Who won? (Israel and Hezbollah)

[mr d]

hello

 

though numbers of rockets might not be as significant , the fact that they could continue to launch during the intensive isreli bombardment shows growing complexity amoung the hezbollah fighters. for those of you who know katushka rockets are not very complicated affairs. fins-body-warhead. main targeting, you point it in the direction of your target. that's why you can fire hundreds of missiles and still do relatively little damage. most never hit anywhere close to their intended target. most missles hit short or long or just fall somewhere. which is why reporters don't say hezbollah lauched a rcoket attack against the isreali barracks in haifa. if they hit it its by luck.

which is why its called a weapon of terror. since you can't aim at a specific target, anywhere in the range is a target. with more advanced weapons you stay away from certain targets and you stand far less chance of becoming collateral damage (fun term). but with these you don't know where is safer.

for the isreali's they attempted to destroy the launch sites, that's not launchers. a launcher for a katushka is a nice long section of pipe or rail into which the weapons is placed or rested on for aiming. plus a hundred feet of straight view to place your pipe in facing the direction of the target. that can be a field, street, or even roof top.

in the past one of the first things the isreali's did was take out the c&c (command and control)of their opponent.

making it difficult for the people maining the rockets to co-ordinate amoungst themselves. hence a rocket launches and survailence picks up the launch and quickly calls in a retalitory strike usually air launched. taking out rocket launcher and crew.

but this time hezbollah managed to use more common communications tools like cell phones to keep in touch. so you start launching rockets, the isreali's determine your position, but now a hezbollah fighter located a ways away keeps watch for that f16 and notifies the missle launchers when it's inbound. giving them time to clear the area. what gets destoyed, a bit of pipeing plus maybe a missle still sitting on the launcher.

so now all the hezbollah needs do is going get some more pipeing and their back in business.

 

the loss for isreal here is that they've figured this out. no need for cumbersome military gear which they can't afford much of and can't replace quickly when destroyed. a $50 dollar cell phone works just as well. could isreal take out a cel phone communications satelite. most likely. but the hezbollah don't own one. they're using common phones that use bandwidth that lebanon rents from some major western nations satelite. and somehow i think most people reading this would be a little peeved if they took out that satelite and you lost use of your cel for the next 1/2 year or so.

 

mr d

[Jim]

hello

 

though numbers of rockets might not be as significant ' date=' the fact that they could continue to launch during the intensive isreli bombardment shows growing complexity amoung the hezbollah fighters. for those of you who know katushka rockets are not very complicated affairs. fins-body-warhead. main targeting, you point it in the direction of your target. that's why you can fire hundreds of missiles and still do relatively little damage. most never hit anywhere close to their intended target. most missles hit short or long or just fall somewhere. which is why reporters don't say hezbollah lauched a rcoket attack against the isreali barracks in haifa. if they hit it its by luck.

which is why its called a weapon of terror. since you can't aim at a specific target, anywhere in the range is a target. with more advanced weapons you stay away from certain targets and you stand far less chance of becoming collateral damage (fun term). but with these you don't know where is safer.

for the isreali's they attempted to destroy the launch sites, that's not launchers. a launcher for a katushka is a nice long section of pipe or rail into which the weapons is placed or rested on for aiming. plus a hundred feet of straight view to place your pipe in facing the direction of the target. that can be a field, street, or even roof top.

in the past one of the first things the isreali's did was take out the c&c (command and control)of their opponent.

making it difficult for the people maining the rockets to co-ordinate amoungst themselves. hence a rocket launches and survailence picks up the launch and quickly calls in a retalitory strike usually air launched. taking out rocket launcher and crew.

but this time hezbollah managed to use more common communications tools like cell phones to keep in touch. so you start launching rockets, the isreali's determine your position, but now a hezbollah fighter located a ways away keeps watch for that f16 and notifies the missle launchers when it's inbound. giving them time to clear the area. what gets destoyed, a bit of pipeing plus maybe a missle still sitting on the launcher.

so now all the hezbollah needs do is going get some more pipeing and their back in business.

