambivablog.typepad.com/ambivablog/2006/08/lebanon_a_victi.html

 

Called "Lebanon a victim? What a joke!"

 

Interresting Read. Note that the one quoted is Michael Behe. From Lebanon.

 

~moo

[Tetrahedrite]

Really' date=' then what should Israel do when their schoolbuses and commuter busses full of CIVILIANS gets blown up by hezballah and hamas. Mind you....they target women and children first. So, you can join budullewraagh, who calls Israel a terrorist state, without telling us what should Israel do.

 

I'm not out to prove either of you wrong because you both have a case closed mindset. The real terrorists love both of you I think..... Sad.

 

Bee[/quote']

This makes me angry so I am giong to say exactly what I think - what a load of emotive BS!! Don't misquote me and don't tell me what I think:mad:

 

If I had posted something like this I would probably have got a warning from a moderator. In my very honest opinion, I think differnt rules apply to different people. I probably will get one now anyway.

 

Really, then what should Israel do when their schoolbuses and commuter busses full of CIVILIANS gets blown up by hezballah and hamas.

If your going to accuse me of having a case closed mindset, then you should probably get your facts straight. The current action in Lebanon is against Hezbollah (or Hizbullah), not Hamas. The two are completely separate entities, but you seem to use them interchangably (your not the only one). Hezbollah has not been involved in suicide bombings for at least seven years. To suggest that the present action in Lebanon is to protect themselves against "their schoolbuses and commuter busses(sic) full of CIVILIANS" getting blown up in suicide attacks is a strawman.

 

Mind you....they target women and children first.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that Hezbollah (not Hamas) is targeting woman and children in particular, rather than civilians in general. If you can provide some I will gladly stand up to be corrected, otherwise this is just another emotive strawman.

So, you can join budullewraagh, who calls Israel a terrorist state, without telling us what should Israel do.

Let me get this quite clear, I have never called Israel a "terrorist state" and I have never suggested that I have an answer to the problems in the Middle East. I have never suggested that I support Hezbollah in any way shape or form.

 

I'm not out to prove either of you wrong because you both have a case closed mindset. The real terrorists love both of you I think..... Sad.

This really made me p*ss*d off, and this is where I believe you should of been warned. It is quite clear you are suggesting that Bud. and I support terrorism. I can't speak for Bud., but I do not support terrorism, and have never suggested in this forum that I support terrorism, and never will. It is a logical fallacy to assume that criticism of Israel=support for Hezbollah. I made this quite clear in my post:

I maybe an idealist, but I do not believe a building full of civilians is a legitimate target, under any circumstances, for either side of the conflict[/b'].

As for having a case closed mindset, I would suggest to you that you have a similar mindset in reference to Islam, and this may be why you are so vehemently opposed to any criticism of Israel:

I'll say this again. If we don't stop the spread of the Islamic religion, its going to kill us, and I do mean kill us.

I never had a problem seeing Islam for what it really was. A militant, death loving, oppressive religion.....

Islam is a militant religion and I can quote you countless passages right out of the latest version of the quran that preaches death and destruction to those who disbelieve in its teachings. Islam is Jihad.

 

It is black and white to me. I wasn't born yet to witness the past biblical atrocities but have read about them in detail. However' date=' its now thats important and the only religion I see doing the killings today, is Islam.

 

Worse still, is that Islam is growing and has tools to kill millions and thats whats scary.[/quote']

 

I see Islam as a very dangerous religion being used by very dangerous people and I see no end to it. In fact, its growing. I see more death and destruction coming in the name of Islam and I'm afraid there is no stopping it.

I see Islamics like Nazis. Spreading hate everywhere. If someone can show me where in the world Islam has been good for something I will read it. But right now, I don't see Christians beheading people in the name of god... Just Islamics.

 

Islam...The devils religion.

....I am worried about the now thats now, and the now in question is caused by a warlike religion that is run by a bunch of murderous barbarians who think blowing up women and little kids is not only a sign of victory for Alla, but gets them bedded by virgins in the afterlife.

However, this does not give the Muslims the right to go out and kill people to defend there "culture". Doing so just shows the world how uncivilized and repulsive their culture/ideology/religion is. Nothing you say is going to gloss over that abomination.

They just like to fight' date=' kill, condemn, burn, rape, behead, fly planes into skyscrapers, blow kids up, stab pregnant women, kidnap, threaten, and build nukes to blow up Israel.

 

Its what they do.[/quote']

 

The islamic religion is flawed and dangerous and all I see is death.

 

I would say it is fairly clear who has the case closed mindset.

[Severian]

This makes me angry so I am giong to say exactly what I think - what a load of emotive BS!! Don't misquote me and don't tell me what I think:mad:

 

\applause

[budullewraagh]

By that logic, I would say it is Hizbullah's responsibility.

Does this even merit response? No- your logic is skewed.

 

I asked you a question about what ELSE can be a solution.. until you answer it, I would have to tell you that I believe Israel is doing it's BEST under a crappy ass situation.

Kindly re-read my posts. I responded to your question with two answers.

 

Wait a minute, you eventually responded to my answers. You said that doing nothing didn't work. Yeah, net losses did occur, but the net losses from the war were bigger. So, maybe by not doing anything the wind blows them back a few inches. By engaging in this war they gain maybe 4/5ths of a step (because of the wind blowing them) and then they go 2.4 steps backwards for a net loss of 1.6 steps. In this same time frame they could have lost only 0.6 steps! Yeah, the situation blows. Actually, a better solution would have been to handle the war better (we've heard that before) by actually caring about the Lebanese civilians instead of calling them all enemies. Had they brought about death and destruction but aided the Lebanese and also told them something like "This is what Hezbollah brings upon you. They don't sound like any friends of yours. Oh, btw, sorry about your village." You have to win over their hearts to really succeed. That would be a step in the right direction (forward) but I'm sure other ways would help. Ex: aid the Lebanese government with conditions that they do what you want with the money. Tell them to make a real army, for example. Get the US to help Lebanon- we have lots more money and will do anything to eliminate terrorism.

