I'm thinking Web Design?

[-Demosthenes-]

I'm really interested in learning more about the web design part of computers. I image I should look at HTML and PHP, are there any good books for these? What other things should I be looking at?

[Klaynos]

As a start:

 

http://www.w3schools.com/

 

Learn, XHTML and CSS. As for php, there are many many tutorials around on the web, personally I learnt from a book called, php fast and easy, I borred from my brother, which was excellent as far as I can remember....

[Neil9327]

Well PHP CSS yes they are good. However if you are looking to do web site programming and earn money you might want to learn Microsoft .net and the C # (sharp) programming language. They are more GUI based so are, IMHO, more flexible.

[-Demosthenes-]

That is an amazing site, I'll be on it for a while .

[Dak]

javascript?

 

It lets you put little nuggets of code into a webpage.

 

Used for stuff like the fancy-pants drop-down menus, like the 'newposts' menu above.

 

here's SFNs: http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/clientscript/vbulletin_menu.js

 

not good enough at it yet to understand the above JS

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Well PHP CSS yes they are good. However if you are looking to do web site programming and earn money you might want to learn Microsoft .net and the C # (sharp) programming language. They are more GUI based so are, IMHO, more flexible.

C#, however, is not directly aimed at Web programming, as PHP is. PHP is incredibly powerful for creating dynamic webpages.

[-Demosthenes-]

Looks like quite a bit to learn. I'll probably have to look into programs like dreamweaver too, right?

[RyanJ]

Looks like quite a bit to learn. I'll probably have to look into programs like dreamweaver too, right?

 

Best advice is if you want correct code, don't use one of those fancy WYSIWYG editors and instead write the code yourself.

 

Even though they do work pretty well - they add things to the pages that are not necessary and will most probably ruin your pages page ranking for having invalid content (Google bot's pare picky about stuff like that.)

 

Best advice is learn correct (X)HTML & CSS then extend from there, PHP works great for dynamic pages as Cap'n Refsmmat has already said and JS is also well worth looking into for some things.

 

Good luck on your quest!

 

-- Ryan Jones

[mooeypoo]

Best advice is if you want correct code, don't use one of those fancy WYSIWYG editors and instead write the code yourself.

 

So true so true. BUT, as a beginner, I'd probably still recommend an editor that can behave as both, so that on realtime you can see what you are doing in the code..

 

Don't use Microsoft programs, they're lousy, and add unnecessary lines of code and rarely let you control your own code.

 

While Notepad is awsome, I would recommend a code-specific notepad (to light the code sections and color them, for convinience), like Professional Notepad 2.9 or Notepad++.

 

I would actually recommend dreamweaver, since it has the ability to mix WYSIWYG real time design with powerful code-writing along with highlights and syntax help. It's quite good for a beginner.

 

That, and, of course, go online to sites like http://www.planetsourcecode.com and look for snippets, run them serverside, see how they work, tweak/change/update them and check them again. It's the best way to learn after you have the basic syntax knowledge.

 

Good luck!

 

~moo

[mooeypoo]

Oh, another thing:

 

I would recommend you first study the differences between Server-side Script languages and Client-Side script language. They're not "competing" with one another, they can be used together for various results.

 

PHP, for instance, is a serverside script, while javascript is a clientside script.

 

So, in really basic terms (oversimplified for the cause of explanation): PHP can be used to build a site that reads, writes and manipulates database information, while javascript can be used to locally detect empty fields (before they've been submitted) in a registration form page on the User's computer.

 

One works in the server, and outputs a result which is sent to the user, and the other is being uploaded full-script to the user, and runs it locally.

 

Important difference, specially since I've seen people recommend 'either php or js'. It can be both at the same time, depending on your desired result.

 

Aaaand last but not least: You can always post your code in the computer section if you have a problem, and we will try to help you out

 

Goooood luck!

 

~moo

[Klaynos]

So true so true. BUT' date=' as a beginner, I'd probably still recommend an editor that can behave as both, so that on realtime you can see what you are doing in the code..

 

Don't use Microsoft programs, they're lousy, and add unnecessary lines of code and rarely let you control your own code.

 

While Notepad is awsome, I would recommend a code-specific notepad (to light the code sections and color them, for convinience), like Professional Notepad 2.9 or Notepad++.

 

I would actually recommend dreamweaver, since it has the ability to mix WYSIWYG real time design with powerful code-writing along with highlights and syntax help. It's quite good for a beginner.

