Prejudice or Perspicacity? Racist or Realist?

[Severian]

severian stepped in with an unsuported assertation of his own' date=' to which you responded by rehashing your unsuported claim, etc etc.

[/quote']

 

Would you care to provide a link to (or quote) this 'unsuported assertion' which I alledgedly made? I see no such thing in this thread. It is only fair that you provide evidence - otherwise, your claim is just an 'unsuported assertion'.

[Dak]

Would you care to provide a link to (or quote) this 'unsuported assertion' which I alledgedly made? I see no such thing in this thread. It is only fair that you provide evidence - otherwise, your claim is just an 'unsuported assertion'.

 

i did in an earlyer post, which seems to have been deleted, along with your earlyer post that i was refferensing.

 

it was the 'you are just plain wrong' statement. there's no way that can be viewed as supported.

 

 

Given that my post was deleted, i'll repeat part of it:

 

I'm not having a go at you or paranoia, just using the conversation as an example.

[Bettina]

Honestly, I think I'll just go.

 

Don't!... Your one of the good people here and I for one don't want you to go. The mods and admins are having a rough time so give them a chance. Take a break.... read a book.... go get ice cream. Just cool it.

 

Bee

[Bettina]

Now' date=' let's try with Islam. Comape this:

"Islam is an inherently violent and oppressive religion."

to this:

"Many Islamic traditions have stances on women's rights and violence which give me cause for concern, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point."[/quote']

 

That was a good example and I'm guilty of the former so I'll try it your way.

 

Many Islamic traditions have stances on womens rights, violence, and racism which cause me to distrust the meanings of the religion, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point.

 

Koran verse 9.30 -- And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

 

Koran verse 5.51 -- O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

 

Koran verse 3.151 -- We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust

 

Koran verse 4.34 -- Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

 

Basically the Koran says the husband should first warn his wife, and if that fails then ground her like a child, and if that fails, to beat her until she submits because she is the servent. So much for womens rights.

 

More on womens oppression....

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=154070&Sn=WORL&IssueID=29162

 

Bettina

[Pangloss]

IMO Bettina's post above represents more than sufficient justification for the position that she's posted. I also happen to disagree with her conclusions, and would respond on point by indicating similar flaws in other religions, and suggest that the production of terrorists has more to do with environmental and political issues than religious ones. Much of which she's agreed with in the past. And at the end we would agree to disagree and move on! That's because we respect one another's views, and place value in each other's opinions. Isn't that what this is all about?

 

Where is the great harm in having that conversation? Who in their right mind would be so insulted by such a discussion that they would feel the need to get somebody banned or warned? Are people's views of the world so precarious that they cannot withstand a little introspective discourse?

 

Egalitarian debate only works when people are WILLING TO LISTEN TO ONE ANOTHER.

[Dak]

with reguards to 3.151, i suspect your getting slightly confused with the word 'terror'... i suspect (tho do not know) that the terror to which the verse refers is the terror of going to hell, not terrorism-class terror, which is what your enboldening of the word implies that you are interpreting it as.

 

other than that, i certainly wouldn't label that as a bad argument, and i'd be inclined to generally agree.

 

i appologise if the following sounds patronising. it's not intended to be, but i can't think how else to word it.

 

do you see the significance of the difference between this:

 

"Many Islamic traditions have stances on womens rights, violence, and racism which cause me to distrust the meanings of the religion, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point."

 

and phrases such as 'islam is evil'?

 

note, for example, that the latter doesn't neccesarily follow from the former.

 

as someone who's repeatedly had a go at you over this issue, i appologise for never having managed to explain it as well as mokele did.

[Bettina]

with reguards to 3.151' date=' i suspect your getting slightly confused with the word 'terror'... i suspect (tho do not know) that the terror to which the verse refers is the terror of going to hell, not terrorism-class terror, which is what your enboldening of the word implies that you are interpreting it as.

 

other than that, i certainly wouldn't label that as a bad argument, and i'd be inclined to generally agree.

 

i appologise if the following sounds patronising. it's not intended to be, but i can't think how else to word it.

 

do you see the significance of the difference between this:

 

"Many Islamic traditions have stances on womens rights, violence, and racism which cause me to distrust the meanings of the religion, and the following Quaran passages illustrate my point."

 

and phrases such as 'islam is evil'?

 

note, for example, that the latter doesn't neccesarily follow from the former.

 

as someone who's repeatedly had a go at you over this issue, i appologise for never having managed to explain it as well as mokele did.[/quote']

 

You probably did but I kept my eyes closed. Your ok with me Dak.

 

Bee

[Bettina]

I am proud to be on the same board with you and think you contribute a lot.

 

hope this made a little sense.

 

Salaam (peace)' date='

 

Martin abu dhabu ben Martin, your Arab sympathizer friend:D[/quote']

 

Thank you Martin. Your becoming my mentor. I have been called a racist and a bigot by some members here and that hurts me. I'm not that kind of person so when someone says nice things it really helps.

 

Sorry I don't know any Arab or Israeli talk if you are one of those. When I play my multiplayer online game at night with some of my German friends, we text taunt each other and I have no clue what their saying. They try some english but its rarely understandable. We get along anyway.

 

Your Italian american friend...

 

Bee

[GutZ]

Ok' date=' you're misunderstanding me. First, the quotes from the Koran can be googled, which is what I did. I didn't think I needed to provide a source since it's easily proven. I apologize.

 

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

 

Second, what kind of proof do you require? Those lines contain racism. Done deal.

 

Lastly, the truth I've been referring to is the context of censorship in the pursuit of it. That's what I was going on and on about - not allowing genuine debate due to controversial subject matter circumventing the truth.[/quote']

 

I apologize if I misunderstood, but I don't think I have. I've hit those same quotes when I googled. I also googled different interpretation of the same verse.

 

Let's say I state ones that are contrary to yours. Who is correct? even if you stated the source, which one is better?

 

The only problem I had was that it was assumed from the beginning that one source of questionable authenticity gathered from the internet was the set axiom for the whole discussion. I came in saying that it wasn't true, not that my sources were correct, but the axiom was false, it wasn't widely excepted that it was the true translation (whether or not it is).

 

It's like asking a group of people do you agree with "statement A"? and 5 people say no, yet they get ignored.

 

So to me I don't see it as a done deal. How that relates to the OP is that whether or not censorship is necessary, and about realism. I felt that it wasn't realism if one ignores that there is another side to it. At the same time I don't think anyone was being racist either.

 

Hopefully that makes more sense. hopefully.