 

Actually, you need to prove US wrong.

Throughout my entire posts you can see me proving you wrong. Making mistakes? Perhaps, but what country doesn't. Between THAT and terrorism there's a huge line, friend. Watch your words carefully, back them up with FACTS and not story telling.

 

Such strong words from someone who missed things of which I have already written.

 

I never heard of it. Show me where. Exact quote.

 

I already provided the link. Here it is again:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/28/wmid28.xml

 

Here's another related link:

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/the_moral_culpability_for_qana.html

 

And another:

 

http://news.bostonherald.com/editorial/view.bg?articleid=150983

 

The quote: "Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hizbollah."

-Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon, July 27, 2006.

 

And the alternative is....?

To be pleased with the actions of Israel, the US and/or Hezbollah.

 

Show me where exactly ISRAEL said this. Don't give me someone ELSE saying israel said that. Show me a quote of Israel stating athennyone - including civilians - in southern lebanon are a target. Provide your sources please.

Refer to Haim Ramon's aforementioned quote. Maybe he didn't explicitly say "we're gonna kill everyone!" but he sure implied it. I mean, if everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist then the IDF wouldn't be doing its job if it were to let anyone live. So, terrorism or not? Consider my challenge once again reissued.

 

Also when you say "I know better than you because I fought in a war" I take it as condescending. Sorry man.

 

They don't always, this is why they sent GROUND TROOPS. Those ground troops went into locations that Israel KNEW were filled of enemy forces, and that will be a great threat to the soldiers lives. They did that because they wanted to at least ATTEMPT to avoid collateral damage. ATTEMPT, in a war, is better than nothing. And it's surely better than purposefully put civilians in harms way.

Do you work for the IDF or something?

 

BTW, many other countries in the world tried to convince the lebanese government to get rid of the hizbullah once and for all. Should I remind you how the South-Lebanese army had to FLEE for their lives after Israel left because the Hizbullah entered the territory? Lebanon either has no official power over Hizbullah, or no desire to get rid of them. I'm not talking about the general population, I'm talking about government. It's proven, they ALLOWED this to happen, despite world's requests AND warnings.

Have you seen the Lebanese army? It looks like Hezbollah except less skilled and smaller. Need I remind you that Hezbollah held its own against Israel and effectively "won" the recent month-long war. (Disclaimer: I actually think that wars are never won- they are only ended on terms more favorable to one side.) No, Lebanon has no real ability to rid itself of Hezbollah. Hezbollah also has widespread support amongst the Lebanese population, and for good reason- they warded off the Israeli invaders. For over 20 years they've represented a defiant face standing up to anyone that would attack Lebanon. What do Lebanese civilians care if Hezbollah also attacks Israeli civilians? What do Israelis care if IDF forces attack Palestinians and/or Lebanese civilians? What do Americans care if US soldiers kill Iraqi and/or Afghani civilians? They're all far more concerned for their safety.

 

Perhaps they intend to use cluster bombs to blow up things other than a bunch of terrorists standing in a crowd - you know, thinks like buildings, rocket launchers, and the like.

Then they must be lying when they say that Hezbollah sits around holding babies over their heads just in case someone starts shooting at them.

 

Or a mind-reading terrorist-seeking missile.

I think it'd be interesting to see who that would hit.

 

I just don't think they should be losing any sleep over civilian casualties due to Hezbollah launching rockets from Granny Latifah's kitchen porch.

Right, and because they don't care about civilian casualties they use cluster bombs that will succeed in blowing up Granny Latifah and her family as well as the 2 adjacent homes. It's like getting 3 for the price of 1!

 

Israel TRIED (and still is trying, despite the fact it utterly FAILED each and every time) to have a talk. To have peace agreements, or settlements, or anything of this sort.

But with whom? I still think they should reach out to the government of Lebanon and help them fix their government. It may be too late now with all the civilians shouting "Jihad!" but maybe it's worth a shot.

 

remind people that the great poor bombarded lebanon did NOTHING to stop Hizbullah. They didn't even send their own military.. they didn't even agree to TRY.

Well, after awhile they did offer to send in 15000 soldiers. Not a lot but they don't have much. Also, think of it from their perspective- Israel wasn't making much progress so what would they make? Plus, with their population supporting Hezbollah, the government would have been considered to be misrepresenting its people by "helping the invading enemy" and then we would have had an even more disturbing Lebanon, with Hezbollah actually being the legitimate government.

 

Out of curiosity' date=' can you name a war in which any combatant met the moral standards you are now applying to Israel?

[/quote']

Wars that didn't involve one side saying that civilians were to be considered enemy combatants? Plenty. But more importantly, it still doesn't matter. I really can't say that Israel's actions are justified. Their approach is also not justified. The results are not justified. At the same time, Israel is responsible for its actions.

 

Really' date=' then what should Israel do when their schoolbuses and commuter busses full of CIVILIANS gets blown up by hezballah and hamas. Mind you....they target women and children first. So, you can join budullewraagh, who calls Israel a terrorist state, without telling us what should Israel do.

 

I'm not out to prove either of you wrong because you both have a case closed mindset. The real terrorists love both of you I think..... Sad.

[/quote']

 

Whoops, who's misinformed now? Since recent elections that have put Hamas into political power, Hamas actually hasn't been attacking Israel. When's the last time the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade sent some guy to blow up a bus? And for the record, Hezbollah isn't really into the whole bus-bombing thing. They sit in hills firing off rockets. Sure, they don't have any regard for human life but at least they aren't doing things as deadly as the bus bombings. By the way, it's kind of hard to target just women and children on a commuter bus bombing. Incidentally I also did say what Israel should have done to defend themselves. Also, incidentally, I'm fairly sure no terrorist knows me, so I doubt that any terrorist loves me.

 

I'm going to let tetrahedrite's words speak for me as well. Specifically the ones concerning the offensive nature of your post and your closed-mindedness, sweeping generalizations and overall misinformation. Also, I'd like to thank tetrahedrite for his excellent post and his apparent good taste in philosophical quotes.