 

the loss for isreal here is that they've figured this out. no need for cumbersome military gear which they can't afford much of and can't replace quickly when destroyed. a $50 dollar cell phone works just as well. could isreal take out a cel phone communications satelite. most likely. but the hezbollah don't own one. they're using common phones that use bandwidth that lebanon rents from some major western nations satelite. and somehow i think most people reading this would be a little peeved if they took out that satelite and you lost use of your cel for the next 1/2 year or so.

 

mr d[/quote']

 

Mr. D, is there a reason you don't punctuate? I almost have to force myself to read your posts. You seem to have good sentence structure, coherent arguments, but the punctuation drives me batty. Please take this in the manner as I'm one of the spelling-deprived individuals of the world. This question is not to criticize but I wonder if we are heading to a text-messaging world were capital letters at the beginning of sentences are optional.

[Bettina]

Same with me. Its too hard to read so I skip it.

 

Bee

[Pangloss]

Pangloss' date=' I'm not speculating. I was only saying that we can't make judgments based on numbers of rocket attacks compared to zero. That is really a meaningless point. Yes, once war broke out, rocket attacks were up. Way up. Big suprise.

 

Bull, if you don't think terrorists like Hezbollah hide amongst civilians, I really don't think I"m going to convince you of anything.[/quote']

 

I think you meant "Bud" there instead of "Bull"? A freudian slip?

[Pangloss]

Regarding Mr. D., if he'll forgive me for talking about him in the third person for a moment, he's actually gotten a lot better. He's made an effort to adjust his posting style to the community, so let's give him another shot, eh? Many of his posts have been quite interesting.

[mr d]

Hello

 

Ou.. look capitol letters. Hey I'll let you in on a little secret. Could have done this for a while, but I chose not to. Why 1: I chose not to comform to how you wish me to be. 2: Helps me get a better picture of the people I'm speaking with.

 

I noticed complaints about my non-capitol use for some time, and found it amusing. Free thinkers that you are seemed highly threaten by this lack of proper writing structure.

 

But rules of writing are just conventions, more important is what is written. I claim no great insights into the world, but if you are looking to gain knowledge by conversing with others, you should allow for the fact that others may not choose to or are incapable of writting as you do. It requires some effort on your part.

 

Of course you can to ignore such people as many do, and you can enjoy and ignorant life.

 

In all that time done considered that English may not be my native language, or that i may be someone who is handicapped; and must use an input devise where by extra effort is required to manipulate such a devise to switch back and worth between caps and non caps. And no I'm not.

 

All I heard was why can't you write like us, don't you know how to use proper punctuation (hey must admit not that good at such). If you are trying to form a web site that hopes to encourage conversions with people from different lands and backgrounds. Why maybe you should extend courtesy to allow for mistakes in writing. Often I notice new comers to this site, who by their style of writing are obviously not native English speakers, almost ridiculed not by what they are saying; but by how they are able to convey their ideas.

 

Give it a try, see if you can understand them. When I read above on this post's topic and writers here say 'I don't understand these people', I can only guess at the effort applied.

 

Hoping off the soapbox. I shall endeavor to express myself in a more grammatically proper tone in future postings. So not to offer offence to your wondrous sense of propriety. You wild and wacky conformists.

 

Mr D Ou... more capitals.

[gcol]

Mr.d:

So not to offer offence to your wondrous sense of propriety. You wild and wacky conformists.

 

Only the pompous will be offended, and they are fair targets anyway. Keep the fresh views coming. Remember that many more people read the thread than contribiute to it. I'm sure the silent majority appreciate some new viewpoints.

 

I try to stir things up a bit myself from time to time, but get few responses. Perhaps I need to disguise my hook a little better.

[mooeypoo]

Mr D,

 

As someone who's english is not her native language, I wanted to say that I enjoy your posts very much, but, and please don't take this as me critisizing your grammar (i'm probably the last that should or could do that ;-) ) I found it just a bit difficult to read your style.

 

While it's true that styling is the "conformism", it isn't only that.. styling makes a more comfortable reading, and when a thread is full of posts, it is important - beyond of wht you want to deliver in your ideas - to try and make them easy and fluent to read..