[Jim]

The entire "the problem is Islam" vrs "Islam is in no way part of the problem" debate is premised on a false dichotomy. I think either position is uncessarily extreme. Islam is a part of a larger picture and there is no reason to think it is completely the problem any more than there is reason to think that has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem.

[ParanoiA]

I apologize if I misunderstood' date=' but I don't think I have. I've hit those same quotes when I googled. I also googled different interpretation of the same verse.

 

Let's say I state ones that are contrary to yours. Who is correct? even if you stated the source, which one is better?

 

The only problem I had was that it was assumed from the beginning that one source of questionable authenticity gathered from the internet was the set axiom for the whole discussion. I came in saying that it wasn't true, not that my sources were correct, but the axiom was false, it wasn't widely excepted that it was the true translation (whether or not it is).

 

It's like asking a group of people do you agree with "statement A"? and 5 people say no, yet they get ignored.

 

So to me I don't see it as a done deal. How that relates to the OP is that whether or not censorship is necessary, and about realism. I felt that it wasn't realism if one ignores that there is another side to it. At the same time I don't think anyone was being racist either.

 

Hopefully that makes more sense. hopefully.[/quote']

 

I didn't believe my source was the set axiom for the whole discussion. I guess I didn't question the source since I've used a variety of google results in these discussions. They've all been pretty much the same. I didn't realize this was such an issue. Although, I have noticed many posters use that site - http://www.hti.umich.edu/.

 

When you say you googled a different interpretation, do you mean a different translation? I would like to see that. Why didn't you include that in your reply here?

 

I have not presented Islam as being racist as "truth", I have presented it as being racist per my "belief", based on evidence, some of which I have provided. I started out on the other side of it, so I think I've given it a fair shake.

 

The "truth" I was eluding to earlier in this thread has to do with the freedom to pursue it - even if it offends the followers of Islam to do so. I also agree, I don't think it's racist to do that.

[Phi for All]

I have not presented Islam as being racist as "truth"' date=' I have presented it as being racist per my "belief", based on evidence, some of which I have provided. I started out on the other side of it, so I think I've given it a fair shake.

 

The "truth" I was eluding to earlier in this thread has to do with the freedom to pursue it - even if it offends the followers of Islam to do so. I also agree, I don't think it's racist to do that.[/quote']I appreciate the fact that you have kept your arguments centered around these premises, that while Islam as a religion may be part of the problem with terrorism we have not established either that it's members all feel that unbelievers should die or that the religion is the sole problem. I for one am not arguing that the discussion of Islam as the sole factor or even the main factor contributing to terrorism is offensive; my point is that those who have made up their minds that all of Islam is as intolerant and corrupted as the KKK or the Nazis and who post that opinion here are guilty of prejudice.

 

I am willing, as a Moderator, to adjust the way I view opinions which may be against some of our policies. This is a forum that wants to encourage discussion and debate, but intolerant mindsets often cause the most trouble here. I urge everyone here to challenge those who post intolerant opinions, ask them to back up assertions that generalize and stereotype. I can reserve the Racist / Prejudiced Remarks warning for those who continue to cast slurs even after their arguments have been disproved. It's a lot more work keeping track of such things but I don't want members thinking this is some kind of power trip or censorship angle.

 

If anyone has anything *new* to add, please do so. This is the type of thread that will continually get bumped by newcomers and latecomers, so it will need to be closed eventually. Have your say if you haven't already, but I think most are agreed on the following points:

• Islam is part of the problem with terrorism but not all of the problem
  
• Not all terrorists are Islamic and not all Islamics are terrorists
  
• It is important to continue to study Islam to make sure it can tolerate non-believers
  

[Jim]

.... while Islam as a religion may be part of the problem with terrorism we have not established either that it's members all feel that unbelievers should die or that the religion is the sole problem.

 

We are nearing a point of complete agreement.

 

I for one am not arguing that the discussion of Islam as the sole factor or even the main factor contributing to terrorism is offensive; my point is that those who have made up their minds that all of Islam is as intolerant and corrupted as the KKK or the Nazis and who post that opinion here are guilty of prejudice.

 

There are glaring difference between Islam as a whole and the Nazis. However, their is a subset of Muslims who can fairly be compared to the Nazis in their methods and objectives The question for our century is whether they will come to completely dominate Muslim culture and government as the Nazi's came to dominate Germany.

 

You can see the danger:

 

The Nazi's started with a small minority in the population but appealed to broad mystical notions of prejudice. They came to dominate Germany and then Europe.

 

The Islamist "nazis" (for want of a better world) want to persuade 1/3rd of the world's population as a stepping stone to making Islam the one religion allowed on the globe.

 

The methods are different. THe ideology is different but the danger is very real.

 

For me, it was a defining historical event to see the Islamic world erupt over a silly but basic expression of freedom of speech in liberal democracies. The British poll suggest these attitudes are not anecdotal.

 

The solution is not for us to be namby pamby in our words or to in any way self censor. We should be running a daily cartoon that offends until Muslims learn that they cannot deter us from our own freedoms. The world's leaders should be clear in the problems that exist within Islam, even as they practice healthy introspection.

 

If they kill us for our honest expressions of opinion, that is a reflection on them and we will have defined the problem further. Merely letting this thing percolate is no solution.

 

 

I am willing, as a Moderator, to adjust the way I view opinions which may be against some of our policies. This is a forum that wants to encourage discussion and debate, but intolerant mindsets often cause the most trouble here. I urge everyone here to challenge those who post intolerant opinions, ask them to back up assertions that generalize and stereotype. I can reserve the Racist / Prejudiced Remarks warning for those who continue to cast slurs even after their arguments have been disproved. It's a lot more work keeping track of such things but I don't want members thinking this is some kind of power trip or censorship angle.

 

Phi, I've never thought you were anything less than 100% sincere. These are difficult questions on which universities accross the country are struggling.

[GutZ]

I didn't believe my source was the set axiom for the whole discussion. I guess I didn't question the source since I've used a variety of google results in these discussions. They've all been pretty much the same. I didn't realize this was such an issue. Although' date=' I have noticed many posters use that site - http://www.hti.umich.edu/.

 

When you say you googled a different interpretation, do you mean a different translation? I would like to see that. Why didn't you include that in your reply here?

 

I have not presented Islam as being racist as "truth", I have presented it as being racist per my "belief", based on evidence, some of which I have provided. I started out on the other side of it, so I think I've given it a fair shake.