 

I really can't believe it's so difficult for you to see. Some guy with a turban and a beard blows himself up on a bus and you call it terrorism. Some guy in a fighter jet drops a bomb on a house with no terrorists in the vicinity and you call it...self defense? Yep, so a few of Israel's soldiers are killed and a few are abducted. Now Israel goes in and indiscriminately attacks everyone in a nation, destroying its infrastructure and killing 789 people, mostly civilians, while suffering 39 civilian deaths and 115 military fatalities. But it's all in righteous defense! Speaking of closed-mindedness, I believe you take the proverbial cake.

[5614]

I have never suggested that I have an answer to the problems in the Middle East

I dislike people who sit saying "its wrong, its wrong, its terrorism" and then have no better or alternative solution that could ever realistically work.

 

At least Israel in Lebanon, America in Iraq, UK and allies in World War 2 are trying to do something good. You just sit there saying there how wrong it is.

 

What's the point in complaining if there is no other way?

___________________

 

Tetrahedrite and budullewraagh, three direct questions:

 

1) Was kidnapping Israeli soldiers from Israeli land an act of peace, or an act or war?

 

2) Was firing rockets into Israel from across the border a friendly import, or a death threat being executed?

 

3) Do you think that what Hezbollah has done is correct? Or is it terrorism?

 

NB: we are ignoring Israel's reactions etc. however you feel, ignore it for these three questions, these are about Hezbollah, not Israel

[budullewraagh]

At least Israel in Lebanon, America in Iraq, UK and allies in World War 2 are trying to do something good. You just sit there saying there how wrong it is.

I'm not so sure Israel has all good intentions. They definitely see the possibility to exploit the situation and I'm positive that they have done so.

 

1) Was kidnapping Israeli soldiers from Israeli land an act of peace, or an act or war?

 

2) Was firing rockets into Israel from across the border a friendly import, or a death threat being executed?

 

3) Do you think that what Hezbollah has done is correct? Or is it terrorism?

 

1. It was an act of war.

2. No. It was a death hope.

3. Morally correct? Shooting rockets randomly into Israel? No. Terrorism? But of course.

 

I'm sure you have a point to make now, so go for it.

[GutZ]

UN "Peacekeeping" forces have been BOOTS ON THE GROUND in Southern Lebanon for 28 years[/i']!

 

All 10 of them.

[Jim]

Wars that didn't involve one side saying that civilians were to be considered enemy combatants? Plenty.

 

I'm not too interested in what the combatants say. I'd just like to know what standard of civility you are using for warfare. Israel is not intentionally targetting civilians although it is true they are aware civilians are going to be killed. The reverse proposition is nonsensical. It is not in Israel's best interests to wantonly kill civilians without a military objective.

 

Do you think it was it unethical for the allies in WWII to bomb industrial facilities in which slave labor was employed? I'd like to understand the standard we must apply to all wars in the future.

 

But more importantly, it still doesn't matter.

 

I'm only trying to understand where you are coming from.

 

I really can't say that Israel's actions are justified. Their approach is also not justified. The results are not justified. At the same time, Israel is responsible for its actions.

 

The results of war are always unpredictable and hard to assess after the fact. You need to compare where we are now with an alternate universe where Israel had taken no military action and only attempted to negotiate for the prisoners. This would have probably meant nother 2:1000 swap which would have further emboldened Hezbollah. It's hard to compare this alternate future with the status quo.

[Severian]

Tetrahedrite and budullewraagh' date=' three direct questions:

 

1) Was kidnapping Israeli soldiers from Israeli land an act of peace, or an act or war?

 

2) Was firing rockets into Israel from across the border a friendly import, or a death threat being executed?

 

3) Do you think that what Hezbollah has done is correct? Or is it terrorism?

 

[i']NB: we are ignoring Israel's reactions etc. however you feel, ignore it for these three questions, these are about Hezbollah, not Israel[/i]

 

Let me answer these too:

 

1. War

2. Huh? It wasn't a death threat. You don't threaten people by killing them. It was an act of war.

3. It is neither. Hezbollah are part of the Lebanese government, so it was an act of war.

[Bettina]

This makes me angry so I am giong to say exactly what I think - what a load of emotive BS!! Don't misquote me and don't tell me what I think:mad:

 

If I had posted something like this I would probably have got a warning from a moderator. In my very honest opinion' date=' I think differnt rules apply to different people. I probably will get one now anyway.

 

 

If your going to accuse me of having a case closed mindset, then you should probably get your facts straight. The current action in Lebanon is against Hezbollah (or Hizbullah), [b']not Hamas[/b]. The two are completely separate entities, but you seem to use them interchangably (your not the only one). Hezbollah has not been involved in suicide bombings for at least seven years. To suggest that the present action in Lebanon is to protect themselves against "their schoolbuses and commuter busses(sic) full of CIVILIANS" getting blown up in suicide attacks is a strawman.

 

 

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that Hezbollah (not Hamas) is targeting woman and children in particular, rather than civilians in general. If you can provide some I will gladly stand up to be corrected, otherwise this is just another emotive strawman.

 

Let me get this quite clear, I have never called Israel a "terrorist state" and I have never suggested that I have an answer to the problems in the Middle East. I have never suggested that I support Hezbollah in any way shape or form.

 

 

This really made me p*ss*d off, and this is where I believe you should of been warned. It is quite clear you are suggesting that Bud. and I support terrorism. I can't speak for Bud., but I do not support terrorism, and have never suggested in this forum that I support terrorism, and never will. It is a logical fallacy to assume that criticism of Israel=support for Hezbollah. I made this quite clear in my post:

 

As for having a case closed mindset, I would suggest to you that you have a similar mindset in reference to Islam, and this may be why you are so vehemently opposed to any criticism of Israel:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would say it is fairly clear who has the case closed mindset.

 

Tetrahedrite...

 

I went back and re-read your post 216 and I owe you an apology. Your right, I let my emotions dictate without thinking out what you said. It was clear that you don't consider Israel a terrorist state and I don't think that of you. I'm sorry for getting you ticked off. You didn't deserve that one from me.