 

Your ideas are good and contributing to the debate, don't take the remarks people put here about your styling personally. Just understand that in a forum, the medium of communication is writing, and when a person writes in a way that makes it difficult to read, his ideas get swallowed, sometimes ignored, and that's really a shame.

 

That said, keep on being a nonconformist! nonconformists rule.

 

Have a great day,

 

~moo

[Bettina]

Hello

 

Ou.. look capitol letters. Hey I'll let you in on a little secret. Could have done this for a while' date=' but I chose not to. Why 1: I chose not to comform to how you wish me to be. 2: Helps me get a better picture of the people I'm speaking with.

 

I noticed complaints about my non-capitol use for some time, and found it amusing. Free thinkers that you are seemed highly threaten by this lack of proper writing structure.

 

But rules of writing are just conventions, more important is what is written. I claim no great insights into the world, but if you are looking to gain knowledge by conversing with others, you should allow for the fact that others may not choose to or are incapable of writting as you do. It requires some effort on your part.

 

Of course you can to ignore such people as many do, and you can enjoy and ignorant life.

 

In all that time done considered that English may not be my native language, or that i may be someone who is handicapped; and must use an input devise where by extra effort is required to manipulate such a devise to switch back and worth between caps and non caps. And no I'm not.

 

All I heard was why can't you write like us, don't you know how to use proper punctuation (hey must admit not that good at such). If you are trying to form a web site that hopes to encourage conversions with people from different lands and backgrounds. Why maybe you should extend courtesy to allow for mistakes in writing. Often I notice new comers to this site, who by their style of writing are obviously not native English speakers, almost ridiculed not by what they are saying; but by how they are able to convey their ideas.

 

Give it a try, see if you can understand them. When I read above on this post's topic and writers here say 'I don't understand these people', I can only guess at the effort applied.

 

Hoping off the soapbox. I shall endeavor to express myself in a more grammatically proper tone in future postings. So not to offer offence to your wondrous sense of propriety. You wild and wacky conformists.

 

Mr D Ou... more capitals.[/quote']

 

I don't care about proper punctuation, capital letters, or how a word is spelled. Some posters may not do well in english and do the best they can.

 

I just care about making a post easy to read like you did in this post.

 

Bee

[Jim]

I think you meant "Bud" there instead of "Bull"? A freudian slip?

 

Whoops! Sorry... er, Bud.

[Jim]

I don't speak any other languages so I'm impressed beyond measure that you can more than hold your own.

 

I genuinely want to read what you write but my eyes just slide right over the words without punctuation. I'm not trying to make you comform but it is very likely that I won't go back and forth with you in an exchange in this mode. No hard feelings but I don't particuarly feel like comforming either.

 

Free thinkers that you are seemed highly threaten by this lack of proper writing structure.

 

 

I'm not threatened anymore than I would be by someone who wrote posts in pig-latin. However, if you want to open my narrow Okie mind, I'd much rather you recommend a good author.

 

Hold on.... ack, I just see you punctuated! I read the substance of that post so easily that I didn't notice the form.

[mr d]

Hello

 

A quick clarification. When I stated no one thought how English might not my be my native language, that merely ment just that. That no one thought it.

 

I would have to say English would probably be considered my native tongue, though when young I spoke a mixture of Jersey and South Philly, and upon moving West many people thought I was speaking a foreign language.

 

'Yozzz.. Luts youse say we blow Joysee, head da Philly, chutes some poole and mabs slaps down a pear of hogie dings. no whut's I mean, cuz dats freakin fun'. Somewhat like that.

 

Though for some odd reason people now tend to think I have a Southern Twang, most often asked is what ward of New Orleans I'm from. Even by people from New Orleans. Lazy english for a lazy fellow, natural adaptation as and old English Professor once informed me.

 

Though living in the Southwestern United Stated for a time, I did pick up a smattering of Navajo, Hopi, and Apache. Nothing I could say here. But great when saying things to your obnoxious boss.

 

'What was that you just said?'

 

'Just said for you to have a nice day.'

 

'Didn't sound like that to me, write down what you just said.'