 

The "truth" I was eluding to earlier in this thread has to do with the freedom to pursue it - even if it offends the followers of Islam to do so. I also agree, I don't think it's racist to do that.[/quote']

 

 

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING1

http://www.twf.org/Library/Violence.html

 

Well, I posted some way back, maybe in just link form. I couldn't re-find the ones that were different from yours but I can PM them to you if I find them again (which I usually do).

 

Mustget back to work! Look around if you want, but it's annoying trying to get unbaised information. Which really sucks in this case because it's crucial.

[Aardvark]

If your opinion is discriminatory towards a group, should it matter whether the group is gays, blacks, Muslims, or Poles? We have a policy against Prejudiced / Racist remarks to prevent people from being judged by what their "group" does. Do remarks like this against Islam count as a violation?

 

I am prejudiced against members of Aryan Nation. I judge people on the basis of their membership of that group.

 

Would making remarks to that effect count as a violation?

 

 

I think we'd have to prove that the vast majority of Muslims will only accept conversion or death before we can judge individual Muslims by their whole religion. If we can't then we need to stop blaming all of Islam for terrorism.

 

I think it is quite possible to see that the ideology of Islam is such as it leads toward and encourages violence. As such it is quite possible to blame Islam for much contemporary terrorism. That is not the same as blaming all individual Muslims, just as condemning communism was not the same thing as condemning all Russians during the Cold war.

[Aardvark]

 

I think most are agreed on the following points:

• Islam is part of the problem with terrorism but not all of the problem
   
  
• Not all terrorists are Islamic and not all Islamics are terrorists
   
  
• It is important to continue to study Islam to make sure it can tolerate non-believers
  

 

The first two points are reasonable as far as they go (although the second point is a little like refering the WW2 and saying that not all Nazis are German and not all Germans are Nazis) but the third point confuses me.

 

How does our studying Islam have any effect on its tolerance of non believers?

[Phi for All]

I am prejudiced against members of Aryan Nation. I judge people on the basis of their membership of that group.

 

Would making remarks to that effect count as a violation?

We've established that groups which actively practice (and are practically defined by) discrimination are exempt from fair treatment when it comes to our policy. When all of the members of a group feel the same way about something' date=' it's obviously correct to make generalized statements about them. Such statements would not be pre-judging them.

How does our studying Islam have any effect on its tolerance of non believers?

If it is determined, through study and experience, that all of Islam is a religion which ultimately calls for either conversion or condemnation, then we can easily determine that the ideology is not one with which we can peacefully live, and that it is like the Aryan Nation, the KKK and the Nazis with regards to prejudicial remarks.

[Aardvark]

.

If it is determined' date=' through study and experience, that all of Islam is a religion which ultimately calls for either conversion or condemnation, then we can easily determine that the ideology is not one with which we can peacefully live, and that it is like the Aryan Nation, the KKK and the Nazis with regards to prejudicial remarks.[/quote']

 

Islam is quite easy to study and understand as it is not ambiguous. The Koran is believed to be the absolute and direct word of God. Its instructions are the uncontradictable orders which Muslims must obey.

 

And they have such charming rules as the mandatory death sentence for any Muslim who converts to another religion. That rule is imposed.

 

Mohammeds last words were an injuction to his followers to force all the world to convert. Everywhere in the world that is majority Muslim is the result of bloody conquest.

 

Imagine if their was a law in Britain that any Christian who convertd to another religion was to be executed. And that this law was implemented. Imagine that the building of Mosques and Synagoges was banned and the display of any religious symbols other than Christian ones was severely punished by beatings.

 

I imagine you would be quite outspoken in your condemnation of that. Yet Islam always seems to be judged by much easier standards.

 

Why is that?

[Phi for All]

Islam is quite easy to study and understand as it is not ambiguous. The Koran is believed to be the absolute and direct word of God. Its instructions are the uncontradictable orders which Muslims must obey.

 

And they have such charming rules as the mandatory death sentence for any Muslim who converts to another religion. That rule is imposed.

 

Mohammeds last words were an injuction to his followers to force all the world to convert. Everywhere in the world that is majority Muslim is the result of bloody conquest.

 

Imagine if their was a law in Britain that any Christian who convertd to another religion was to be executed. And that this law was implemented. Imagine that the building of Mosques and Synagoges was banned and the display of any religious symbols other than Christian ones was severely punished by beatings.

 

I imagine you would be quite outspoken in your condemnation of that. Yet Islam always seems to be judged by much easier standards.

 

Why is that?

I don't consider them to be easier standards. I consider them to be standards which might allow Islam to grow as an ideology rather than assuming it's followers are always going to let their countries be ruled by their clergy. These standards may also keep us from the necessity of declaring war on all it's followers.

 

Is it your opinion that Islam and it's followers should be treated like the Aryan Nation, the KKK and the Nazi party with regards to our policies regarding Racist / Prejudiced Remarks?

[Pangloss]

This is a post that's flying around certain boards right now. I offer it up not as evidence that Islam is a violent religion, but rather to try and home in on the *discussion* about whether Islam is a violent religion. The point being that after a while the "yeah but they're all just straw men" argument wears a little thing.

 

I'm not even trying to vouch for the authenticity of all of these points, mind. Heck, I haven't even read them all. I'm just saying that the people who are taking up that position have a prima fascie case, and if we're going to have a true open debate on the subject, then their case deserves to be heard.

 

-----------

 

In July 1968, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) hijacked Israeli El Al Airplanes.

 

In 1970, Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) killers attacked bus in West Bank, killing Barbara Ertle of Michigan and wounding two others from the US.

 

In March 1970, PFLP lodged rockets at US Embassy, Beirut, as well as the American Insurance Company, Bank of America and John F. Kennedy library.

 

In September 1970, PFLP murderers took hold of four airliners, three of which were blown up.

 

In March 1972, PFLP engaged the Japanese Red Army to machine-gun and grenade attack Israel's main airport. Twenty-six were slain, 78 wounded, many from the US.

 

In September 1972, Arab killers attacked Olympic Village, Munich, Germany, kidnapping nine Israelis and slaying two others. A grenade slaughtered athletes while others were trying to rescue them. A German policeman is slain. Jews killed totaled eleven.

 

In 1973, Back September Muslim killers slew US ambassador, Cleo A. Noel, and charge d'affaires and a Belgian diplomat.

 

In June 1976, Arab killers hijacked an Air France flight from Tel Aviv.

 

In August 1976, PFLP attacked Israel's main airline, El Al. Four were slain, 20 injured.

 

In March 1977, Muslim murderers took 134 hostages near the White House. One is slain, 12 wounded, in the seizing of the Islamic Center, the international headquarters of B'nai Brith and Washington's City Hall.