 

As far as warnings go, you don't deserve one, and as for me, I hope I'm treated like everyone else. I don't mind getting slapped if I have it coming because how am I going to learn anything if I don't. Again... I'm sorry.

 

In this link you provided http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah I found this to back up what I think about that terrorist group...

 

Although Hezbollah has denounced attacks on Western civilians, it makes an exception in the case of Israel. Nasrallah stated that "in occupied Palestine there is no difference between a soldier and a civilian

 

About Hezbollah and Hamas being different entities I don't agree. They both want Israel destroyed so that puts them in the same bottle as far as what has been discussed in this thread. Instead of shooting rockets at soldiers, they send them into the poplulated cities for the sole purpose of killing civilians.

 

And as far as the rest of your post... your correct. I do think that way about Islam because its what I see in the news and read in the Koran. I will never apologize for any statement I've made against the Islamic religion. Its a vile, militant religion with a broad agenda. I defend Israel and proud of it.

 

Bettina

[Bettina]

\applause

 

Expected response from you. I'm glad I stopped taking you seriously.

 

Bee

[mooeypoo]

Does this even merit response? No- your logic is skewed.

so what you're saying is that no one should take ANY form of responsibility' date=' but Israel should take ALL of it. No one should be judged by the same measures you pick to judge Israel so severely.

 

Lovely.

 

You said that doing nothing didn't work. Yeah, net losses did occur, but the net losses from the war were bigger.

 

No, they weren't.

 

 

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/terrorism- obstacle to peace/palestinian terror since 2000/Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism sinc

 

^^ This, may I remind you, the Intifada started by the palestinian AUTHORITY(!) after Israel offered great deals of COMPROMISE never head of before in israel.

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_process_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Camp_David_2000_Summit

In 2000' date=' US President Bill Clinton convened a peace summit between Palestinian President Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak reportedly offered the Palestinian leader approximately 95% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, but Prime Minister Barak proposed that 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel. He also proposed "temporary Israeli control" indefinitely over another 10% of the West Bank territory--an area including many more Jewish settlements. According to Palestinian sources, the remaining area would be under Palestinian control, yet certain areas would be broken up by Israeli bypass roads and checkpoints. Depending on how the security roads would be configured, these Israeli roads might impede free travel by Palestinians throughout their proposed nation and reduce the ability to absorb Palestinian refugees. President Arafat rejected this offer. President Clinton reportedly requested that President Arafat make a counter-offer, but he proposed none. No tenable solution was crafted which would satisfy both Israeli and Palestinian demands, even under intense U.S. pressure.

[/quote']

Even if you add those numbers up, you see that:

1. The israeli demand to have 10% of the west bank territory was because of fear of terrorist attacks (giving the palestinians "Area A - under their full control" in Gaza proved to just produce more terrorist suicide bombers.

2. It still is a good offer for the palestinians; 95% of the west bank is something they know they would'nt get more of (for the reason I stated above) and something Israel never offered before.

3. Even if this was NOT accepted by them, they could've continued the deliberations. We had PEACE TALKS. That's SOMETHING isn't it? Instead, they started the bloody murderous intifada.

 

No, there were no less dying.

 

That said, there is another aspect to your silly idea:

 

For six years Israel HAS SAT IDLY BY. Israel "took your idea" - and did nothing. We had injured, killed, and our northern-cities economy and way of life fell downhill. We did nothing, in fear of escalating the situation.

 

The CURRENT situation is far from being similar. In the current situation, we had active missiles FIRED on top of civilian cities.

 

Would YOUR country sat idly by?

 

Would you even FORGIVE your country if it sat idly by forever while you are being continuously targetted 90 missiles A DAY (!!!!)?

 

That idea failed. Read up history. And the ironic thing, is that we keep trying it. We keep trying to "be the bigger person" countrywise and ATTEMPT to ignore some of the actions the Arab nations pull in order to escalate the situation.

 

There are just times that this escalation goes WAY too far for a country not to defend itself.

 

Actually, a better solution would have been to handle the war better (we've heard that before) by actually caring about the Lebanese civilians instead of calling them all enemies.

Until you supply a VALID source for this claim, I will just ignore it. Stop throwing propaganda. Israel never said it, and if you claim Israel did, SHOW US.

 

Had they brought about death and destruction but aided the Lebanese and also told them something like "This is what Hezbollah brings upon you. They don't sound like any friends of yours. Oh, btw, sorry about your village."

You really do NOT know your history do you.

 

The southern-labanon army was Israel's attempt to HELP LEBANON defend itself against Hizbullah. It started with Lebanon's request (imagine that). Israel aided in both education and training to soldiers OF THE STATE against the militias that hurt them.

 

When Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, however, expecting the military of Southern Lebanon to STAY as a permanent force applying the government's will, they got another thing coming. Southern Lebanon Military had to FLEE for their lives. Their beloved Lebanon did NOTHING to help them.

 

We tried that too. We even gave sanctuary to those Southern Lebanon Military soldiers, after their OWN COUNTRY wanted to just butcher them all.

 

READ. HISTORY.

 

Ex: aid the Lebanese government with conditions that they do what you want with the money. Tell them to make a real army, for example. Get the US to help Lebanon- we have lots more money and will do anything to eliminate terrorism.

We tried. We tried. We tried. Read up history, stop throwing untrue claims to the air, geesh. READ!

 

Other than that, let me tell you something: The world doesn't operate "one front at a time". While we are at this war - attempting to STOP the missiles (this is the entire purpose of this battle), we STILL operate on the political front. No one thinks (and Israeli official STATE this) that this war will get us towards PEACE.

It's not the purpose of this war. This is a no-choice war to STOP hizbullah missiles.

 

Peace - or a cease fire, as you can see happening now - will and have resulted only by talks.

 

But the fact we want to talk doesn't mean we are willing to be bombarded and have our civilians killed during the process.

