"Stop the war now" - I'd rather die tommorow

[Dak]

No, the guys I’m talking about have tyrannical tendencies. They fuse religion and political power and pedophilia has nothing to do with any of this.

 

I see what your saying (and agree), but i was just talking about the resistance to the phrase, not neccesarily it's validity. I think 'islamofacists' smacks of propoganda. Given the connotations of 'facist', we may as well call them 'the baddies'... it'd be true, but it'd still sound like we're using an emotive, propogandic term in leu of logic. For me at least, the natural instinct is to resist terms like this.

 

Again, i'm not saying this is what you're doing, but that it might account for the resistance to the label.

 

Having said that, other than the fact that the term sounds wrong, i don't really see any reason not to use it. i'd actually go for islamonazis myself, if i knew enough about the situation to be sure that the term was fitting.

 

I agree with your points about 'christeonazi' groups being born in bigotry and using christianity as a justification, rather than born in christianity per se, but im cynical enough to suspect that theres an element of that in islamonaziism aswell... and I suspect that you may have underestimated the significance of religion in groups such as the kkk, the nazis etc.

 

even in britain -- where christianity certainly isn't something that one would associate with the average british skin-head -- the bnp's (litterally british nazi party) manifesto inlcudes something along the lines of reinstating christianity as britains sole official religeon. I dont remember it in detail, but i remember, when i read the bnp manifesto, that the parts conserning christianity really seemed juxtaposed next to the more standard, you-would-expect-it-of-a-british-skin-head bigotry, and, yet, they were still there -- because it was a nazi manifesto, and nazi's are christian.

 

imo, 'islamofascists', nazis, the kkk etc are all part of the same grouping, which has the following charectoristics:

 

1/ we're bigoted shit-heads.

2/ also, we're religious

3/ lets kill people

 

 

so, i think the comparison is apt, if not completley accurate.

 

on an unrelated note, the kkk's website is one of the worst designed i've ever seen, and the fact that a website of evil is "best viewed with microsoft internet explorer" amused me.

[Sisyphus]

 

on an unrelated note' date=' the kkk's website is one of the worst designed i've ever seen, and the fact that a website of evil is "best viewed with microsoft internet explorer" amused me.[/quote']

 

Ah, but the Church of Satan website is "made with a Mac!"

 

Seriously, though, I think you're right about the connotations. I suspect there's far too much baggage in the word "fascist" for it to be used in a non-FOX News kind of way. We need another word.

[aguy2]

Seriously' date=' though, I think you're right about the connotations. I suspect there's far too much baggage in the word "fascist" for it to be used in a non-FOX News kind of way. We need another word.[/quote']

 

I agree that we need another word or term. I had been using "Wahabist Death Cult", but this term would only cover the sunni fighters and would have many of the drawbacks of a term like "Islamofascist".

 

How about "Islamic War Cults"? I tend to think that the west's best hope of victory will come when mainstream muslims see that the dishonorable, murderous, asymetrical warfare practiced by the cultist warriors is an unexceptable interpetation of Gabriel's messages to Mohammad.

aguy2

[Jim]

I agree that we need another word or term. I had been using "Wahabist Death Cult"' date=' but this term would only cover the sunni fighters and would have many of the drawbacks of a term like "Islamofascist".

 

How about "Islamic War Cults"? I tend to think that the west's best hope of victory will come when mainstream muslims see that the dishonorable, murderous, asymetrical warfare practiced by the cultist warriors is an unexceptable interpetation of Gabriel's messages to Mohammad.

aguy2[/quote']

 

 

War Cults does not imply that the enemy would impose tyranny, which they would....

 

I've not heard anything better than Islamofascists.

 

Islamic Totalitarianists?

[Sisyphus]

Theocrats?

[Jim]

Is anyone watching David Gregory interviewing Condi? They guys is a frackin (yes, BG is my favorite TV show) idiot.

 

He actually just asked her whether she REALLY knew what would happen in the future. For once, I wish she would drop her reserve and body slam the twerp.