 

That, and, of course, go online to sites like http://www.planetsourcecode.com and look for snippets, run them serverside, see how they work, tweak/change/update them and check them again. It's the best way to learn after you have the basic syntax knowledge.

 

Good luck!

 

~moo

 

 

I'd say use something like scite, google for it.

 

Save regularly and open it in firefox and refresh to see the changes....

[mooeypoo]

I'd say use something like scite, google for it.

 

Save regularly and open it in firefox and refresh to see the changes....

 

Didn't know that one.. I'll definately check it out.

 

There is a problem, though, with PHP (serverside scripting in whole, actually) -- it needs a server to run. So either you need to install a php server on your computer, or find a place to upload your stuff and continuously upload-and-check them (like I do mostly with my code).

 

Depends on your own convinience, really.

 

What I do think is good about Dreamweaver's ability to show WYSIWYG, is that beyond the coding of the PHP, there's design involved, and dreamweaver's design outlook can show you if you've missed a table-header, or put a crooked image code or the likes on real time without needing to save it first (which can be quite helpful in avoiding really annoying mistakes).

 

It's hard enough to start coding scripts inside HTML pages, at least you can avoid your HTML being screwed with the design-view feature in dreamweaver. At least in my humble opinion

 

~moo

[Klaynos]

Didn't know that one.. I'll definately check it out.

 

There is a problem' date=' though, with PHP (serverside scripting in whole, actually) -- it needs a server to run. So either you need to install a php server on your computer, or find a place to upload your stuff and continuously upload-and-check them (like I do mostly with my code).

 

Depends on your own convinience, really.

 

What I do think is good about Dreamweaver's ability to show WYSIWYG, is that beyond the coding of the PHP, there's design involved, and dreamweaver's design outlook can show you if you've missed a table-header, or put a crooked image code or the likes on real time without needing to save it first (which can be quite helpful in avoiding really annoying mistakes).

 

It's hard enough to start coding scripts inside HTML pages, at least you can avoid your HTML being screwed with the design-view feature in dreamweaver. At least in my humble opinion

 

~moo[/quote']

 

I try and keep my php and my html as seperate as possible anyway, normally my template pages that I create will render just fine by a browser without any of the php code that normally calls them having to execute. I can understand why you like that though. Have you ever used the firefox DOM inspector? If not have a look, it's really rather usefull.

[mooeypoo]

DOM inspector? hmm.. I will check it out..

 

About the rendering and code seperation, it's true up to a degree. I, for instance, have some pages that change their style according to PHP variables. The layout and design of the page stays the same, but depending on different PHP variables, the same page might look completely different.

 

I even have a page or two that has an internal Javascript code being built by the PHP code, depending what the supplied variables (like username and pass, and user access level, and database entries) are.. so when I do that, I find it very useful to work with Dreamweaver.

 

I can't even begin to count the number of times I started a "while" loop (sometimes with an inner 'if/and' condition or a 'for' loop and such) with inner <tr>'s that destroyed my entire upperlevel table in the page because I forgot some sort of end tag, or took one of the tags off the loops.

 

Dreamweaver's been a charm to instantly fix those. And it has great ability to make the design feature easy while not screwing up the code or putting unnecessary lines in it.

 

Also, its new features of code coloring, code sections, hide/show sections, syntax completer help, code picker and all the regular schebang is quite useful for those times you have the code in your mind and you're typing it, and don't want to stop for the tiny details the program just helps you out with.

 

But again: Everything is a matter of convinience and personal choice, I guess. I =can= program my entire PHP code in notepad, I just find it completely tedious..

 

~moo

[RyanJ]

I would recommends the Web Developer toolbar for Firefox, its useful for testing.

 

Also a Firebug if your developing JS apps - both are very useful.

 

-- Ryan Jones

[Kyle]

Kate on Linux is a great program. It colors your tags and programming and makes it very easy to find where you've made mistakes. It's not a WYSIWYG but I find it very useful for Javascript, PHP, HTML, and CSS.

[Klaynos]

Kate on Linux is a great program. It colors your tags and programming and makes it very easy to find where you've made mistakes. It's not a WYSIWYG but I find it very useful for Javascript, PHP, HTML, and CSS.

 

scite does that also, hence my suggestion, if you're using gnome and don't want all the KDE stuff required for kate, gedit does nice syntax editing also.

[Sayonara]

Not to detract from Klaynos' advice, but I would recommend against using w3schools.com.

 

Although you can learn a lot quickly, they have serious (and inexplicable) problems in that they teach for IE "standards" only, and use obsolete code.

