"Stop the war now" - I'd rather die tommorow

[Bettina]

This what I here from your side all the time. What else could we do. For starters one have to understand that civilizations came about cause of trade and with trade comes mutual interests. It then doesn't matter whose fault it is and who started what. This overall strategy has to come before various tactics like destroying infrastructure or other collective punishments.

 

Your right..... But.

 

How does a civilized country trade with its neighbors that have always wanted to destroy it from day one. Some, have it in their countries constitution that Israel should not exist. Now, how does it protect itself.

 

I'm just trying to understand what your solution really is. The mutual trade is out for the above reasons.

 

Bettina

[MM]

Your right..... But.

 

How does a civilized country trade with its neighbors that have always wanted to destroy it from day one. Some' date=' have it in their countries constitution that Israel should not exist. Now, how does it protect itself.

 

I'm just trying to understand what your solution really is. The mutual trade is out for the above reasons.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

I don't seem to follow your conclusion. It's one thing if the neighboring countries don't want to trade with you, but I don't see why they wouldn't want to increase their living standards. Also I don't see how trading negatively effects your security on the contrary it will make your enemies appreciate your existence, then of cause they wouldn't be an enemy for long. As for civilized countries trading with enemies Fiat goes one step further and announces that they are going to manufacture cars in Iran, now this is a strategy that I agree with. Maybe Israel could do something of the sort when feelings calm down a bit.

[Bettina]

I don't seem to follow your conclusion. It's one thing if the neighboring countries don't want to trade with you, but I don't see why they wouldn't want to increase their living standards. Also I don't see how trading negatively effects your security on the contrary it will make your enemies appreciate your existence, then of cause they wouldn't be an enemy for long. As for civilized countries trading with enemies Fiat goes one step further and announces that they are going to manufacture cars in Iran, now this is a strategy that I agree with. Maybe Israel could do something of the sort when feelings calm down a bit.

 

Iran has publicly called for the destruction of Israel and I can supply you with links quoting its president if you wish. Most of the surrounding countries feel the same and none want to trade.

 

So, your next suggestion is?

 

Edit.... I'm not trying to be mean, I just want an answer.

 

Bettina

[MM]

Iran has publicly called for the destruction of Israel and I can supply you with links quoting its president if you wish. Most of the surrounding countries feel the same and none want to trade.

 

So' date=' your next suggestion is?

 

Edit.... I'm not trying to be mean, I just want an answer.

 

Bettina[/quote']

 

How can you be so certain that non want to trade I mean that's a pretty fore gone statement. Sonar or later Israel has to negotiate, if they are smart they will include trade of some sort.

 

and for god sake have some faith in people.

[Bettina]

How can you be so certain that non want to trade I mean that's a pretty fore gone statement. Sonar or later Israel has to negotiate' date=' if they are smart they will include trade of some sort.

 

and for god sake have some faith in people.[/quote']

 

I only have faith in civilized people, not terrorists. Check the link below.

 

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22424.pdf

 

Ok, Now were back to square one. What should Israel do to protect its people?

 

Bettina

[Chupacabra]

Whom do you feel is more free?

 

Person A) Makes a choice to sacrifice himself so that others can be free.

 

 

Well, you make a good candidate for suicide bomber

[Chupacabra]

Iran has publicly called for the destruction of Israel and I can supply you with links quoting its president if you wish.

 

Yet, it never attacked Israel. Israel did attack Iran

[Bettina]

Yet, it never attacked Israel. Israel did attack Iran

 

Iran is an enemy by its own words and deeds. Maybe you can tell us whats on your mind instead of using one liners.

 

Bee

[Pangloss]

Well, you make a good candidate for suicide bomber

 

Yet another desperate moral equivalency. I guess this ties in with the famously superficial "suicide bombers = freedom fighters" argument. Pretty much Romper Room material. For real debate between intelligent adults, not so much.

[bascule]

Yet, it never attacked Israel. Israel did attack Iran

 

When was that?

[Pangloss]

Oh my, I missed that one. You have sharp eyes Basc.

 

Iran... Iraq... they're all the same, right? (chuckle)

[bascule]

One little letter can't make all that much of a difference... and Arabs and Persians are the same thing really, right?

[mooeypoo]

Yet, it never attacked Israel. Israel did attack Iran

 

Right.. okay, which history books are you reading exactly?

 

Never, ever, everever, did Israel attack Iran. We had a lovely relationship with them actually, from the days of the shah, and in fact, something probably not many of you knew, Israel companies helped build most of the roads in Iran.

 

Israel, in fact, never had a war with iran. Or a battle. Or any of this sort.

 

If you are talking about Iraq, then you got things wrong too, since in 91 in the gulf war, Israel was attacked by missiles from Iraq, while not going into an active war. We supported America in their fight, since for Israel, going to a war with Iraq is just unrealistic; Iraq is too far away, and Israel cannot send its troops so far when it is being threatenned constantly from within.

 

So please, get your facts straight..

 

~moo

[Bettina]

When was that?

 

God! I missed that completely. One letter off. :embarass:

 

Bee

[abskebabs]

One little letter can't make all that much of a difference... and Arabs and Persians are the same thing really, right?