 

Yes, I've had a scotch this Friday night.

[bob000555]

The whole idea that that Israel must stop is simply ridiculous we have given them about 2 weeks to fight back, we have been at war with Al-Qaeda for 5 years(we invaded Afghanistan on October 7, 2001). To say that Israel doesn’t have the right to defend its self from rocket attacks and retaliate for its troops being kidnapped is equivalent to striping it of its nationhood.

[darkangel199]

Having just returned from vacation i see i have a lot of threads to post non anti-muslim posts in but i wanted to address Bettina's ridiculous neigbhor analogy. fine they kill the kid. So the neighbor says "screw this i am gonna get them now" so they dig up the driveway and sidewalks dig up the yard, burn the barn down and then burn down the entire house, not realizing that the family that lives their had nothing to do with the war, its just some scummy guy they rented their basement out to.

 

But its too late because as they burned down the house the killed the original occupants who had nothing to do with it as well. What do you think would happen to this neighbor who was just getting revenge for his dead child? would all the neighbors say "oh, he was acting in self defense, even though he torched the house and destroyed the land not to mention kill everyone in the house, it was just self defense. and if Lebannon actually had Nukes do you think Israel would simply invade so easily? no because then Israel could actually suffer major damage from any retaliation from the actual government whose country is being destroyed.

 

Do you people honestly think that merely carpet bombing the southern half of a country will end the conflict? and when does it go from merely Self defense to terror? the people of Lebanon live in constant fear of being bombed just like the Israelis do, they do't know where a bomb will drop either. Yet when Israel does it its called Self defense right? when Israel uses their advanced laser guided bombs and kills kids its fine to call it an accident right? but when the other side merely uses a much more crude way of doing the exact same thing its called terrorism?

 

To use Bettina's analogy once more if i throw rocks at Bettina's car she has a right to burn my entire house to the ground? if i hit her kid and leave him unconscious then the moral equivelence is she shooting my entire family and burning my house down? The problem is some people are automatically against any country in them iddle east that isnt Israel and will deny any reasoning that maybe they are just as much at fault as the other groups. Afterall Israel still has over 900 palestinians and Lebanese in prison, but its fine to call them prisoners and not kidnap victims? why is it different when one side does it? They are both fighting the same war, the only difference is Israel has American made bombs and jets and helicopters and The other groups have Iranian and Chinese made rockets...

[Pangloss]

Well that's your point of view, and you're entitled to it. Mine differs. I don't think Israel has gone too far, I think the Lebanese public shares a great deal of responsibility for the profligation of both Hezbollah and terrorism in general, and I have yet to see any evidence that Israel, unlike Hezbollah, has deliberately targetted civilians.

 

Your last paragraph is invalid, at least where I live, because we have rule of law in my country. We transfer the human right of justice to the state in order to achieve a higher level of accuracy and consistency, and tackle the larger problem of crime in general. That is not the case when it comes to matters between nation-states.

[bob000555]

darkangel199, It is not as though we support needless killing of the Lebanese but there are terrorists in that country and Israel certainly has the right to get rid of them and make them stop firing rockets at them. It isn’t using carpet-bombing to do this, they target the terrorists. Also it is partly the Lebanese people's responsibility for allowing Hezbollah to enter their country. And to say “They are booth fighting the same war” is ridiculous, Hezbollah fights to destroy Israel and Israel fights only to defend it’s right to exist and its people!

[Bettina]

Having just returned from vacation i see i have a lot of threads to post non anti-muslim posts in but i wanted to address Bettina's ridiculous neigbhor analogy. fine they kill the kid. So the neighbor says "screw this i am gonna get them now" so they dig up the driveway and sidewalks dig up the yard' date=' burn the barn down and then burn down the entire house, not realizing that the family that lives their had nothing to do with the war, its just some scummy guy they rented their basement out to.