 

In February 1979, the US ambassador to Afghanistan is slain by Afghan militia.

 

In November 1979, Muslims take over US Embassy in Tehran, Iran; 66 diplomats are held hostage. Also, in that month the US Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan, is taken by Muslim murderers. The building is set ablaze, killing four.

 

In June 1981, Muslim killers slay Coptics in their burnt out homes in Egypt. Eighty-one Coptics died with more than a hundred gravely wounded. Eighty houses were destroyed and looted.

 

In the same month, Anwar Sadat, Egyptian President, was slain by members of the Takfir Wal-Hajira sect. Eight others were murdered at Sadat's reviewing stand.

 

In January 1982, Lebanese killers murder American military attache Lt. Col. Charles R. Ray as he leaves his apartment.

 

In August 1982, PLO killers slay two from the US who were eating out at a Jewish restaurant in Paris.

In the same month, Lebanese murderers slew an American embassy employee by releasing a bomb under his car.

 

In September 1982, Muslim killers slew Lebanese Prime Minister Bashir Gemayel via a car bomb in Beirut.

 

In March 1983, five Marines are slain by Islamic Jihad and Al-Amal militia.

 

In April 1983, an Islamic suicide car-bomber kills 63 at the US Embassy in Beirut. Inured: 120. Islamic Jihad claimed planners of the attack.

 

In October 1983, 241 US Marines were slain by Islamic Jihad. They were killed in their Beirut barracks. Also, 50 UN peacekeepers were slain at the French military barracks.

 

In December 1983, Five were killed, 86 wounded in Kuwait City when Islamic killers set off car bombs in front of the US and French embassies.

 

In January 1984, American University of Beirut Prescient Malcolm Kerr was slain by Islamic Jihad.

 

In April 1984, eighteen American service personnel were slain by Islamic killers in Torrejon, Spain.

 

In September 1984, Islamic Jihad damaged the US Embassy in Lebanon, killing two Americans, twenty Americans wounded.

 

In April 1985, American service personnel were slain by Muslims in Madrid, Spain.

 

In June 1985, Lebanese Shiite murderers threatened Captain John Testrake in his cockpit of hijacked TWA Flight 847. Muslims kill US Navy diver Robert Stethem, tossing his body around carelessly.

 

In August 1985, a US soldier is slain by Muslims in Frankfurt.

 

In October 1985, PLO killers hijack Italian cruise liner. A 69-year-old man is shot in his wheelchair, then thrown overboard in his wheelchair.

 

In November 1985, EgyptAir Flight 648 is hijacked by Muslim killers. Fifty-eight were slain or burnt alive.

 

In December 1985, Muslim slayers killed 20 at US and Israeli check-in desks in Rome and Vienna international airports.

 

In that same month, Abu Nidal's group seized El Al offices in Rome. Thirteen were slain, five being from the US, 74 wounded.

 

In May 1986, TWA Flight 840 was shot through, leaving a hole in its side. A bomb explosion was set loose by Arab Revolutionary Cells. Also, four from the US were slain when a bomb exploded on a TWA jet going from Rome to Athens. The ARC claimed responsibility.

 

In April 1986 Americans were bombed in a West Berlin restaurant.

 

In September 1986, Muslim killers hijacked Pan Am 747, leaving 20 slain.

 

In October 1986, an American was murdered by a grenade leveled by Fatah at the Western Wall, Jerusalem.

 

In February 1989, bookstores in Berkeley, CA were bombed by Muslims in protest of Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses."

 

In March 1989, US Navy Captain Will C. Rogers' wife is attacked by a car bomb.

 

In October 1991, Ankara, Turkey, a US soldier is slain and his wife wounded by Turkish Islamic Jihad.

 

In the same month, a US Air Force sergeant is slain via car bombing with Turkish Islamic Jihad claiming responsibility.

 

In November 1991, American University, Beirut, administration building is bombed, killing one and wounding over 12 more.

 

In March 1992, Muslims attack and kill an Archpriest, a Monk, and three laypersons at the St. Mary's Monastery, El-Mouharak, Asyut.

In that same month, Hizbullah said it blasted the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 29, wounding 242.

 

In October 1992, Islamics attack, destroy and loot homes in El-Qousya, Asyut.

 

In January 1993, a Palestinian shoots two CIA employees, wounding three others near CIA headquarters, Langley, VA.

 

In that same month, Ramzi Yousef was judged as heading up the 1993 World Trade Center bombing as well as the 1994 explosion on Philippine Airlines Flight 434.

 

In February 1993, six were killed by Islamic murderers. They set loose explosives in the World trade Center.

In the same month, a Cairo café attack slew three via bomb.

 

In April 1993, former US President George Bush was under assassination attack while in Kuwait.

 

In June 1993, Islamics ambush UN peacekeeping personnel, killing 23.

 

In August 1993, Islamics kill 4 from US in Somalia.

 

In September 1993, Muslim murderers shot down US UH-60 blackhawk over Mogadishu. Servicemen's bodies were strewn in the streets. In October, American service personnel's bodies were dragged through the avenues of Mogadishu.

 

In July 1994, a bomb explosion set by Islamics in Buenos Aires, laid low Jewish organization headquarters, killing over 85, wounding over 200.

 

In December 1994, an Islamic bomb on Philippine Airlines Flight 434 killed Haruki Ikegami, Japanese businessman.

In that same month, Armed Islamic Group took hold of Air France Flight to Algeria.

 

In March 1995, Islamics opened fire on US Consulate van in Karachi, slaying two US diplomats and wounding a third.

 

In September 1995, a grenade was thrown through the US Embassy window, Moscow.

 

In November 1995, a car bomb at Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, US military location slew seven, wounding 60. Islamist Movement for Change and Fighting Advocates of God took responsibility.

 

In that same month, a suicide bomber killed 16 at the Egyptian Embassy, Islamabad, Pakistan.

 

In February 1996, Muslims in Egypt took a Coptic village, leveling homes, animal, crops and fields.

 

In June 1996, a fuel truck exploded near Dharan, Saudi Arabia with 19 Americans slain by Husbollah.

 

In August 1996, French Archbishop of Oran's home was bombed, slaying him and his chauffeur. The Algerian Armed Islamic Group did it.

 

In December 1996, a Paris subway train was exploded, killing four, wounding 86.

 

In February 1997, a dozen Coptic Christians are killed while worship in their Abu Quorcas church.

 

In the same month, an Islamic teacher fired at tourists at the Empire State Building New York, NY. A Danish national was killed, visitors were wounded.