 

'Affraid I can't, Navajo is not a written language.'

 

'I'm going to find out what you said.'

 

'Oh...do you know some Navajos living around here.'

 

Hope that cleared that up, and hoping you have your own Navajo to speak when needs arise.

 

Mr D

 

BTW: Do not be fooled by people who claim they make sub(marine) sandwiches, that are the same thing as a hogie. no such animal.

[Bettina]

Mr d...

 

I read your entire post, it was easy, and I understood everything.

 

Bee

[mooeypoo]

'Yozzz.. Luts youse say we blow Joysee' date=' head da Philly, chutes some poole and mabs slaps down a pear of hogie dings. no whut's I mean, cuz dats freakin fun'. Somewhat like that.

[/quote']

 

haha!! I love you already!

 

:-D

 

~moo

[ParanoiA]

Hello

 

Ou.. look capitol letters. Hey I'll let you in on a little secret. Could have done this for a while' date=' but I chose not to. Why 1: I chose not to comform to how you wish me to be. 2: Helps me get a better picture of the people I'm speaking with.

 

I noticed complaints about my non-capitol use for some time, and found it amusing. Free thinkers that you are seemed highly threaten by this lack of proper writing structure.

 

But rules of writing are just conventions, more important is what is written. I claim no great insights into the world, but if you are looking to gain knowledge by conversing with others, you should allow for the fact that others may not choose to or are incapable of writting as you do. It requires some effort on your part.

 

Of course you can to ignore such people as many do, and you can enjoy and ignorant life.

 

In all that time done considered that English may not be my native language, or that i may be someone who is handicapped; and must use an input devise where by extra effort is required to manipulate such a devise to switch back and worth between caps and non caps. And no I'm not.

 

All I heard was why can't you write like us, don't you know how to use proper punctuation (hey must admit not that good at such). If you are trying to form a web site that hopes to encourage conversions with people from different lands and backgrounds. Why maybe you should extend courtesy to allow for mistakes in writing. Often I notice new comers to this site, who by their style of writing are obviously not native English speakers, almost ridiculed not by what they are saying; but by how they are able to convey their ideas.

 

Give it a try, see if you can understand them. When I read above on this post's topic and writers here say 'I don't understand these people', I can only guess at the effort applied.

 

Hoping off the soapbox. I shall endeavor to express myself in a more grammatically proper tone in future postings. So not to offer offence to your wondrous sense of propriety. You wild and wacky conformists.

 

Mr D Ou... more capitals.[/quote']

 

What is noble about grammatical rebellion? Isn't conformity required for humans to interpret each other? How could you not conform and yet establish language or any kind of information exchange? It almost implies that you defy folks to understand you. Seems like an odd way to approach debate and discussion.

 

That said, I've read all of your posts in this thread. Various nationalities and etc. must be welcomed for a diverse forum, so I just assume errors in grammer or punctuation are probably just a result of that. The only thing I have a hard time with is lack of line breaks. When I see a big ole juicy paragraph, it's hard to get motivated to read it all.

[Phi for All]

We need to get this thread back on topic (if it still has some energy left) but I would like to say this about precision in writing: If you are trying to communicate using a "low-bandwidth" medium like Web forums, you need to be as clear as possible. Punctuation is never too much to ask, even if it takes you a bit more time to convey your meaning. My opinion, of course.

[Bettina]

I'm finished with this thread unless budullewraagh wants to back up his statement in post 73... I gave him the sources and asked a question of my own.

 

This whole "they hide amongst civilians" thing is certainly not common knowledge. I have plenty of reason to believe that this is not the case at all. Prove to me that it is true. Provide sources. Have a blast.

 

Bee

[budullewraagh]

I really have nothing left to say. I have provided clear data and evidence incriminating Israel and the United States and explaining how Hezbollah gained significantly from the war and time and time again my arguments have been swept under the proverbial rug. If you will not be convinced, so be it. Just don't expect me to continuously reiterate.