 

 

 

I strongly recommend you learn the following to start off with:

 

Strict XHTML,

CSS 2,

PHP,

JavaScript.

 

The function of these is as follows:

 

XHTML - the basic structure of the web page, in line with current standards and compatible with new and developing w3.org technologies.

 

CSS 2 - the current standard for styling, decorating, and laying out HTML pages.

 

PHP - scripts providing dynamic generation of content based on user input or other variables, and the capacity to carry out all manner of tasks on the server.

 

JavaScript - a language allowing page or request tasks to be carried out by the client (i.e. the browser) instead of your server.

 

 

If you want to use database interactivity, mySQL will be the easiest way to go, and it has massive support across the web.

 

Later on you will probably want to learn Ajax with Ruby on Rails, as well as XML, although that rather depends on what kind of projects you are doing.

[-Demosthenes-]

Wow, I'll look into XHTML first then, it'll take me a while to be useful at any of this

[mooeypoo]

ooh, I just found this little Firefox plugin (it's quite nice, but I have only been using it for about 2 hours.. for web developpers:

 

https://addons.mozilla.org/thunderbird/1002/

 

Makes your Firefox work similarly to Dreamweaver; hence, takes Klaynos' recommendation and mixes it with mine.

 

Cool tool

 

~moo

[Klaynos]

Not to detract from Klaynos' advice' date=' but I would recommend against using w3schools.com.

 

Although you can learn a lot quickly, they have serious (and inexplicable) problems in that they teach for IE "standards" only, and use obsolete code.

 

 

 

I [b']strongly[/b] recommend you learn the following to start off with:

 

Strict XHTML,

CSS 2,

PHP,

JavaScript.

 

The function of these is as follows:

 

XHTML - the basic structure of the web page, in line with current standards and compatible with new and developing w3.org technologies.

 

CSS 2 - the current standard for styling, decorating, and laying out HTML pages.

 

PHP - scripts providing dynamic generation of content based on user input or other variables, and the capacity to carry out all manner of tasks on the server.

 

JavaScript - a language allowing page or request tasks to be carried out by the client (i.e. the browser) instead of your server.

 

 

If you want to use database interactivity, mySQL will be the easiest way to go, and it has massive support across the web.

 

Later on you will probably want to learn Ajax with Ruby on Rails, as well as XML, although that rather depends on what kind of projects you are doing.

 

I've never really used their tutorials, just the reference which genrally notes the IE complications but gives the standards.

 

Good advice I'd second. XHTML strict is the first thing you should learn without a doubt. Start off doing it right and you should never faulter.

[Dak]

i found this quite a useful demonstration of how CSSage is used.

[RyanJ]

I only have one more piece of advice, develop your web applications in Firefox or Opera first then work out how to hack it for IE compatibility.

 

This] page gives you some insight into exactly what is supported in what browser (greater detailed information is also available too).

 

Other than that I agree with what Sayonara said

 

-- Ryan Jones

[-Demosthenes-]

Not to detract from Klaynos' advice' date=' but I would recommend against using w3schools.com.

 

Although you can learn a lot quickly, they have serious (and inexplicable) problems in that they teach for IE "standards" only, and use obsolete code.

 

 

 

I [b']strongly[/b] recommend you learn the following to start off with:

 

Strict XHTML,

CSS 2,

PHP,

JavaScript.

 

The function of these is as follows:

 

XHTML - the basic structure of the web page, in line with current standards and compatible with new and developing w3.org technologies.

 

CSS 2 - the current standard for styling, decorating, and laying out HTML pages.

 

PHP - scripts providing dynamic generation of content based on user input or other variables, and the capacity to carry out all manner of tasks on the server.

 

JavaScript - a language allowing page or request tasks to be carried out by the client (i.e. the browser) instead of your server.

 

 

If you want to use database interactivity, mySQL will be the easiest way to go, and it has massive support across the web.

 

Later on you will probably want to learn Ajax with Ruby on Rails, as well as XML, although that rather depends on what kind of projects you are doing.

 

When you say "strictly xhtml" does that mean without learning html? Most books I can find pair xhtml with html (or javascript). Should I be avoiding html?

 

What do you think of this: http://www.amazon.com/HTML-XHTML-Definitive/dp/059600382X/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_3/102-2741230-1826532?ie=UTF8

or:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Perspectives-HTML/dp/061926747X/sr=1-4/qid=1156992559/ref=sr_1_4/102-2741230-1826532?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

XHTML is basically a revised HTML, and the changes are so minor (relatively speaking) that getting a XHTML/HTML book would not hurt at all.