 

But its too late because as they burned down the house the killed the original occupants who had nothing to do with it as well. What do you think would happen to this neighbor who was just getting revenge for his dead child? would all the neighbors say "oh, he was acting in self defense, even though he torched the house and destroyed the land not to mention kill everyone in the house, it was just self defense. and if Lebannon actually had Nukes do you think Israel would simply invade so easily? no because then Israel could actually suffer major damage from any retaliation from the actual government whose country is being destroyed.

 

Do you people honestly think that merely carpet bombing the southern half of a country will end the conflict? and when does it go from merely Self defense to terror? the people of Lebanon live in constant fear of being bombed just like the Israelis do, they do't know where a bomb will drop either. Yet when Israel does it its called Self defense right? when Israel uses their advanced laser guided bombs and kills kids its fine to call it an accident right? but when the other side merely uses a much more crude way of doing the exact same thing its called terrorism?

 

To use Bettina's analogy once more if i throw rocks at Bettina's car she has a right to burn my entire house to the ground? if i hit her kid and leave him unconscious then the moral equivelence is she shooting my entire family and burning my house down? The problem is some people are automatically against any country in them iddle east that isnt Israel and will deny any reasoning that maybe they are just as much at fault as the other groups. Afterall Israel still has over 900 palestinians and Lebanese in prison, but its fine to call them prisoners and not kidnap victims? why is it different when one side does it? They are both fighting the same war, the only difference is Israel has American made bombs and jets and helicopters and The other groups have Iranian and Chinese made rockets...[/quote']

 

That was a nice post, but all you did was complain. Since you used my scenario why don't you answer the question. Your child is dead and I wanted to know what you would do.... not what you wouldn't do.

 

What Israel is doing right now is dropping leaflets telling everyone to leave. They aren't trying to kill anyone just remove the rocket launchers, ammunition, and strongholds, so they can't fire them into Israel anymore.

 

Bettina

[Pangloss]

I also have to add that equating Hezbollah's rocket attacks with "throwing rocks at a car" is very bad form. Those aren't backyard model rockets, folks, they are SERIOUS WEAPONS, and they ARE killing people. If a western nation intentionally used that kind of high-powered artillery on a civilian population they would be absolutely roasted by the international community. Why this is perceived as a minor offense in some circles is utterly inexplicable to me.

 

A wrong action does not become more wrong because of the number of people who die. If it was wrong when 5,000 are dead then it was also wrong when 5 were dead, or NONE. This business of rationalizing levels of justice is every bit as stupid as ignoring these problems altogether. We cannot say on Tuesday that Israel is in the right, and then decide on Wednesday that Israel is in the wrong. If you find yourself wavering in that direction, my advice is to GROW A PAIR.

 

Human Rights Watch (historically no friend of Israel!) issued a statement yesterday condemning Hezbollah's attacks and declaring them to be WAR CRIMES.

[mooeypoo]

There's something I recieved recently in mail that I thought you guys should see. My knowledge in french is quite limited, though I can understand most of it. My mother (fluent in french) sent me a brief translation, to hebrew, so my own translation will be from hers (and it might not be accurate); so if anyone here speaks or reads fluent french and wants to translate straight from the source, please do.

 

http://www.libanoscopie.com/fulldoc.asp?doccode=994&cat=2

 

This is from a LEBANESE news website in french. Basically, the article claims that Hizbullah was the one responsible for the kids killed in a building explosion in "Kfar Kana" (Kana Village). In this explosion about 60 people died.

 

The main baffling points to the Israeli military (who initially took responsibility for the bombing of this building, but stated that they warned the occupants beforehand) was that they bombed precise locations in the village, but NOT this specific building. The building collapsed about 4 hours after the attack. Israeli military took responsibility, saying it MAY BE that the attacks hit major struts or something of this sort.

 

However, the site claims (from Lebanese Christian Anti-Syrian sources) that Hizbullah, knowing the Israeli military will bomb any location of missile-fire, braught a massive amount of kids and elderly to the building, to be killed as Shahids, and support their claim of Israeli Mass-Murder. The children, it is being claimed in the article, were handicapped, and were braught into the building on purpose.