 

In November 1997, Islamics slew four American auditors for Union Texas Petroleum Company and their Pakistani driver in Karachi. The Islamic Inqilabi Council and the Aimal Secret Committee said they did it.

 

In the same month, 58 were slain by murderers at the Hatshepsut's Temple, Egypt.

 

In August 1998, bombs bases the US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Blasts slew 247 in Nairobi and 10 in Dar es Salaam, more then 5000 wounded.

 

In November 1999, rockets fired at US Information Services cultural center and UN offices in Islamabad, Pakistan, wounded Pakistani guard.

 

In January 2000, Coptic Christians' funeral in El-Kosheh, Egypt, due to Muslim murderers' attack.

 

In October 2000, USS Cole's port side view shows damage via Muslim attack via bomb explosion during refueling in Aden, Yemen. Seventeen sailors were slain, 30 wounded. Bin Laden: the ship sailed "to its doom. . .(along a course of ) false arrogance, self-conceit, and strength."

 

In December 2000, Muslim on his way to bomb Los Angeles Airport is arrested at US / Canadian border. He has over 100 pounds of explosives in his vehicle. Algerian Ahmed Ressam informs authorities that he was schooled in a camp in Afghanistan, the latter overseen by bin Laden.

 

On September 11, 2001, Islamic killers international highjack planes, then crash into the World Trade Center, New York, killing more than 5000. Soon thereafter another hijacked plane smashes into the Pentagon. Sixty-four passengers and crew as well as 125 military and civilian personnel were slain with 80 wounded. Another hijacked plane with 44 onboard crashed into Shanksville PA field. All were slain by Arab Islamic zealots.

 

In October 2001, Muslim murderers slay worshipers in Tomata Indonesian church.

 

In the same month, Muslim killers shoot into church, slaying 18, in Bahawalpur, Model Town, Pakistan.

 

In December 2001, Muslim murderers slay Christian community, killing five, in Vwang, Nigeria.

 

In January 2002, Daniel Pearl, Wall Street Journal reporter, was kidnapped by Muslim murderers in Karachi. He was later slain.

 

In February 2002, worshipers in a Coptic Church in Egypt were set afire.

 

In that same month, three Christians were murdered by Islamics in Ilorin, Nigeria.

 

In that same month in Amman, Jordan, a vehicle was blown apart via car bomb, slaying an Egyptian and Iraqi laborer. The car was owned by the wife of the head of the Jordanian Anti-Terrorism Unit.

 

In March 2002 in Islamabad Pakistan, five are slain via grenade in a church. Forty-seven are wounded.

 

In April 2002 in Tunisia, Islamic suicide bombers kills 26 in historic synagogue. Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Sites says they did it.

 

In the same month, Muslim killers slay twelve worshipers in a Christian village, leaving six wounded.

 

In May 2002 in Pakistan, a bus exploded, murdering 12 and wounding 19. Al-Qaida was suspected.

 

In the same month in Kapiisk, Russia, Muslim murderers set loose a bomb in the bushes that slew 42, wounding 150 others. Islamic al-Qaida suspected.

 

In May 2002, car bombs explode near US Consulate and Marriott Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan with eleven dead and 51 wounded. Al-Qaida suspected.

 

In June 2002, Islamic killers fired into a Neelum Valley, Pakistani bus, forcing it over a cliff, killing 10 persons, injuring 12 others.

 

In July 2002, grenades thrown into tourists in Mansebra.

 

In August 2002, six missionaries taken, two beheaded, in the Philippines. In Jhika Gali, Murree, Pakistan, at a Christian missionary school six are slain and four wounded in Islamic murdering attack against believers.

 

In August 2002, Kabul Afghanistan witnesses bomb explosion outside UN guesthouse, two wounded. Muslim killers suspected.

 

In September 2002 in Ahmedabad India, Muslims attack and slay Hindu monks and dozens of worshipers in a temple. Lashkar-e-Toiba takes responsibility.

 

In October 2002 in Dhabbah, Yemen, explosives kill one and wound four on French oil tanker Limburg.

 

In October 2002 in Kuwait, Muslims kill one US Marine and wound another as the latter are conducting a non-live-fire exercise.

 

In the same month in Bali, 187 tourists are slain by Muslim murderers at San Club on Legian Street. Al-Qaida told press they did it.

 

In November 2002 in Mombaasa Kenya, 15 killed by suicide bomber, 40 wounded. Al-Ittihad suspected.

 

In the same month in Mombasa Kenya, two SA-7 Strela antiaircraft missiles were launched but missed downing a Arkia Boeing 757. Al-Qaida, the Government of Universal Palestine in Exile, and the Army of Palestine claimed they did it.

 

In December 2002 in Makassar Indonesia, McDonald's restaurant is exploded via bomb, 3 killed, 11 wounded. Laskar Jundullah did it.

 

In December 2002, three worshipers are slain and fourteen wounded in church in Daska Pakistan. Muslims are suspected.

 

In February 2003, Muslims kill fourteen and wound 8 worshipers in Christian village in Philippines.

 

In March 2003 in Mindanao, Philippines, a bus is attacked by Moro Islamic Liberation Front, killing nine and injuring four.

 

In April 2003 in Davao Philippines, a bomb kills 15 and wounds 55. Jemaah Islamiyah is responsible.

 

In May 2003, suicide bombers storm a residential complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, leaving 35 dead, wounding 200. Al-Qaeda suspected.

 

In May 2003, bomb attacks in Casablanca fly into restaurant, hotel, Jewish cemetery, Jewish Community Center and Belgian Consulate, leaving 33 dead and 101 wounded. Salfiya Jihadiya suspected.

 

In July 2003, a Catholic priest in Ranala Kot, Pakistan, was shot and slain in his home. Muslim "fundamentalists" are said to have done it.

 

In August 2003, Jakarta, Indonesia, Marriott hotel is bombed, killing 10, wounding 150. Jemaah Islamiyah suspected.

 

In the same month, a truck exploded in Baghdad, Iraq, killing 23, wounding 100.

 

In September 2003, a car bomb exploded near UN headquarters, killing a guard and wounding 18 in Baghdad, Iraq.

 

In October 2003, a car bomb exploded at Baghdad Hotel housing US and Iraqi officials, leaving 38 dead and 45 wounded.

 

In November 2003, a rocket was set loose in Kabul, Afghanistan. Taliban and al-Qaida suspected.

 

In December 2003, Kerbala government and foreign troops' buildings were attacked by Muslim suicide squads, killing 19, wounding 120.

 

In the same month, in Baghdad, Iraq, car bombs exploded outside Nabil Restaurant, eight killed, 35 wounded.

