DRAGONS,Myth or Reality?

[kenshin]

I know that the title itself makes it a speculation or pseudoscience thread,but today,they showed a dragon fossil on discovery channel.I am so confused.They were talking about fire breathing and flying creatures.They have theories to prove that they could fly and breath fire.(Weired!!!).By they I mean the group that discovered it.I don't remember the names though.I am so totally confused.How can it be?Why it never made a BIG news.Also,I did not find anything on net. How can they show something on TV with such claimes if they don't have proofs?And what about the fossils that were showen?They were complete fossils.Nothing was missing.All the detailes from teeth to wings to skin(yup they had skin,were frozen and preserved in ice.) were clear.COMPLETE FOSSILS! TWO OF THEM! TWO COMPLETE DRAGONS!! How can it be?What do you people think?

[Dr. Dalek]

I know that the title itself makes it a speculation or pseudoscience thread,but today,they showed a dragon fossil on discovery channel.I am so confused.They were talking about fire breathing and flying creatures.They have theories to prove that they could fly and breath fire.(Weired!!!).By they I mean the group that discovered it.I don't remember the names though.I am so totally confused.How can it be?Why it never made a BIG news.Also,I did not find anything on net. How can they show something on TV with such claimes if they don't have proofs?And what about the fossils that were showen?They were complete fossils.Nothing was missing.All the detailes from teeth to wings to skin(yup they had skin,were frozen and preserved in ice.) were clear.COMPLETE FOSSILS! TWO OF THEM! TWO COMPLETE DRAGONS!! How can it be?What do you people think?

Okay, I heard of a program called "Dragons are Real" it was supposed to be about what Dragon phisiology would be like if they actually existed. You might have taken the portraying of Dragons alittle too seriously. It is the whole "War of the Worlds" thing all over again.

[insane_alien]

Lets look at the facts.

 

1. It never made any big public news and something like that would.

 

2. Discovery channel has gone WAY downhill.

 

I'm gonna say 999/1000 its complete bunk

 

EDIT: dammit dr dalek ninja'd my post.

 

ok with what he said, then i change my opinion to, it was supposed to be a speculative documentary on what would happen if dragons were real. much like other alternate history documentaries such as "hitlers britain" where the nazi's won the second world war.

[YT2095]

Extant there is the Komodo Dragon.

 

as for the rest, ask Mokele

[Mokele]

As others have pointed out, the program is a joke/spoof, not reality. There are/were no dragons, at least not as popularly portrayed. Fire-breathing is just plain not possible, and any flying animal that size would have bones as thin as paper (a good punch could crush it's chest). This is, of course, leaving out that there are no records ever of vertebrate hexapods, which would be necessary for the traditionaly 4 legs + 2 wings dragon.

 

There are 2 theories I know of about the origins of dragons. The first, and most widely known, is that they are myths based on both accounts of large tropical reptiles like pythons, monitors, and crocodiles and on fossils of dinosaurs and other extinct giant animals. The second theory is rather interesting: it postulates that, because the 3 major predators of our primate ancestors have typically been pythons, hawks, and big cats, we retain instinctual fear towards these animals, and thus when man makes a monster for stories, the most fearsome monster we can conceive of is one mixing the traits of those 3: a dragon.

 

But no, there are not, and have never been, any real dragons like in the stories.

 

Mokele

[Bluenoise]

I can't stand these what if programs.

 

What a waste of time.

[Dr. Dalek]

The second theory is rather interesting: it postulates that, because the 3 major predators of our primate ancestors have typically been pythons, hawks, and big cats, we retain instinctual fear towards these animals, and thus when man makes a monster for stories, the most fearsome monster we can conceive of is one mixing the traits of those 3: a dragon.

Could legendary dragons also be influenced by our more distant ansestors. Such as the mammals that existed during the time of the dinosurs?

[kenshin]

I also thought the same,but it was no "if this then what" stuff.Secondly, they also thought of this 6 limb stuff.So,they conducted a dna test and noticed a mutation in the limb generating gene(that's what they said).This led to 6 limbs.The dragon had two sack like structures that were filled with hydrozen and methane(mainly hydrozen) which were produced by bacteria.This thing provided them with the ability to fly and fuel for fire.A certain mineral(don't remember the name) was a main part of there diet and when mixed with hydrozen and oxygen,it produced an exothermic reaction which produced fire.