 

The site goes on to claim that the Kana Village was chosen specifically since it has already been portrayed as a location of Innocent Civilian Murder, so having more kids killed there will strengthen the public view against Israeli Attacks.

 

 

Now.. I'm not sure if this is true, but it sure gets my mind working. It is a known fact that in war, sadly, there are collateral damage - something the israeli military TRIES to avoid by dropping warning leaflets, warning the civilians ahead of time before an attack and such. But if this was premeditated, it seems to be getting into a whole new level with Fundamentalist-Muslims cruelty.

 

I would love to see someone translating this article better btw.. I didn't translate all of it.

 

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

ooh.. google helps.

 

Here's a version of the same site with Google's Translation Mudule:

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.libanoscopie.com%2Ffulldoc.asp%3Fdoccode%3D994%26cat%3D2&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

 

 

Thankyou Google.

 

~moo

[timo]

It is a known fact that in war, sadly, there are collateral damage - something the israeli military TRIES to avoid by dropping warning leaflets, warning the civilians ahead of time before an attack and such.

Sorry if I am off topic but I have a stupid question:

I have read about the leaflet-thing for at least the second time but I don´t really understand it. Isn´t it a bit counter-productive to the cause of destroying enemy missiles (that´s the reason for the bombing, afaik) to drop leaflets saying "Dear Hisbollah, we have located some of rockets at X. We have scheduled a bombing for tomorrow night 10 PM. If that date is not ok for you, please write an email to info@bombing.net or -in case we already destroyed all you telephone connections- shoot a message in a rocket towards Haifa harbor. Our navy will fetch it up and pass your message to the central bombing planning."

 

EDIT: Ah, it was Bettina´s post #61 where I read that leaflet-thing before.

[mooeypoo]

It isn't saying the exact location, just that Israeli Military is going to attack the vecinity. And yes, it is slightly counterproductive, but it is something Israel was willing to pay in order to try and avoid more civilian killing..

 

Try is the key word here, Hizbullah uses civilians as human shields all the time.

 

~moo

[bob000555]

My understanding is that they dropped leaflets telling people to evacuate the whole southern part of Lebanon, witch Hezbollah wont do so it isn’t counter productive. Also with this whole Hezbollah kidnapping troops thing, what if they kidnap a NATO soldier(Israel said that since the UN hasn’t worked in the past they want NATO peace keepers). Its not like Hezbollah is just going to let westerners come in and guard the borders. I predict this is going to turn into a big mess.

[Jim]

I also have to add that equating Hezbollah's rocket attacks with "throwing rocks at a car" is very bad form. Those aren't backyard model rockets' date=' folks, they are SERIOUS WEAPONS, and they ARE killing people. If a western nation intentionally used that kind of [b']high-powered artillery[/b] on a civilian population they would be absolutely roasted by the international community. Why this is perceived as a minor offense in some circles is utterly inexplicable to me.

 

A wrong action does not become more wrong because of the number of people who die. If it was wrong when 5,000 are dead then it was also wrong when 5 were dead, or NONE. This business of rationalizing levels of justice is every bit as stupid as ignoring these problems altogether. We cannot say on Tuesday that Israel is in the right, and then decide on Wednesday that Israel is in the wrong. If you find yourself wavering in that direction, my advice is to GROW A PAIR.

 

Human Rights Watch (historically no friend of Israel!) issued a statement yesterday condemning Hezbollah's attacks and declaring them to be WAR CRIMES.

 

Well put. These war crimes against civilians started on 7/12 before any action by Israel. Fortunately, there were no civillians residents in the initial rocket attacks on Israeli border towns but it is often forgotten that the initial attacks against Israel were directed both against their soldiers and against their civilians. A proportionate, i.e. predictable response, makes this a winnable game for the terrorists. Launch rockets, invade Israel, kill and kidnap soldiers and let civilians pay the price from a raid or two and then do a deal whereby you get the release of 1,000 or so prisoners in return for the 2 captured soldiers. Declare victory.