 

How 'bout you stop blaiming Israel for everything, and start blaiming the LEBANEZE GOVERNMENT, who instead of taking RESPONSIBILITY over its own damn land and kick Hizbullah's ass with OFFICIAL MILITARY POWER (trust me, Israel would help in WHATEVER they wanted; we've done it before). Instead, the Lebaneze government just REFUSES to any kind of help from the world: When the world asked for an official Peace Keeping force, the Lebaneze insisted it will have no official POWER to stop hizbullah. When the world asked to disown Hizbullah and throw it out of the government (for it acting AGAINST the country's best interrest), the Lebaneze refused.

 

There are TWO SIDES to peace talks. Demanding Israel would stop its fights to defend itself must come with ANOTHER SIDE'S promise that Israel won't HAVE to defend itself.

 

Such strong words from someone who missed things of which I have already written.

Well, post them again. I haven't seen ANYTHING VALID (and I stress VALID) to prove Israel is being a terrorist State.

 

To be pleased with the actions of Israel, the US and/or Hezbollah.

I want to be "pleased" aswell. You have yet to give me a valid solution for peace in the region. We don't live in a fairy tale, where you can just be "PLEASED" with the world and that being enough.

 

Refer to Haim Ramon's aforementioned quote. Maybe he didn't explicitly say "we're gonna kill everyone!" but he sure implied it. I mean, if everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist then the IDF wouldn't be doing its job if it were to let anyone live. So, terrorism or not? Consider my challenge once again reissued.

So now you DO ADMIT you called Israel terrorist state. Well, that's at least better than ignoreing your own words.

 

I have never heard this coming from Haim Ramon's mouth, but to be honest, I could believe it did in the spur of the moment. People sometimes speak from their stomach. There are people killed, remember? I am far from justifying this remark. If this was said as it was (in context), then Minister Ramon should be fired from the government. I truely believe that.

 

That said, let me tell you another thing:

 

A Country's war-effort ethics and methods are judged by their ACTIONS in war, and not by what they are SAYING. If Israel were to send a nuclear bomb over lebanon, but their ministers would say "We love peace!" you'd take WORDS with less validity. And you would be right. While words SHOULD be calculated - specifically by politicians - the fact that ONE said it, doesn't mean it is the way Israel fights.

 

And all you need to do is LOOK at the way Israel fights, to see what the agenda is.

 

If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon (with no regards to civilians) as a threat, then ground forces -- more likely to be hurt, killed or fail -- would not be sent in. We love our soldiers. We would just send planes and plow the area. Boom. No southern lebanon. Everyone knows we HAVE the power to do that.

 

And yet: Israel didn't. It chose to risk the soldiers in a more hazardous type of battle, than to just plow through the area with bombs. What does that tell you?

 

If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon a threat, and cared nothing about civilians, it would've just blown buildings to ashes WITHOUT notice. Notice to the enemy makes no strategic sense; it tells the enemy WHERE you are going to attack next. Does that sound like a good strategy for a conquering army? What does THAT tell you?

 

If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon a threat, then the military operation would first be completed, israeli presence would be continously KEPT in southern lebanon to PRESERVE the "security-territory" and keep the rocket launchers AWAY from the border.

Instead, they adhered to the ceasefire not only by stopping the fighting, but by pulling forces OUT.

What does THAT tell you?

 

So yes. War is also about what people say, and Minister Ramon should be sent home in shame for what he's said. But the fact he claimed it doesn't make it true. Israel's prime minister said DIFFERENT things, ALL THE TIME. Israel's chief of staff said COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE - continuously.

 

Chosing who you quote is a nice thing, but it is showing a distorted image of the situation.

 

 

Also when you say "I know better than you because I fought in a war" I take it as condescending. Sorry man.

First, I am a woman. Second, I didn't say I know BETTER THAN YOU, I said I KNOW from personal experience. I never claimed to know what you know, I just stated what I KNOW.

 

Third, you may take it whichever way you chose. Luckily for all the scientists in SFN, I don't take their words as condecending when they say "I know better than you since I studied Physics and explored this theory" as condecending. They don't condecende, they just speak the truth.

 

Do you work for the IDF or something?

Is that your way of avoiding dealing with my point?

 

Have you seen the Lebanese army? It looks like Hezbollah except less skilled and smaller. Need I remind you that Hezbollah held its own against Israel and effectively "won" the recent month-long war.

The war was a lot longer than one month, you keep forgetting the ISRAELI SIDE OF THINGS -- six years (and more) of constant bombardments, and deaths.

 

That said, you DO NOT READ YOUR DAMN HISTORY. It's like talking to a brick wall. We TRIED to help Lebaneze army get a good stand and help kick hizbullah's ass. The LEBANEZE GOVERNMENT REFUSED.

 

What, in god's name, do you expect Israel to do when their civilians are being bombarded with 100+ missiles A DAY.

 

Lebanon is the one in need to take RESPONSIBILITY and KICK the HIZBULLAH out! If they can't, they can ask the world for help: I can SWEAR to you, that both Israel and the USA, and aaaaallll the european countries, will jump to their help in WHATEVER they want. But instead, they REFUSE help of any sort in ridding themselves of hizbullah. They refuse to get ANY presence in the area that halps fighting Hizbullah.

They keep calling Hizbullah's actions JUST.

 

And you call ISRAEL a state of terrorism. Interresting.

 

Then they must be lying when they say that Hezbollah sits around holding babies over their heads just in case someone starts shooting at them.

No one said that. What they did say (and show) is that Hizbullah takes civilian buildings to put their rocket launchers in. They put their rocket launchers in Mosques, their targetters inside buildings with civilians in them.

 

When the Israeli military wishes to bombard ONLY the specific location, without causing harm to civilians, they drop leaflets WARNING PEOPLE to get the crap OUT of places where hizbullah has a big-ass-cannot-be-missed missile launcher. The media never tells you about the places where Israeli forces actually managed to hit ONE FLOOR inside a building (that happens a lot actually) where the terrorist was in. But again; this is not a perfect world. Bombs are not superaccurate. Civilians should know better than to allow MISSILE LAUNCHERS in their front yard, and stay in that yard drinking coffee.