[Bettina]

I really have nothing left to say. I have provided clear data and evidence incriminating Israel and the United States and explaining how Hezbollah gained significantly from the war and time and time again my arguments have been swept under the proverbial rug. If you will not be convinced, so be it. Just don't expect me to continuously reiterate.

 

You have nothing left to say because you can't back up your statement in post 73 and repeated in post 92. No offense, but the "clear data and evidence" was not there. I don't have a problem with it because you answered it by not answering.

 

Bettina

[budullewraagh]

Does this even merit response??

 

As I said I presented clear evidence. You did not and would not accept it. I have nothing more to say. If you want to try to call me out like you just did, while meaning to be offensive (so don't try to play down your hostility) I still have nothing more to say. Your attitude in the past several pages has been atrocious- continuously playing the same bs card just as you've been taught by the leadership of our nation. Congratulations- you're a bigoted puppet.

[gcol]

"civilian shield lebanon"

 

Having assumed it was common knowledge that part of the Hezbullah tactic was to camouflage its launch sites and other military activities amongst civillians, I was surprised at how vehemently it was denied.

 

So I googled the above keywords, and got so much confirmation that any one link would be unnecessary. Some justify it, some explain how in international law it is illegal, and some say so what, all is fair in love and war. I found none that deny it. On the balance of evidence, case proven for me.

[Phi for All]

Congratulations- you're a bigoted puppet.

Keep it civil please. Facts beat flames.

[mooeypoo]

Amazing.

 

When I repeat myself in asking for straight forward answers, I get a "please don't repeat yourself" post from the Admin. It is true, though. This thread has degraded, but there is a specific person that keep degrading it.

 

Is that personal attack? It's not meant to be, but take it as you wish. Budul, I've never seen someone so convincing using so little fact-finding or shreds of truth to show his words. Well done. You obviously had practice.

 

This, however, is a Scientific Forum, and the people here are logical thinkers. They demand proof, not an unbased lecture. We've been quite fair in requesting it.. again.. and again... and again.

 

Isn't it time, budul my friend, you stop making rediculous unbased claims, stop ignoring our facts that we bring, stop avoiding bringing your own facts (that appearantly don't exist, since you have not proven them, as Betinna pointed out the specific thread), and start participating fairly in this discussion?

 

 

Perhaps I repeated myself again.

 

You're right.

 

How silly of me.

 

~moo

 

p.s: this is not against the admins. Their attempts to keep this thread civil has been quite notably insisting, and I do agree with it. I am simply requesting that the sides be treated fairly. We've never allowed for a brainwashing strawmen, ad hominem or any other logical fallacies to exist in these forums. This shouldn't be an exception.

[Phi for All]

I am simply requesting that the sides be treated fairly. We've never allowed for a brainwashing strawmen, ad hominem or any other logical fallacies to exist in these forums. This shouldn't be an exception.

The verbals should act as thunderheads on the horizon. When the storm comes it will result in official warnings, which carry points towards a temporary ban.

 

"Both sides" are now entrenched in the "I've given my proof" foxhole. I think Bettina's links from post #53 provide enough evidence to warrant her claims that Hezbollah has been endangering their civilian population by placing offensive military equipment in suburban locales. As Pangloss points out, whether this is deliberate is in question. I think this particular issue and it's ackowledgement is causing the impasse. Anyone care to comment?

[ParanoiA]

Does this even merit response??

 

As I said I presented clear evidence. You did not and would not accept it. I have nothing more to say. If you want to try to call me out like you just did' date=' while meaning to be offensive (so don't try to play down your hostility) I still have nothing more to say. Your attitude in the past several pages has been atrocious- continuously playing the same bs card just as you've been taught by the leadership of our nation. Congratulations- you're a bigoted puppet.[/quote']

 

Where is the evidence you presented? I started with page one and scrolled page by page til this post and I have not seen any "evidence" - links or whatever.

 

I understand the lack of need to present evidence when dealing with fairly universal knowledge and facts, but you're arguing a point that is going to have to be substantiated by news stories or something because no one believes it. It's really that simple.

 

I have a sympathetic ear for your side of the debate, because there are always three sides to every story. But you're going to have to put aside your agenda long enough to collect something factual to build on.