 

All said,I still don't know what to say? If it's true, then it should have made a big news, but this time, what they showed was no big-foot stuff. This time, they had a different tone. It was assertive(like in the case of dinos). Weired!!

[insane_alien]

i think you mean Hydrazine rather than hydrozen. isn't hydrazine a rather nastily reactive compound that will burn itself without the need for atmospheric oxygen?

[kenshin]

i think you mean Hydrazine rather than hydrozen. isn't hydrazine a rather nastily reactive compound that will burn itself without the need for atmospheric oxygen?

 

I mean HYDROGEN.At least that's what they said.(sorry for the spelling)

[the tree]

a mutation in the limb generating gene(that's what they said)

No, no it wasn't. Mutations would have to happen in gametes to produce more than one occurance and there is no way a single mutation could cause the growth of extra limbs. The Discovery Channel may be lousy, but it's not stupid.

[insane_alien]

I mean HYDROGEN.At least that's what they said.(sorry for the spelling)

 

yeah, it waas the repeated use of 'z' that threw me off. i mean, its quite a bit away from the 'g' key so i thought it was on purpoe and you just botched the rest of the spelling(i was assuming you had never seen the word written and had spelt it phonetically)

[Mokele]

Was it narrated by Patrick Stewart (Captain Picard)?

 

If so, it was this: the discovery channel's 'what if' on dragons

 

Mokele

[AzurePhoenix]

I can't stand these what if programs.

 

What a waste of time.

Personally I rather enjoy them' date=' The Future is Wild, Alien Planet, the dragon thingy, but for the same sorta reason someone would watch "Snakes on a Plane!!!" just watch for simple sci-fi fun.

 

The only thing that irritates me is that everytime they suggest the program is real theoretical science rather than just for fun. Most educated folks certainly are not going to take it seriously, but they should do a bit better at making it clear that the whole thing is nothign but wildly speculative, generally innaccurate [i']entertainment[/i] for the lamens.

[Steph]

Personally I rather enjoy them' date=' The Future is Wild, Alien Planet, the dragon thingy, but for the same sorta reason someone would watch "Snakes on a Plane!!!" just watch for simple sci-fi fun.

 

The only thing that irritates me is that everytime they suggest the program is real theoretical science rather than just for fun. Most educated folks certainly are not going to take it seriously, but they should do a bit better at making it clear that the whole thing is nothign but wildly speculative, generally innaccurate [i']entertainment[/i] for the lamens.

 

I also enjoy them... They are actually well done. at least well done enough that someone made the mistake! and they have nice visuals (I really like the giant weird ocean going thing in alien planet).

[Dr. Dalek]

No, no it wasn't. Mutations would have to happen in gametes to produce more than one occurance and there is no way a single mutation could cause the growth of extra limbs. The Discovery Channel may be lousy, but it's not stupid.

I think he ment to imply that the species originated from another animal that had gamets mutate sometime long ago.

 

Here is a summery of the Dragons made real plot.

The special begins with the narrater narrates the history of dragons that may have been in our imaginations. But what if these stories were more than a myth? What if the legends were true? This is the story of the most extraordinary creature that never exsisted. The Story begins at London Museum of Natural History and Science,London,England where a young palaeontologist discovers talon marks on a T-Rex's skull and shares this discovery with other palaeontologists. Those were left by a creature unknown to science. But it wasn't the talons that killed the T-Rex,a blast of fire killed it because carbon marks are discovered on the side of the T-Rex's skull. 65 millon years ago,A T-Rex saw a figure of a creature in the distance because something had been raiding his territory and the food had been scarce. He hadn't eaten in days. The figure slowly revealed to be a young prehistoric dragon. The T-Rex switched to attack mode while The young dragon attempted to defend itself by extending its wings to give illusion that it is much larger than it really is. Not deterred by the bluff, the T-Rex remained in attack mode. The young dragon's next attempt was to produce a piercing scream that carried for miles. Even this incredibly painful screech did not get the T-Rex to back off so the dinosaur begun to attack but the young dragon attacked with a headbutt on the T-Rex's chin. The dragon's mother came to the rescue and scratched the T-Rex's forehead. This land was her territory and she was defending her son. The female prehistoric dragon scratched some more and the T-Rex counter-attacked with a headbutt in the chest. The mother dragon continued to scratch and the T-Rex bit her wing tearing it apart. The dragon breathed fire on the dinosaur, injuring it. The T-Rex didn't last the night after being hit by the streaming blaze. The mother was also fatally injured. With the broken wing,she didn't fly to feed herself or her offspring.