 

Other than that, Israel has other targets. Like full BUILDINGS serving the hizbullah, or military posts. Those will be blown with bombs. No civilians inside THERE, and if there are, it would be the same as them bringing children to actively fight in a war (Which.. they did! History again! Sagger Children!! read up, I'm tired of doing the work for you, If you don't find it, I'll help).

 

But with whom? I still think they should reach out to the government of Lebanon and help them fix their government. It may be too late now with all the civilians shouting "Jihad!" but maybe it's worth a shot.

Dude, you are making no sense. What the hell do you mean "with who"???? With who do you WANT peace talks to be TRIED! With a country! With representatives of Hizbullah (ha! Imagine that!) with representatives of LEBANON!

 

Do you really claim Israel should commence its peace talks with the CIVILIANS of lebanon?

 

Should I remind you that the GOVERNMENT was elected? It represents (or SUPPOSED TO) the people???

 

It's amazing. Everything Israel does is not good for you. Give us a damn solution, or stop being a hypocrite!

 

"with who.." JESUS.

 

Well, after awhile they did offer to send in 15000 soldiers.

They didn't send them though.

 

They don't LACK support from the world. They would've had help from the USA, the UN, Israel and Europe to keep their forces enforcing Lebanese rules.

 

They didn't do that. They refused to have any kind of active force AIDING THEM in ridding themselves from Hizbullah.

 

God. This is so frustrating,man, you are not reading up on your history. Or your current events. "They offered" Shit, Israel offered to give 95% of the west bank to the palestinians! Wars and Peace don't fall on OFFER. They fall on ACTIONS.

 

GIVE ME A VALID ALTERNATIVE.

 

 

Wars that didn't involve one side saying that civilians were to be considered enemy combatants? Plenty.

Instead of saying "Plenty", how 'bout you actually NAME SOME.

 

It IS important. You bring issues into this debate that belong to peace-time, not to wartime. War has casualties. Yah. We know. Nobody likes it either.

 

The results are not justified. At the same time, Israel is responsible for its actions.

So is lebanon.

 

Whoops, who's misinformed now? Since recent elections that have put Hamas into political power, Hamas actually hasn't been attacking Israel.

YOU are misinformed.

 

1. Many attacks were prevented; Israel caught the terrorist just before he blew himself out.

 

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

and

http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_attacks.htm

and many more.

 

LOOOK IIITTTT UUPPPPP before you claim stupid claims.

 

And may I remind you that HAMAS (a terrrorist organization hitting non-israeli targets ASWELL, ahem) never took off the clause in its manifesto calling for the distruction of Israel.

 

When's the last time the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade sent some guy to blow up a bus?

We don't talk about El Qaeda, though these organizations ARE connected, in some form or another.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1145961243718

 

and you state that I am the one spreading misinformation.

 

Judging oneself on higher ethics than the rest of the world is called being a hypocrite.

 

I really can't believe it's so difficult for you to see. Some guy with a turban and a beard blows himself up on a bus and you call it terrorism.

Oh geesh, you're right, we should call it "children playing 'how many pieces can a bus be split into'".

 

Terrorism? Who dares calling a muslim blowing up a bus full of children muslim terrorism! Who dares!

 

Some guy in a fighter jet drops a bomb on a house with no terrorists in the vicinity and you call it...self defense?

if it was "some guy" you might've bene right. If it was "no terrorists in the civinity" you might've been right.

 

But both are wrong.

 

Start reading up your OWN PEOPLE'S HISTORY, friend.

 

And you still haven't offered any VALID solution; or any VALID way Israel could've dealth with the situation without going to an armed battle against hizbullah.

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

Oops, sorry, wasn't supposed to split that thread. ERASED and passed to the last one.

 

~moo

[MM]

I did understand. I was referring to your first question in your earlier posts that you never answered. The war could not have been avoided because rockets were being fired into Israel from Lebanon. With Hamas on one side and then Hezbollah coming into play on the other was too dangerous to leave unchecked. Complaining to the U.N. and waiting for an answer would have taken months from my short experience. Israel stands alone in this world and they rightfully fear for their existance. Doing what they did was the only thing that gets the U.N. to wake up.

 

Your second question on what Israel should do now is easy. Pack up' date=' leave, and let the U.N. handle Lebanon per the agreements. You have to at least do that but I don't believe the next war can be avoided. Fanatical Islam has no rules but the sword. Thats all they know.

 

Bee[/quote']

 

It's pretty clear what question I've answered. Namely what should Israel do in the Israel-Lebanon conflict to protect its people. As you wrote about various terror tactics it still applies to the Palestinian conflict since harmonization between people trough trade/(services) will lessen the support for terrorists and subsequently the recruitment.

 

So in short peace will come when Israel values Arab children as much as their own.

[mooeypoo]

So in short peace will come when Israel values Arab children as much as their own.

 

Interesting concept.

 

I would like to know why you think Israel doesn't value Palenstinian children today (not trying to pick a fight here, just truely interrested to know where you reached that conclusion).

 

Israel also tried to build trade centers with Palestinian State (Israel had a project to build a big marina and port in Gaza, to improve the Palestinian economy and perhaps get tourism). It started out, actually, but the situation (suicide bombers, Israeli workers being targetted inside Gaza and Palestinian government renouncing its support on the project) caused it to be put aside.

 

The project, btw, was supposed to be completely paid for by Israel, having the Palestinian Authority "pay back" with time as a commerce treaty may be formed.

 

It.. failed..

 

I would actually think that Palestinian Authority cares less about their own children. You see three year olds dressed as Martyrs in the streets in their mother's arms, while their mothers yell "my son will be a shahid".. there is no doubt that the problem of brain washing in the palestinian territory is incredible, but I am not sure what Israel can do about this.

 

Here's a good article about it (I have more, if you guys want, but you can also find many online. It's a widespread phenomena, unfortunately):

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11685

 

Here's another unfortunate representation of the brainwashing that goes on in the Palestinian Authority:

http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2003/283/pmw-shahada.html

 

It is believed that Israel needs to aid in resources, but that tends to be quite difficult when the money and resources we send are being eaten by the government officials, or when Israeli workers (Phone companies, for instance, to fix phone lines) are being shot to death by Palestinian snipers out of national 'reasons'.