I think there is quite a difference in terms of culture and language. I think Iran has been "Arabized" by the mullahs currently in power, continuing a long history of the suppression of persian culture and the Zoroastrian and other native religions.

 

It's interesting that foreign words were recently banned in Iran, but Arabic was not included in this. It seems the regime wishes to ignore this minor contradiction in the interests of maintaining the Islamic republic.

[abskebabs]

I have just had an idea, not to resolve the current crisis but perhaps as a long term solution Israel could pursue once hostilities end. I am not sure if it would try this willingly and I acknowledge such an idea may be heavily criticised but here goes.

 

First of all Israel starts appealing to moderates within Hamas(they do exist) and within Hezbollah and Lebanon. Discussions could start to implement a withdrawal to the 1967 borders which Ismael Haniyeh(Palestinian PM) mentioned as minimium conditions for any peace. Nasrallah also mentioned a while back minimuim conditions along the exact same lines. I understand there are elements within both parties that call for the destruction of Israel but the moderates and extremists have to be distinguished rather than put under one roof.

 

For any real hope of working, progress would have to be swift in terms of movement of settlers and realigning of borders. Once these "minimium" conditions have been implemented, if attacks so much as begin then Israel would have absolutely no opposition from the outside world or the Arab world to crack down on either party as it would have fulfilled its side of the bargain. Also once Israel ceases to be seen as an occupying power extremists will begin to lose support.

 

Also someone has to negotiate with and convince Syria that it is not in its long term interests to behave as the channel between Iran and Hezbollah. The US dogmatically refuse to negotiate with Syrians, while conveniently forgetting the fact that it was only with their help that an escalation in hostilities was prevented after the attack in Qanna in 1996 by the Israelis.

 

I recognise such an idea may seem hopelessly unfeasible because of recent developments like the security wall, as well as the fact that such a realignment may put Israel the whole of Israel under the range of rockets from both Lebanon and Palestine.

 

I hope I dont get slated for writing this by you guys...

[gcol]

Sounds very reasonable and principled to me, but one big problem: How long would it be before a "moderate" putting his head above the parapet would get it blown off?

[abskebabs]

I acknowledge the change in circumstances following his statement, but Ismael Haniya(corrected spelling) did make a statement a while back about accepting the 1967 borders(I doubt either Israel or the US would readily view him as moderate though, or even took much notice of his statement). As far as I know his head has not blown up, but given the way the situation has changed since, I doubt he would be issuing similiar language anytime soon.

If anything it will be the Israelis that will have his head blow up, rather than anybody within Hamas.

 

I think his exact statement was: "The answer is to let Israel say it will recognize a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, release the prisoners, and recognize the rights of the refugees to return to Palestine. Hamas will have a position if this occurs."

[Pangloss]

Bascule and I were referring to Iraq. Israel did attack Iraq from the air in 1981, and I'm guessing that's what Chupacabra was thinking of when he said that Israel had attacked "Iran". Only one letter difference, you see. Obviously there is, in reality, a world of difference between Iran and Iraq.

[Pangloss]

abskebabs, I'm not sure how that's different from what the Security Council is trying to do right now. The problem is not minutiae in the details of where the borders lie, but in the violent attacks flying back and forth. Israel has no intention of stopping until Hezbollah has stopped, and Hezbollah has no incentive to stop because they're getting exactly what they want through violence.

[mooeypoo]

Here's something I recieved by mail. To those of you who don't know, Golda Meir was Israel's prime minister on 1973, when Yom Kippur war took place. (one of the more horrible wars in Israel's history, three front war started symultaneously by Syria, Jordan and Egypt, forcing Israel into a war in their most holiest day - Yom Kippur, where the jews fast, stores are closed, and radios are shut down throughout most of the country.)

 

And yet, here's what Golda is saying:

 

Food for thought.

 

~moo

[Sisyphus]

That is, unless they love their children so much they want them to die gloriously defending God...

[mooeypoo]

Sadly, you're right. I believe she meant a different thing though ;-)

 

But that, in my opinion, sums up the biggest problem with the war against fundamentalist muslim terrorism.

 

~moo

[budullewraagh]

Here's a good question: Why do you think the US and Israel are hated by so many Muslims?

[mooeypoo]

They represent the western world. Another way of thinking so radically different.

 

Notice that there are no true democracies in the muslim states. Why is that?

Notice that there is no true freedom of speech or thought or religion in muslim states. Why do you think that happens?

 

I don't hate arabs, and I don't hate muslims, I've lived with them in peace all my life. Usually, the regular average person wants (well, the educated ones at least) peace and quiet. Their governments and Religious Leaders, however, go by the claims that all those who are against fundametalist-thinking-islam are infidels.

Their way of THINKING is different than mine in more than their religion. Their social activities and social ethics are completely different. When they need to think about the "representation of evil" - when evil, by their religious leaders, is infidelic 'freedom' - their first thought goes to those who REPRESENT that: U.S.A as the biggest Western World Capitalist country (or so they see it), and Israel, the tiny democratic land of the Jews, the only country close enough to western democracy in that region.

 

~moo