 

If Israel plays by those rules then the terrorists win and Lebanon has no incentive to get control of its borders. Who knows, if Hezbollah had not miscalculated by firing rockets at civilians initially, this may have been how it played out.

[Jim]

I'd missed this story:

The gunman who forced his way into the offices of the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle on Friday afternoon put a gun at the back of a 13-year-old girl to gain entry to the building, police said this afternoon.

 

The man who described himself as a Muslim American angry with Israel then opened fire with two handguns, killing one woman and wounding five others before surrendering to police.

 

The dead woman was identified this morning as Pamela Waechter, 58

 

The man then presumably drove to the federation building, where he hid behind a plant in the lobby for a short time. Kerlikowske said he waited for someone to come in to gain access into the office. When the 13-year-old girl walked up, he put a gun to her head and forced her to take him inside.

He rattled off anti-Israel slurs and commanded people not to dial 911. But shooting victim Dayna Klein, who is 17 weeks pregnant, ignored him. Her actions convinced Seattle police chief Gil Kerlikowske to call her a heroThe Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, founded in 1926, is an umbrella organization for the local Jewish community. It raises money for Jewish social-welfare organizations, runs youth and adult Jewish educational programs, and engages in efforts in support of Israel. The federation's mission is to ensure Jewish survival and enhance the quality of Jewish life locally, in Israel and worldwide.

 

Witnesses say the gunman shot one receptionist, then ordered her to dial 911. He then took the phone from her.

 

Here's the VDH article I pulled this from with its beginning and conclusion:

 

When I used to read about the 1930s — the Italian invasion of Abyssinia, the rise of fascism in Italy, Spain, and Germany, the appeasement in France and Britain, the murderous duplicity of the Soviet Union, and the racist Japanese murdering in China — I never could quite figure out why, during those bleak years, Western Europeans and those in the United States did not speak out and condemn the growing madness, if only to defend the millennia-long promise of Western liberalism.

Of course, the trauma of the Great War was all too fresh, and the utopian hopes for the League of Nations were not yet dashed. The Great Depression made the thought of rearmament seem absurd. The connivances of Stalin with Hitler — both satanic, yet sometimes in alliance, sometimes not — could confuse political judgments.

 

But nevertheless it is still surreal to reread the fantasies of Chamberlain, Daladier, and Pope Pius, or the stump speeches by Charles Lindbergh (“Their [the Jews’] greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our government”) or Father Coughlin (“Many people are beginning to wonder whom they should fear most — the Roosevelt-Churchill combination or the Hitler-Mussolini combination.”) — and it is even more baffling to consider that such men ever had any influence.

 

Not any longer.

 

Our present generation too is on the brink of moral insanity. That has never been more evident than in the last three weeks, as the West has proven utterly unable to distinguish between an attacked democracy that seeks to strike back at terrorist combatants, and terrorist aggressors who seek to kill civilians.

 

....

 

It is now a cliché to rant about the spread of postmodernism, cultural relativism, utopian pacifism, and moral equivalence among the affluent and leisured societies of the West. But we are seeing the insidious wages of such pernicious theories as they filter down from our media, universities, and government — and never more so than in the general public’s nonchalance since Hezbollah attacked Israel .

 

These past few days the inability of millions of Westerners, both here and in Europe, to condemn fascist terrorists who start wars, spread racial hatred, and despise Western democracies is the real story, not the “quarter-ton” Israeli bombs that inadvertently hit civilians in Lebanon who live among rocket launchers that send missiles into Israeli cities and suburbs.

 

Yes, perhaps Israel should have hit more quickly, harder, and on the ground; yes, it has run an inept public relations campaign; yes, to these criticisms and more. But what is lost sight of is the central moral issue of our times: a humane democracy mired in an asymmetrical war is trying to protect itself against terrorists from the 7th century, while under the scrutiny of a corrupt world that needs oil, is largely anti-Semitic and deathly afraid of Islamic terrorists, and finds psychic enjoyment in seeing successful Western societies under duress.