 

I wish there was a way to affect the Palestinian Schools. Those are constantly teaching hate and martyrdom, and when a person is being raised on those ideals, it is very difficult to speak to them, or expect much of a peace talk to commence in the future.

 

 

~moo

[Severian]

I would like to know why you think Israel doesn't value Palenstinian children today

 

Granted this is a Lebanese child, not a Palestinian, but I think you probably take the point.

[mr d]

hello

 

for the moment the cease fire seems to be holding, for what it is worth. but what does it all add up to.

was isreali actions wrong? no, if you are a sovernd nation you can not allow attacks on your troops or civilians to occur unchallenged.

is hezbollah wrong? if they truely believe in their cause then no. if there is no way to negotiate the situation, and use of force is your only option than you use force.

do i lend some creedence to hezbollahs claim that they siezed the soldiers hoping to exchange them for their fighters held by the isreali's. to a large extent yes. kidnapping by both sides to bring about prisoner trades has been going on for decades.

did hezbollah make a greavous miscalculation over ireali's responce. quite obviously. did isreal make a miscalculation over hezbollahs abilities to continue operations even when under heavy attack by a large mechanized force aided by air superiority. the fact hezbollah could continue firing rockets at about the same rate reguardless of the bombardment demonstrates a greater level of command and control that what the isreali military probably believed existed.

remember one of isreali's first stated objectives was to take out hezbollah's c&c infrastructure. destroyed a huge amount of communications capability throughout lebanon. but what they failed to understand is in a world of mordern commuications with wireless laptops and cels phones, rganized forces trained to use such do not need the traditional equipment that they destroyed.

so how do i see it stacking up so far.

main winner hezbollah. not that they did any great battlefield deeds, but they did not have to. isreali's stated oal was to destroy them and their infrastructure. they survived and the infrastucture still holds. plus they won the propaganda war, which in reality was probably more important than the ground war. though many moderate muslims at first held hezbollah more to blame for the shelling, the intensity and high causalty amoung civilians lead many to change their support to hezbollah. as they saw their cities destroyed and people killed, by what they percieve (and to some extent true) a western/u.s. backed force. nations that came to save their civilians but did nothing to prevent the isreali's from carrying out the war as they saw fit.

what does isreal win. time. in a war that is for the survival of your nation, any act that prolongs your existance is a victory. also the fact that hezbollah could continue to launch as many rockets as they have shows that there was, and still is, heavy buildup of weapons in the area that truely do pose a threat to them. their biggest loss. public opinion.

biggest loser. the rest of us. unfortunately this little conflict probably just swelled the ranks of terrorist organizations around the world. many islamic believers now see this as futher proof that west, especially america, cares little about muslim people. also this war and that little affair in iraq shows that both the u.s. military and the isreali defense forces can be taken on. they are no longer are the 800 pound gorrillas fear.

what's left isreal and hezbollah will make a trade for fighters for soldiers. remember that little raid isreal conducted into northern lebanon. mainly for intell' but do recall they went out of their way to sieze fighters. their trading tokens. why do i think that a trade is what hezbollah originally intended. how many of you remember see those two soldiers being decapitated on some nice webcast. no, hezbollah wanted them for some other reason.

well until the next time

 

mr d

[mooeypoo]

Yeh, pictures have great influence.

 

Sadly, these have great influence aswell:

 

And these.

 

 

And I've chosen the mild ones.

 

Also, this is a nice refference to explain why pictures are not always telling the truth: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/9/Do+pictures+always+tell+the+truth.htm

 

Pictures are usually one sided. There is no doubt people get hurt in war, but the question of whether or not Palestinian children (and Hizbullah followers) are brainwashed, is practically proven, if you search the net not too hard.

 

The point of my post was not to compare lives, it was to show why the situation is crappy. Why a dramatic change in education is also needed as part of the peace process.

 

~moo

[Severian]

Pictures are usually one sided. There is no doubt people get hurt in war' date=' but the question of whether or not Palestinian children (and Hizbullah followers) are brainwashed, is practically proven, if you search the net not too hard.

[/quote']

 

That is all very well - I was just answering your question.

[Pangloss]

Poorly.

 

This thread has degraded into straw men and name-calling. It's on a short leash and headed for closure.

[MM]

Interesting concept.

 

I would like to know why you think Israel doesn't value Palenstinian children today (not trying to pick a fight here' date=' just truely interrested to know where you reached that conclusion).

 

Israel also tried to build trade centers with Palestinian State (Israel had a project to build a big marina and port in Gaza, to improve the Palestinian economy and perhaps get tourism). It started out, actually, but the situation (suicide bombers, Israeli workers being targetted inside Gaza and Palestinian government renouncing its support on the project) caused it to be put aside.

 

The project, btw, was supposed to be completely paid for by Israel, having the Palestinian Authority "pay back" with time as a commerce treaty may be formed.

 

It.. failed..

 

I would actually think that Palestinian Authority cares less about their own children. You see three year olds dressed as Martyrs in the streets in their mother's arms, while their mothers yell "my son will be a shahid".. there is no doubt that the problem of brain washing in the palestinian territory is incredible, but I am not sure what Israel can do about this.

 

Here's a good article about it (I have more, if you guys want, but you can also find many online. It's a widespread phenomena, unfortunately):

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11685

 

Here's another unfortunate representation of the brainwashing that goes on in the Palestinian Authority:

http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2003/283/pmw-shahada.html

 

It is believed that Israel needs to aid in resources, but that tends to be quite difficult when the money and resources we send are being eaten by the government officials, or when Israeli workers (Phone companies, for instance, to fix phone lines) are being shot to death by Palestinian snipers out of national 'reasons'.

 

I wish there was a way to affect the Palestinian Schools. Those are constantly teaching hate and martyrdom, and when a person is being raised on those ideals, it is very difficult to speak to them, or expect much of a peace talk to commence in the future.

