The Trouble with Physics is number one on bestseller list

[Martin]

Hi Locrian and lucaspa,

 

My copy of TwP arrived! I have read much of the book.

 

Now we can talk about something CONCRETE and not just hearsay.

 

If anyone else here at SFN has read any part of the book and wants to give me a PAGE REFERENCE to anything Smolin says, that they would like to discuss or criticize or have questions about, that would be great.

 

I may not be able to answer every question but I can see what actual statement in the book you are talking about and try to respond!

 

Must say it's a pleasure to have the book in hand

[Martin]

As of 12 September 11:40 AM pacific, the amazon general physics bestseller list was like this (sampling other titles for context)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

#1 The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next (Smolin)

 

#2 The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (Greene)

 

#4 Not Even Wrong: the Failure of String Theory, and the Search for Unity in Physical Law (Woit)

 

#6 A Brief History of Time (Hawking)

 

#9 The Road to Reality (Penrose)

 

#28 Warped Passages: Unravelling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions (Randall)

 

#35 The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design (Susskind)

 

#38 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension (Kaku)

 

================

 

TwP is a new kind of physics popular writing IMO. I am impressed that it has gotten a large readership so quickly----we must have been ready for some string debunking, or some frank honesty about past 20-years research in fundamental physics theory.

We the market, I mean:-)

 

I first noticed TwP at #1 on the amazon list on Wednesday 30 August.

 

Now it is still there after about 2 weeks-----12 September. This is an incredible and completely unexpected run for a book of this sort. I am still trying to understand what it means and explain to myself what is it about the book.

 

One thing the book does do, which is special, is it GIVES US THE FIRST LOOK INTO THE POST-STRING physics world.

 

This is Part III Beyond String Theory

pages 203-260

[Martin]

As of 14 September 12:40 PM pacific, the amazon general physics bestseller list http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

#1 The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next (Smolin)

 

#2 Not Even Wrong: the Failure of String Theory, and the Search for Unity in Physical Law (Woit)

 

#3 The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (Greene)

 

#8 A Briefer History of Time (Hawking)

 

#26 The Road to Reality (Penrose)

 

#28 The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design (Susskind)

 

#52 Warped Passages: Unravelling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions (Randall)

 

#60 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension (Kaku)

 

================

 

It has been over two weeks now. I think there is a reason the book has been doing so well.

 

I first noticed TwP at #1 on the amazon list on Wednesday 30 August.

...

...

One thing the book does do, which is special, is it GIVES US THE FIRST LOOK INTO THE POST-STRING physics world.

 

This is Part III Beyond String Theory

pages 203-260

[Locrian]

You just said that the predictions were wrong. They didn't go away. So ST is still making predictions now[/i']... We still have vibrating strings/'branes, right?

 

I'm not sure I agree with this. The theory is significantly different than it was in the mid-80's, there are those who say it is no longer really a theory of strings, and the predictions of the past did seem to be swept under the rug as time went by. Of course, I guess its a fair question as to whether the word "prediciton" ever applied to anything that came out of the field. Maybe "suggested" is more appropriate?

 

Just relax.

 

[Locrian]

String theory has not been pursued in any "odder" fashion than other theories in physics. Dirac used to write pretty equations and even went so far as to say that the accuracy of the theory should be judged by the beauty of the equations.

 

I would agree with Luke that ST is certainly being pursued in a historically unusual fashion. Dirac may have liked pretty equations, but his contribution to physics was very much dependant on experimentation that had been done. Quantum mechanics was a science born of experimental data that conflicted with current theories. There is no such example for string theory.

 

General relativity might be one good example of a broad theory being produced before experimental data (of course special relativity would not be). Of course it rested on a single, powerful principle, something that can't be said of string theory, but I agree with you that this demonstrates such a sequence is possible.

 

This still leaves string theory in a historically unusual position. There is no expeirmental data that demands a theory of quantum gravity. There isn't even absolute evidence that such a regime where a theory of quantum gravity is needed even exists, and if it does, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which the theory would be useful.

 

Of course most physicists would prefer to sit around playing with pretty equations, but let's not forget this urge can work both ways. When Pauli started working on the physics of solids he quickly stopped and warned his students against studying the "physics of dirt." I wonder what those students thought when Bardeen later went on to earn two Nobel prizes studying just such physics.

[Locrian]

My copy of TwP arrived! I have read much of the book.

 

Well how about an update!

 

I would like your opinion on whether I would find this book interesting. I have not thought much of string theory since I looked into it in 2001. Since I don't need any convincing, would the book contain enough new information that I would enjoy it?