 

In January 2004 in Marathiwat, Thailand, Islamic killers stormed an armory, setting it on fire as well as burning 18 schools, leaving four dead and an unknown number wounded.

 

In the same month, suicide car bombs strike US-led coalition's offices in Baghdad, Iraq, killing 31.

 

In February 2004, Islamic killers blow up an automobile packed with explosives in a crowd of Iraqis lined up outside an army recruiting building in Baghdad.

 

In the same month, Muslim murderers slay 49 farming community laborers in Nigeria. They had taken refuge in a church.

 

In the same month in Manveles, Philippines, Abu Sayyaf's group bombed a ferry, killing 200.

 

In March 2004, Muslim attackers killed 185 Iraqis in Baghdad and Karbala, Iraq, as they attended shrines.

 

In the same month, Muslim bombs attacked a commuter train complex in Madrid, Spain, killing 191, wounding 1,800. It was the deadliest attack since Lockerbie bombing in 1988 in Europe.

 

In the same month, nine from US were slain by Islamics via bomb explosion near Fallujah.

 

In April 2004, five suicide bombs exploded near police headquarters and academy with 74 slain and l160 wounded.

 

In the same month, Islamic killers via suicide car bomb slew 5 and wounded 150 in Riyadh.

 

In the same month, 24 were slain via roadside bomb hitting bus in Baghdad, Iraq.

 

In May 2004 in Saudi Arabia, Muslims slew six in attack on Western oil company offices in Red Sea city of Yanbu. The slain were then dragged through the streets.

 

In the same month in Fallujah, Iraq, four were slain via grenade. Mobs dragged the corpses through the streets.

 

In the same month, Islamics show video of beheading a man who was identified as Nick Berg from Philadelphia.

 

In the same month, 11 Christians were burnt alive by Islamics in two churches in Nigeria.

 

In the same month, President of Iraqi Governing Council Izzadine Saleem is slain by Islamic murderers.

 

In the same month, two are slain by a bomb at a shrine. Fifty others were wounded.

 

In the same month, in Ambon, Indonesia, bombs kill one and injure 13 in a Christian neighborhood. Another bomb goes off near a church.

 

In the same month in Barentu Nrritrea, seven are slain and 80 wounded by bomb blast.

 

In the same month in Pattani Thailand, Islamics kidnap Buddhist civilian, then behead him.

 

In the same month in Turbat Pakistan, Islamics kill a 14-year-old boy and dozens are injured in a rocket attack against the Minister of Education.

 

In June 2004, bombs explode close to US base in Beiji, slaying 11 and wounding 22.

 

In the same month in Rihadh, Frank Gardner, BBC's security correspondent, was critically injured and his cameraman Simon Cumbers was slain.

 

In the same month, car bombs exploded near American base in Taji, killing nine, wounding 30.

 

In the same month, car bomb explodes, killing US solider and five Iraqis with 15 others wounded.

 

In the same month, Muslims down Robert Jacob, American working for Vinnell Corp, Riyadh.

 

In the same month, suicide car bomb kills 12 in Baghdad, Iraq.

 

In the same month, car bombs explode in Baghdad, slaying 13. Crowd dances in the streets, showing "Down with the USA!"

 

In the same month, artillery shells slay 35, wound 138 in Baghdad, Iraq.

 

In the same month, US hostage Paul Marshal Johnson, American engineer for Lockheed Martin, is beheaded by Al-Qaeda.

 

In the same month in Zainapora India, Lashkar-e-Toiba murders kidnap two, later slitting their throats.

 

In July 2004 in Jakarta Indonesia, a priest was slain and four wounded when gunmen attacked their church. It was near the site where over 2000 Christians have been slain by Muslims.

[Bettina]

Unfortunately, that list won't help those who can't see. Now that I'm sick, I think I'll just go throw up.

 

Bee

[AL]

I'm not even trying to vouch for the authenticity of all of these points' date=' mind. [/quote']

I just went to check the most well-known attack (9/11) which you'd think they'd get the facts right on:

On September 11, 2001, Islamic killers international highjack planes, then crash into the World Trade Center, New York, killing more than 5000. Soon thereafter another hijacked plane smashes into the Pentagon. Sixty-four passengers and crew as well as 125 military and civilian personnel were slain with 80 wounded. Another hijacked plane with 44 onboard crashed into Shanksville PA field. All were slain by Arab Islamic zealots.

5000!?

[Pangloss]

Actually it's interesting that they have that particular number, because it suggests that the post originates from shortly after 9/11, when the number was still believed to be much higher than it turned out to be. It dates the post, in a sense. I haven't checked the "netmyth" sites on this, but I imagine it's posted on some of them to show accuracy/inaccuracy.

 

I hear you, Bettina, but see things differently. To me if it's true then it's verification of the need for objectivity and persistence in debate. Not to mention the importance of listening. Humans are very poor at full duplex communication.

[Bettina]

.... but [i'] see things differently

 

No you don't. You see things like I do but your mind handles it better.

 

Bee

[Dak]

And this is the argument that catholosism is a violent religon. unless otherwize stated, these refer to acts performed by the IRA or PIRA. note that it coveres a shorter period of time than the previous list.

 

taken, and editied quite a bit, from wikipedia.

 

* 26 June 1970: Three IRA members and two young girls killed when a bomb being assembled explodes accidentally in the Creggan, Derry.

* February 1971, Three off duty British soldiers abducted and shot and killed by IRA

* 11 December 1971: IRA killed four Protestant civilians in a bomb attack on a furniture shop on the Shankill Road in Belfast. Two of those who were killed in the explosion were children

* 4 December 1971: The McGurk's Bar bombing by the ulster volunteer force kills 15 people

* 1972:Bloodiest year of PIRA campaign, over 100 British soldiers killed, 500 shooting attacks and 1,300 bombing attacks. 94 IRA members die in this year.

* 4 March 1972:The Abercorn Restaurant in Belfast was bombed without warning. Two Catholic civilians were killed and over 130 people injured.

* 24 June 1972:The IRA killed three British Army soldiers in a land mine attack near Dungiven, County Londonderry.

* 21 July 1972: On "Bloody Friday" 22 bombs kill nine and seriously injure 130.

* December, 1972: Mother of ten, Jean McConville, is abducted and killed by the Provisional IRA, allegedly for informing the British Army of IRA activities, although her family contend that she was killed for comforting a wounded British soldier. The IRA would deny any involvement in the killing until the 1990s, when it would acknowledge its action

* 31 July 1972: Three car bomb explode in the Claudy bombings, in which nine people are killed on Claudy High Street near Londonderry.