 

Back in the present,the palaeontologist is studying the photos of a new discovery at Romania. The story of the this discovery began at the Carpathian Mountains when explorers stumbled upon something amazing and called the police. The police sent two detectives to investigate the mystery. the detectives moved into the cave and discovered human corpses. When they moved deeper into the cave,They saw what appears to be a corpse of a dragon.

 

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons:_A_Fantasy_Made_Real"

 

I don't see anything about mutated genes, or hydrogen sacs

[padren]

If you want information on actual dragons from a very reputable source that is more reliable than "science" and all that...well I can't resist digging up Bascule's old find:

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17455

[kenshin]

Dr. Dalek, you are right,but that is just the plot of first 15 min. Anyways, I got the point and I feel sick.That was so SICK. But, still, it was good, only the way they asserted it was SICK. BAD. VERY BAD. VERY BAD INDEED.

[YT2095]

strong Hydrogen Peroxide is used by a certain Insect though (some type of beetle) and it defends itself with a jet of super heated steam!

[kenshin]

strong Hydrogen Peroxide is used by a certain Insect though (some type of beetle) and it defends itself with a jet of super heated steam!

 

They also said the same thing and used this fact for asserting that if insects can do it, dragons can do it too.Anyways...here's the add

 

http://www.discoverychannel.co.in/dragons/

 

http://www.discoverychannel.co.in/dragons/sneak-previews.shtml

 

http://www.discoverychannel.co.in/dragons/meet-dragon.shtml

[Rocket Man]

strong Hydrogen Peroxide is used by a certain Insect though (some type of beetle) and it defends itself with a jet of super heated steam!

 

mix with mildly flamable oils, you then have a vertitable flame thrower.

 

parafin wax is interesting when it reaches ignition temperature, tea light candles have a very small flame flickering over the surface of the wax even without a wick, its like kerosene. the flame is barely visible untill you disturb it, with water, the resulting fire ball looks impossibly huge for such a small dish of wax.

 

peroxide would surely heat a natural oil to vaporisation and ignition temperatures. the concentrated oxygen would also help get it to light.

[YT2095]

well I`m making No Claims or assertions about this, only that there IS a beetle capable of doing as I described (it exists).

 

I would also say however that beetles being exoskeletons made of creatin I beleive, are about as far removed from Reptilian structure as we are

[AzurePhoenix]

well I`m making No Claims or assertions about this, only that there IS a beetle capable of doing as I described (it exists).

 

Google the bombardier beetle. They have abdominal chemcial sacks that mix up stuff to make an enzymatic reaction that rather violently shoots out a burst or jet of the hot stuff. It's a whole family of beetles actually.

[Sisyphus]

American horned lizards can also shoot aimed, poisonous blood from their eyes a few feet. It's a defense mechanism. At least those are reptiles, even if it's a far cry from fire-breathing...

[FractalFiend]

No, no it wasn't. Mutations would have to happen in gametes to produce more than one occurance and there is no way a single mutation could cause the growth of extra limbs. The Discovery Channel may be lousy, but it's not stupid.

 

 

An example where a single HOX gene mutation leads to a set f extra wings in Drosophila.

 

http://drnelson.utmem.edu/MHEL.hox.html

 

Mutations in the 8 genes of the HOM complex cause large scale mutations in flies. A mutation in bithorax causes a fly to have an extra set of wings. Mutation in antennapedia causes a leg to grow where an antenna should be. These genes are not master switches for making wings or legs, but they specify position in the fly's body. The order of the genes on the chromosome is the same as the order of segments in the fly's body where they are expressed. The left most gene is expressed in the head, the right most gene is expressed in the abdomen. When a gene is deleted or mutated, the segment where it is normally expressed cannot tell where it is because its position clue is gone, so it behaves like the closest segment to it. That is why a bithorax mutation causes an extra set of wings. The segments adjacent to the bithorax segment dictated what should be made.

 

I know there are other examples of mutations in a single gene or gene regulatory region that result in extra limbs but I don't have time atm to look.