 

Thanks in advance

[Martin]

would the book contain enough new information that I would enjoy it?

 

Yes.

 

Without reservation.

 

===edit===

I started a "Bookclub" thread to talk about the book with other readers. Hope you will join in.

the table of contents shows what the book covers. It is at website----click on "contents" in the top-bar menu

http://www.thetroublewithphysics.com/

[Martin]

Last update was two days ago

As of 14 September 12:40 PM pacific, the amazon general physics bestseller list http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

#1 The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next (Smolin)

 

#2 Not Even Wrong: the Failure of String Theory, and the Search for Unity in Physical Law (Woit)

 

#3 The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (Greene)

 

#8 A Briefer History of Time (Hawking)

 

#26 The Road to Reality (Penrose)

 

#28 The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design (Susskind)

 

#52 Warped Passages: Unravelling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions (Randall)

 

#60 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension (Kaku)

 

 

Today the standings are much the same. Here I give the bestseller rank in the general physics category and also the storewide sales rank in books of all categories. It gives an idea of BY HOW MUCH #1 is ahead of #2, and so on.

 

As of Saturday 16 September at 10:15 AM pacific

 

#1 The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next (Smolin)---238

 

#2 Not Even Wrong: the Failure of String Theory, and the Search for Unity in Physical Law (Woit)---902

 

#3 The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (Greene)---1268

 

#4 Physics for Dummies---1336

 

#5 The Road to Reality (Penrose)---1490

 

#12 A Brief History of Time (Hawking)

 

#13 A Briefer History of Time (Hawking)

 

#15 Warped Passages: Unravelling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions (Randall)

 

#16 The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design (Susskind)

 

#50 Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension (Kaku)

 

the point of the OVERALL sales rank is that you can see that Elegant Universe and Physics for Dummies are CLOSE so they could easily swap places #3 and #4 in the next few days. In fact I think yesterday they were in reverse order for a while----with Physics for Dummies ahead of Greene.

Right now they are less than 100 apart in overall rank.

 

it is like a measure of distance.

 

And the #1 and #2 books are NOT close together like that---they are currently some 600 or 700 apart. So they are NOT likely to swap places any time soon like in the next few days. It could happen, but it is more of a lead.

[Martin]

Update to see how the standings have changed over the past 3 days

the small number before the title is the book's standing in the amazon general physics bestseller list.

The large number with the # sign is the storewide OVERALL sales rank among books in all categories.

As of Saturday 16 September at 10:15 AM pacific

 

1. The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory' date=' the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next (Smolin)---#238

 

2. Not Even Wrong: the Failure of String Theory, and the Search for Unity in Physical Law (Woit)---#902

 

3. The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (Greene)---#1268

 

4. Physics for Dummies---#1336

 

5. The Road to Reality (Penrose)---#1490

 

6. A Brief History of Time (Hawking)

 

...

...

...[/quote']

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

As of 6:10 PM Monday 18 September

 

1. The Trouble With Physics---#232

 

2. Not Even Wrong: the Failure of String Theory, and the Search for Unity in Physical Law (Woit)---#865

 

3. Physics for Dummies---#1552

 

4. God's Universe (Owen Gingerich)----#1737

 

5. The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory (Brian Greene)---#1743

 

6. A Brief History of Time----#2634

 

 

 

15. The Road to Reality (Penrose)---#3901

 

26. The Cosmic Landscape: String Theory and the Illusion of Intelligent Design (Susskind)---#5837

 

20. Warped Passages: Unravelling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions (Randall)---#5910

 

 

 

47. Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension (Kaku)---#10,807

[Martin]

Interesting race going on. Owen Gingerich God's Universe has broken away from a bunch of other "Universe" books and is moving up to challenge Smolin and Woit's books at 1st and 2nd place on the general physics bestseller list.

 

these links give the books' overall amazon sales rank

 

Smolin Trouble with Physics:

http://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Physics-String-Theory-Science/dp/0618551050/ref=pd_ts_b_1/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

Woit Not Even Wrong:

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Even-Wrong-Failure-Physical/dp/0465092756/ref=pd_ts_b_2/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

Owen Gingerich God's Universe:

http://www.amazon.com/God-s-Universe-Owen-Gingerich/dp/0674023706/ref=pd_ts_b_3/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

Physics for Dummies:

http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Dummies-Math-Science/dp/0764554336/ref=pd_ts_b_3/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

 

For a while, "God's Universe" was duking it out with "Physics for Dummies" but it now seems to have overcome that contender.