* 22 August 1972:A bomb that was being planted by the IRA exploded prematurely at a customs post at Newry, County Down. Nine people, including three members of the IRA and five Catholic civilians, were killed in the explosion.

* 8 March 1973: IRA exploded two car bombs in London and killed one person and injured over 200 people.

* 4 February 1974: M62 Coach Bombing: A bomb planted on a coach carrying British Army personnel and their wives and families explodes as it is travelling along the M62 motorway at Birkenshaw. Twelve people are killed; nine soldiers and the wife and two young sons of one of them. [England]

* 17 May 1973:The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a booby-trap bomb attack on five members of the British Army who were off duty at the time. The attack occurred in Omagh, County Tyrone. [Four soldiers were killed on the day and the fifth soldier died on 3 June 1973.]

* 5 October 1974: The Guildford pub bombing kills five and injures 182. The motive for the bombing was that the pub attacked was frequented by off-duty, unarmed soldiers.

* 7 November, 1974: Two people are killed when a nail bomb containing 6lb of gelignite is thrown through the window of the Kings Head pub in Woolwich

* 21 November 1974: In the Birmingham Pub Bombings bombs in two pubs kill 19. * 1974: In December a bomb explodes on the first floor of Harrods department store in Knightsbridge. Part of the store is gutted but there are no injuries.

* 21 January 1975: There was a series of bomb explosions in Belfast in attacks carried out by the IRA. Two members of the IRA were killed when a bomb they were transporting by car exploded in Victoria Street, Belfast.

* 10 February 1975:The Irish Republican Army leadership declare a Truce. The ceasefire was to last officially until 23 January 1976, however it was not respected by all IRA units and violence continues throughout the year.

* 27 February 1975: Off-duty police officer Stephen Tibble is shot and killed as he joins in the chase of a suspect on his motorbike in Barons Court, London. The suspect had been spotted by a detective coming out of a house which was later discovered to be an IRA bomb factory.

* 17 July 1975:The IRA killed four British soldiers in a remote controlled bomb attack near Forkhill, County Armagh

* 13 August 1975: The IRA carried out a bomb and gun attack on the Bayardo Bar, Shankill Road, Belfast killing five people and injuring 40 others. One of those killed was a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) the other four were Protestant civilians

* 1 September 1975:Five Protestant civilians died and seven were injured as a result of an attack on an Orange Hall in Newtownhamilton, County Armagh. Responsibility for the attack was claimed by a group called the South Armagh Republican Action force (SARAF) which was considered by many commentators to be a covername for members of the IRA.

* 3 November 1975: Several people were injured by a car bomb planted by the Provisional IRA in Connaught Square, London W2.

* 29 October 1975:The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) shot and killed Robert Elliman (27), then a member of the Official IRA (OIRA), in McKenna's Bar in the Markets area of Belfast. [between 29 October 1975 and 12 November 1975, 11 people were to die in the continuing feud between the two wings of the IRA. Most of those killed were members of the 'official' republican movement.]

* 27 November 1975: The killing of businessman and TV personality Ross McWhirter, who with his brother Norris McWhirter, had offered reward money to anyone who would inform on the IRA.

* August 1975: Caterham pub bombing.

* 5 January 1976: IRA kills ten Protestant workers in the Kingsmill massacre, county Armagh in retaliation for loyalist killings of Catholics.

* 23 January 1976, IRA ceasefire officially called off.

* 21 July 1976: An IRA landmine kills Christopher Ewart-Biggs, the newly appointed British ambassador to the Republic of Ireland, resulting in the declaration of a State of Emergency in the Republic. His secretary, Judith Cook (25), was also killed in the explosion. The IRA also threatens to kidnap or kill Irish cabinet ministers and the President of Ireland.

* 2 February 1977:Jeffrey Agate (59), then Managing Director of the American Du Pont factory in Derry was shot and killed by members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) outside his home at Talbot Park, Derry. [This killing marked the beginning of a series of attacks on businessmen. There were further killings on 2 March 1977 and 14 March 1977.]

* 2 June 1977:Three members of an Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) mobile patrol were shot and killed by Irish Republican Army (IRA) snipers near Ardboe, County Tyrone. Part of ongoing attacks on Police and Army.

* 17 February 1978: La Mon Restaurant Bombing-Twelve people, all Protestant civilians, were killed and 23 badly injured when an IRA incendiary bomb exploded at the restaurant of the La Mon House Hotel, Gransha, near Belfast

* 14 November 1978:The Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out a number of bomb attacks in towns across Northern Ireland. Serious damage was caused in attacks in Armagh, Belfast, Castlederg, Cookstown, Derry and Enniskillen. Thirty-seven people were injured in the attacks. [This series of bomb attacks represented a renewed bombing campaign and over 50 bombs were exploded in the following week.]

* 5 January 1979:Two members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) were killed in a car in Ardoyne, Belfast, when the bomb they were transporting exploded prematurely

* 4 February 1979:Patrick MacKin (60), a former Prison Officer, and his wife Violet (58), were both shot and killed by the Irish Republican Army at their home in Oldpark Road, Belfast. Part of an escalating campaign against prison officers, co-inciding with the Dirty protest and Blanket protest in the Maze prison.

* 22 March 1979:Members of the IRA killed Richard Sykes (58), then British Ambassador to the Netherlands, and also his Dutch valet Krel Straub (19), in a gun attack in Den Haag, Netherlands. The IRA carried out a series of attacks across Northern Ireland with 24 bombs exploding on same day.

* 17 April 1979:Four Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers were killed when the Irish Republican Army (IRA) exploded an estimated 1,000 pound van bomb at Bessbrook, County Armagh.

* 2 August 1979:Two British soldiers were killed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) in a landmine attack at Cathedral Road, Armagh.

* 27 August 1979: An IRA bomb kills Earl Mountbatten of Burma, the British Queen's first cousin, members of his family and a local child off the Irish coast. On the same day the IRA kill 18 British soldiers at Narrow Water, near Newry, County Down; in an attack described by the British government as "a classic guerrilla attack", they first plant one bomb, which kills six, and then begin firing with sniper rifles at soldiers, driving them to cover at a nearby gate where a second bomb explodes, killing 12 others. During an Irish visit, Pope John Paul II calls for the IRA campaign of violence to come to an end. The IRA rejected his advice and declared that it had widespread support and that Britain would only withdraw from Northern Ireland if forced to do so: "force is by far the only means of removing the evil of the British presence in Ireland ... we know also that upon victory the Church would have no difficulty in recognising us".