 

In short, if we wish to learn what was going on in Europe in 1938, just look around.

 

Finally, here's Father Coughlin speaking in 1937:

 

Perhaps, despite the advice of Washington of no foreign entanglements, despite the passage of the Jansen Act, which forbids us to lend money to those who already have borrowed it and who have not returned their loans, perhaps despite those things, some way, some miraculous way shall be found to project America into the next maelstrom. And democracy once more, thinking that it has power within its soul, shall rise up to clap and applaud, because the youth of the land is going abroad to make the world safe for what? Safe for dictatorship? Safe against communism abroad when we have communism at home? Safe from socialism in France when we have socialism in America? Or safe, safe for the international bankers?

 

Father Coughlin's listening audience was once estimated to be as much as one-third of the nation. His message might well find fertile soil in our day.

[Severian]

The paralels to the build up of WWII are ill advised in my opinion. After all, the people invading other countries this time are the US, UK and Israel.

[abskebabs]

I am not defending Hezbollah's actions when saying this, but when you look at things from a slightly broader historical perspective, Israel doesn't exactly have the moral high ground when it comes to kidnapping prisoners from Lebanon during border incursions and holding them hostage. It has been carrying out this exact policy in Lebanon for almost the last 2 decades, and many of the prisoners are still unreleased, without trial. Did the world even raise an eyebrow when this happenned?

 

It is far from the truth that only Hezbollah members have been kidnapped as businessmen, politicians and civilians with no affiliation to the group have been held without charge for a verey long time. This makes the claim that this is a suitable reason for Israel to invade Lebanon and blatantly attack and bombard heavily populated civilian areas; just because Hezbollah has started employing their own tactics agains them.

 

I would be shocked if anyone truly believes this war was pursued because 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. That was simply the excuse. IMO this war was planned in advance, and Israel was waiting for its oppurtunity to pounce, you could say.

 

In light of this, I think the strategy has proved to be as disasterous as the Iraq war. Why are these countries(US, UK and Israel) continuing to believe that violence can solve these problems? It is just tangling them into a biggger and bigger mess. I'm no longer surprised Hezbollah is gaining so much popularity in the middle east and Lebanon. I think even Christian and Druze communities in Lebanon they are gaining popularity.

 

To me it seems there is no sense of fairness, the rules are not dictated by the UN or any other world body. The rules are that Israel and the US make the rules, or else. As long as this is the impression ppl in the middle east and Arab world have, I don't think there can be any hope of lasting peace in the region.

 

Most importantly I think, is not the destruction of Hezbollah by arms, but to stop giving ppl a reason to support them, especially in Lebanon. This task may sound Herculean to western military thinkers, but perhaps after proverbially banging their heads on the wall, it is time for a change in approach.

[mooeypoo]

I am not defending Hezbollah's actions when saying this, but when you look at things from a slightly broader historical perspective, Israel doesn't exactly have the moral high ground when it comes to kidnapping prisoners from Lebanon during border incursions and holding them hostage. It has been carrying out this exact policy in Lebanon for almost the last 2 decades, and many of the prisoners are still unreleased, without trial. Did the world even raise an eyebrow when this happenned?

Other than perhaps one or two Hammas leaders that actually DID go to trial, like Sheikh Yassin, who was responsible for hundreds of civilian dead in terrorist attacks (was braught to trial and stayed in jail, and actually was released aventually in a deal), I can't remember any kidnapping of this sort.

 

Can you supply sources?

 

 

Most importantly I think' date=' is not the destruction of Hezbollah by arms, but to stop giving ppl a reason to support them, especially in Lebanon. This task may sound Herculean to western military thinkers, but perhaps after proverbially banging their heads on the wall, it is time for a change in approach.