 

 

~moo[/quote']

 

Actually I wrote that in protest to a quote attributed to Golda Meir "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.". I sense that you also think like this by the way you are reasoning regarding Palestinian children dressed up as fighters. I wrote it hoping that both sides would come to realize that both concepts are flawed, they just put the whole blame on the other. The point is that both sides need to be a little more self-reflecting, what can they do themselves to promote peace.

 

You have not convinced me the premise is wrong just by claiming failure for something that wasn't even fully tested. Do you also feel this way about the premise for the Israel-Lebanon conflict ?

 

Which of these schools http://www.palestine-net.com/education/ teach hate and martyrdom?

[Bettina]

You are an amazing person Mooey. Those photos are not only awful but a reminder of what kind of world Israel and other civilized unions are living in... and of the people who don't want to do anything to help make it better.

 

Sometimes I really hate this world and the thought of any kind of God.

 

Bee

[mooeypoo]

That is all very well - I was just answering your question.

I know, and since I understood from your point where the idea that Israel doesn't care about children came from, I decided to point out why I think this idea is flawed.

 

The meaning was not to say the picture you've given is wrong, it was just to say it's irrelevant.. pictures are usually one sided. Mine are too, obviously.

 

By the way; NOW - after the gun fire died out in the ceasefire - israel starts to look into its own actions. As I said before, Israel is far from being an angel, and the country itself knows it. There are already (quite soon) inquiries into the behaviour and decision making of the government and military.

 

This doesn't make that war any less justified though, it just shows that Israel - like all other countries - is not perfect. But unlike many countries, specifically in Israel's region, Israel is actually DOING something with it. The fact Ethics is being debated with such strong will inside the country when the blood didn't even dry on the ground, shows how much it IS important to us.

 

Actually I wrote that in protest to a quote attributed to Golda Meir "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.". I sense that you also think like this by the way you are reasoning regarding Palestinian children dressed up as fighters. I wrote it hoping that both sides would come to realize that both concepts are flawed, they just put the whole blame on the other. The point is that both sides need to be a little more self-reflecting, what can they do themselves to promote peace.

Oh, I completely agree, MM. Israel needs to take responsibility on MANY things its done utterly wrong. But the debate as it seemed to be going for the past few posts seemed to be judging Israel ONLY, with no concideration of its surrounding countries.

And again, I will repeat this notion, since I think it is one of the best aspects of Israel: The fact we are continuously debating and criticising the WAY our government and military and intelligence behaves, KNOWING that we are in constant war for our lives (when a bus explodes in your neighborhood, it's a war for your life), show how much we at least TRY.

 

Palestinians don't do that, though, and it is a huge difference. When a country has checks and balances, it may be not perfect, but it at least has a potential and desire to be more ethical. When a country refuses to check itself, and declares the things Palenstinians declare, or educate their youngs to utterly hate jews and incorporate hatered in their educational system, and when the parents are pushing the idea aswell, you have a country that is less likely to commence talking.

 

This is also very frustrating. I want peace. I want peace so much, I am willing to give half my country (historically, the territories i am talking about belong to the jews, and yet i am willing to give them) - territories that have the blood of my people, fighting on them for two millenia - for peace. It's frustrating because it doesn't seem like there is a true organization that is willing to talk peace in the other side.

 

You have not convinced me the premise is wrong just by claiming failure for something that wasn't even fully tested. Do you also feel this way about the premise for the Israel-Lebanon conflict ?

I'm sorry, MM, it might be my bad english (and I don't mean this as cynical), I just kinda lost you.. I.. don't understand your question.. failure of what? uhm.. please explain, I missed your point for the question.

 

About the schools: The teaching of hate and martyrdom is incorporated throughout the educational system. Not only schools, also after-school activities, media, etc. A child is being brainwashed. You see it every day in Israel, sadly.

 

I really recommend a movie that is far from being biased towards Israel, and shows a true situation that happens in Gaza in relation to the kids. It's an HBO production, called "Death in Gaza", by James Miller (who was killed at the end of the movie by a gunshot, not sure which side, but thought to be Israeli). He speaks about the children in the Gaza strip, and their ideas.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BBOU90/104-8157863-4744707?v=glance&n=130

 

If you have any way to get it in DVD, watch it. It's very powerful, and shows a very honest picture about the area, in terms of the new generation there, and what is happening to it.

 

Bettina: Thanks for the compliment It's nice to hear some good sides about a country that is in the middle of a continuous conflict, and has the most horrible public relations in the known universe.

BTW, this is another thing that the israeli civilians are angry about - the bad PR. The arabs know how to use Media to their advantage and create the best PR they can get, while Israel neglects that side for the entire duration of its short existance. No wonder many of the people in the world just decide whos side they're on without knowing the facts; we neglect to SHOW our side..

 

PR is so important.. show both sides' PR, and let the average user do the check and cross-refferencing for himself, to see what is truely going on. Otherwise, people go by strong feelings or pictures of crying mothers on CNN. While Israeli crying mothers are not broadcasted..

 

~moo

[5614]

1. It was an act of war.

2. No. It was a death hope.

3. Morally correct? Shooting rockets randomly into Israel? No. Terrorism? But of course.

 

I'm sure you have a point to make now' date=' so go for it.[/quote']No, I have no specific point, I just wondered.

 

And thanks for replying Serverian.

 

Now I've thought of a point, about how you feel personally, so you (bud/severian) both think that what Hezbollah did was an act of war. However you don't seem to like much what Israel did in response. So do you think Israel should have gone to war, but in a different way, how? Or do you think Israel should have never gone to war?

 

If the 2nd (no war) then what hope did they have of getting the kidnapped soldiers back (except by exchange of many hundreds of Lebanese which is an unfair exchange)? And what chance did Israel have of stopping the rocket attacks?

 

What I'm trying to get it is, do you think that Israel should have gone to war but differently from how it has done, and how do you think it should have fought? Or do you just think Israel should never have gone to war (in which case see para above)?