* 16 December 1979:Four British soldiers were killed by a landmine bomb planted by the Irish Republican Army (IRA) at Ballygawley Road, near Dungannon, County Tyrone. Another soldier was killed by a booby-trap bomb at Forkhill, County Armagh. James Fowler, a former member of the Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), was shot and killed by the IRA in Omagh, County Tyrone.

* 1981: The PIRA kill Ulster Unionist Party Belfast MP Rev Robert Bradford along with the caretaker of a community centre.

* 10 October 1981: a bomb blast on Ebury Bridge Road in London kills two people and injures 39.

* 26 October 1981: a bomb explodes at a Wimpy Bar in Oxford Street London killing the bomb disposal officer trying to defuse it.

* 20 July 1982: The Hyde Park and Regents Park bombings: In Hyde Park, a bomb kills two members of the Household Cavalry performing ceremonial duties in the park. Seven of their horses are also killed. The deaths of the horses received almost as much coverage in the English tabloids as those of the men. On the same day another device kills seven bandsmen the Royal Green Jackets as it explodes underneath the bandstand in Regents Park as they played music to spectators.

* 1983: A Harrods department store bomb planted by the IRA during Christmas shopping season kills six (three police) and wounds 90.

* 1984: In the Brighton hotel bombing a bomb in the Grand Hotel kills five in a failed attempt to assassinate members of the British cabinet. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher narrowly escapes. Five people are killed, and one woman permanently disabled.

* 1985 February, IRA mortar attack on RUC police station in Newry kills 9 Police Officers

* 1987: In the Enniskillen "Massacre" the IRA bombing of a Remembrance Day parade kills 11 civilians and injures 63. Among the dead is nurse Marie Wilson, whose father, Gordon Wilson, would go on to become a leading campaigner for an end to violence in Northern Ireland.

* 1989: Ten Royal Marine bandsmen are killed and 22 injured in the bombing of their base in Deal in Kent.

* 1990: Car bombings in Northern Ireland kill seven and wound 37.

* 27 May 1990: Two Australian tourists shot and killed in the Netherlands, having been mistaken for off-duty British soldiers from a base across the German border.

* 20 July 1990: The IRA exploded a large bomb at the London Stock Exchange causing massive damage.

* 30 July 1990 Ian Gow MP is killed when a device explodes under his car as he is leaving his home.

* 19 September 1990: The IRA attempted to kill Air Chief Marshall Sir Peter Terry at his Staffordshire home. Sir Peter had been a prime target since his days as Governor of Gibraltar, where he signed the documents allowing the SAS to pursue IRA terrorists. The revenge attack took place at 9pm at the Main Road house. The gunman opened fire through a window hitting Sir Peter at least 9 times and injuring his wife, Lady Betty Terry, near the eye. The couple's daughter, Liz, was found suffering from shock. Sir Peter's face had to be rebuilt as the shots shattered Sir Peter's face and 2 high-velocity bullets lodged a fraction of an inch from his brain.

* 24 October 1990 IRA forces innocent civilian Patsy Gillespie to deliver explosives to a British Army checkpoint in a Proxy bomb attack.The bomb blows up and killd him and five soldiers

* 1990: A British Royal Artillery officer is killed by the IRA in Dortmund in the then West Germany.

* 18 February 1991: A bomb explodes at Victoria Station. One man is killed and 38 people injured.

* 1991: Mortar attack on members of the British Cabinet and the Prime Minister, John Major in Cabinet session at Number 10 Downing Street at the height of a huge security clampdown amid the Gulf War is launched by the IRA. The Cabinet collectively got under the table to protect themselves.

* 1991: Two IRA members are killed in St Albans when their bomb detonates prematurely.

* 28 February 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge railway station injuring 29 people.

* 10 April 1992: A large bomb explodes at 30 St Mary Axe in the City of London killing three people and injuring 91. Many buildings are heavily damaged and the Baltic Exchange is completely destroyed.

* 12 October 1992: A device explodes in the gents' toilet of the Sussex Arms public house in Covent Garden killing one person and injuring four others.

* 1992: Eight builders are killed by an IRA bomb on their way to work at an army base near Omagh.

* 1993: Two IRA bombs at opposite ends of a shopping street in Warrington, timed to go off within minutes of each other, kill two children.

* 1993: The PIRA detonates a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, which kills two and causes around £350m of damage, including the near destruction of St Ethelburga's Bishopsgate.

* 1993: The Shankill Road bombing at a fish and chip shop underneath a UDA office on the Protestant Shankill Road in Belfast detonates prematurely, killing ten, including one of the bombers and two children.

* 8 March 1994: Heathrow Airport, four mortar shells were fired toward Heathrow Airport from a car at night following telephone warnings in the name of the IRA,

* 10 March 1994: Heathrow Airport evacuated staff and passengers from Terminal Four and closed its southern runway after the second attack on the airport in 30 hours. four mortar shells were fired.

* 13 March 1994: Heathrow Airport, the IRA launched their third mortar attack on Heathrow defying tightening security. They fired four mortar bombs from a heavily camouflaged launcher buried in scrubland close to the southern perimeter. Later that night both Heathrow and Gatwick airports were closed for 2 hours after renewed coded telephoned bomb threats were received.

* 1 September 1994: The PIRA declares the first of two ceasefires in the 1990s.

* 10 February 1996: The IRA ends its 1994 ceasefire, killing two civilians in a bombing adjacent to the South Quay DLR station in London's Docklands.

* 15 February 1996: A 5 lb bomb placed in a phone booth is disarmed by Police on the Charing Cross Road in London.

* 18 February 1996: An improvised high explosive device detonates prematurely on a bus travelling along Aldwych in central London, killing Edward O'Brien, the IRA operative transporting the device and injuring eight others.

* 15 June 1996: The IRA detonates a 3,300 lb (1,500 kg) bomb in Manchester, injuring 206 people and damaging 70,000 square metres of retail and office space.

* 7 October 1996: the IRA kills one soldier and injures 31 people at the British Army's Northern Ireland HQ, Thiepval Barracks.

* 19 July 1997: The IRA declares a second ceasefire.

* 1998 January, IRA kills loyalist UDA paramilitary Bobby Dougan in retaliation for killings of Catholics.

* 1999 Former IRA man Eamon Collins killed by IRA near Newry for testifying against Thomas "Slab" Murphy, leader of South Armagh IRA in a libel case with the Sunday Times.

* 10 February 2005: The Independent Monitoring Commission reports that it firmly supports the PSNI and Garda assessments that the PIRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery and recommends financial and political sanctions against Sinn Féin.