[/quote']

And I happen to agree completely with your suggestion to change the approach in fight-mentality towards militia groups, however, the Israeli military wasn't fighting the same way USA army did in the past 50 years, and it isn't that simple. We've seen from the Palestinian front that brainwashed societies are very hard to convince; this process requires changing their entire educational system, and it is not something they allow or easily agree to accept.

When a child at the age of 4 is being dressed as a Shahid for a party and his mother jumps him around on her chest in front of cameras claiming he will be a wonderful shahid when he grows up to kill many jews, the problem is a lot more complicated than what you are suggesting.

 

I am not saying we should give up though. I'm just saying the solution of convincing people will take a lot of time, and you won't be able to do that if the hizbullah still has power. Moreover, many of the people they are controlling are not so much pro them, but have no choice; the hizbullah kills "mashtapim" -- people who 'cooperate with the israeli military' - regularly, without no trial, and in the middle of the night. People are terrified, and specifically when you speak about kids (let alone handicapped ones) you have zero resistance even if they DO want to resist.

 

 

~moo

[Jim]

The paralels to the build up of WWII are ill advised in my opinion. After all, the people invading other countries this time are the US, UK and Israel.

 

True, boiled down, Gulf War II was about enforcing the armistice agreed to by an aggressor defeated in battle. That is a hopeful distinction from the 1930s.

 

Mainly, though, I think your post helps prove VDH's point.

[ecoli]

Father Coughlin's listening audience was once estimated to be as much as one-third of the nation. His message might well find fertile soil in our day.

 

If you are interested in learning about anti-semitism in post-WWII America, I highly recomend te movie "Gentleman's Agreement"

[abskebabs]

Other than perhaps one or two Hammas leaders that actually DID go to trial' date=' like Sheikh Yassin, who was responsible for hundreds of civilian dead in terrorist attacks (was braught to trial and stayed in jail, and actually was released aventually in a deal), I can't remember any kidnapping of this sort.

 

Can you supply sources?

 

 

 

And I happen to agree completely with your suggestion to change the approach in fight-mentality towards militia groups, however, the Israeli military wasn't fighting the same way USA army did in the past 50 years, and it isn't that simple. We've seen from the Palestinian front that brainwashed societies are very hard to convince; this process requires changing their entire educational system, and it is not something they allow or easily agree to accept.

When a child at the age of 4 is being dressed as a Shahid for a party and his mother jumps him around on her chest in front of cameras claiming he will be a wonderful shahid when he grows up to kill many jews, the problem is a lot more complicated than what you are suggesting.

 

I am not saying we should give up though. I'm just saying the solution of convincing people will take a lot of time, and you won't be able to do that if the hizbullah still has power. Moreover, many of the people they are controlling are not so much pro them, but have no choice; the hizbullah kills "mashtapim" -- people who 'cooperate with the israeli military' - regularly, without no trial, and in the middle of the night. People are terrified, and specifically when you speak about kids (let alone handicapped ones) you have zero resistance even if they DO want to resist.

 

 

~moo[/quote']

I cannot supply the source, but I do remember reading an article in the Gulf news daily when I was in Dubai a few days ago. I will make an attempt to search for the article.

 

I find it amazing you are willing to generalize your preconceptions about Palestinians to Lebanese and perhaps all Arabs. Are you basically saying that they simply hate Israel and Jews because of "brainwashing." I acknowledge the widespread anti american and israeli sentiment in Arab media and public opinion. It is the root cause of problems that have to be addressed though, not sidestepping the issues and simply procaliming all Arabs are born and brought up to hate us.

 

For example I don't think Israel could possibly have done any better in helping Hezbollah's recruitment drive than it has in the last few days. I wouldn't be surprised if even Lebanese christians and sunnis; traditionally opposed to hezbollah, start joining its ranks. And you would be willing to say the cause of anti Israeli sentiment is "brainwashing." I don't think any such thing is needed to be honest.

 

Speaking of brainwashing I think the IDF has been adopting their own terror tactics on civilians, both Lebanese and Palestinian in the last few days. Here is the article which informed me of this.

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/08/03/10057331.html