 

At present there is nothing between Owen Gingerich and the top except Woit and Smolin.

 

Doubtless some will see this as a contest between straight physics and whoopie physics.

 

Some other "Universe" books are:

http://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Universe-Michael-Talbot/dp/0060922583/ref=pd_ts_b_4/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

http://www.amazon.com/Elegant-Universe-Superstrings-Dimensions-Ultimate/dp/0375708111/ref=pd_ts_b_3/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

and the related Hawking

http://www.amazon.com/Briefer-History-Time-Stephen-Hawking/dp/0553804367/ref=pd_ts_b_7/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

To find out the sales rank of any of these, you click on the link and scroll down to Product Details

 

for example current sales rank for the top 7 titles on the general physics bestseller list are

1.TwF #226

2. NEW #849

3. God's U #1513

4. PfD #1750

5. Holo U #2082

6. Elegant U #2226

7. Briefer #2836

 

for a convenient visual summary of the situation there is the gen phys bestseller list itself

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

====================

UPDATE

God's Universe and Physics for Dummies are still duking it out. Just in the past hour, Physics for Dummies has unexpectedly pulled ahead and is now leading God's Universe!

 

Also Brian Greene and Stephen Hawking have, in the past hour, SUNK STILL FURTHER! Brian Green Elegant Universe has slid to an unprecedented low (in my experience) and been replaced by a "Cracking the AP Physics" book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Physics-Exams-2006-2007-College/dp/0375765409/ref=pd_ts_b_6/103-6432418-0205431?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

An historical shift in the market could be underway

here is the new gen phys bestseller lineup as of 5:15 PM pacific time:

1.TwF #215

2. NEW #1063

3. Physics for Dummies #1719

4. God's U #1749

5. Holo U #2082

6. Cracking AP Physics #2415

7. Elegant U #2825

...

...

13. Briefer #3718

[Martin]

Elegant Universe is back up there this morning!

 

But Physics for Dummies is making an even stronger showing and is actually challenging Peter Woit's book for the #2 place.

 

God's Universe has slipped considerably and is now down there with Stephen Hawking around the #6 and #7 spot.

 

as of Wednesday 20 September at 8:25 AM

 

1. TwP #285

 

2. NEW #806

 

3. Physics for Dummies #841

 

4. Elegant Universe #1607

 

5. E = mc²: a Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation #1652

 

6. God's Universe #2291

 

7. Cracking the AP Physics B and C Exams #2354

 

8. Brief History of Time #2389

 

these are the top 8 titles on the amazon general physics bestseller list.

the number labeled # after the title is the amazon sales rank in all categories (not just physics)

 

Smolin's The Trouble with Physics has been #1 on the gen phys bestseller list whenever I've looked since 30 September, which was just 3 weeks ago.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

=============EDIT==============

 

Hi MacSwell, since I can still edit I will save a post and reply here. I am a long way from figuring out the mass bookmarket! I just began to watch these amazon lists for the first time.

 

When I first started watching, a few days prior to 30 August, it was always Brian Greene Elegant at the top of the list.

 

Elegant is a classic and is in the paperback part of its trajectory so it is a little uneven to compare with recent hardcover books.

It has the disadvantage of presumed saturation since it has been out a long long time, but the style and manner give it enduring appeal.

 

then, if you ignore textbooks, which people were buying lots of the first week of September, the picture was typically

#1 TwP

#2 Elegant

 

and that went along for a few days and then it began to be typically

 

#1 TwP

#2 NEW

#3 Elegant

 

(again leaving out textbooks and study aids which were hot as the semester started)

 

Until quite recently I did not see any other title besides Elegant as a threat to TwP and NEW standing, so I was expecting TwP to simply saturate (because presumed more limited market of people interested in the straight story without poetic analogies and speculation) and for Elegant to return to its usual #1 spot.

 

this hasn't happened so far, but it could. what surprises me is that over the past 3 weeks Elegant and Brief History (while bobbing up and down quite a bit) have tended to sink-----as if even the PAPERBACK market for them is saturating. Since they have been such great favorites this is quite surprising to me, and it may also be a temporary illusion.

[J.C.MacSwell]

I Wonder if TWP is actually helping Elegant sales?

[bascule]

Smolin's The Trouble with Physics has been #1 on the gen phys bestseller list whenever I've looked since 30 September, which was just 3 weeks ago.

 

It's been #1 for the entire Physics category as well

[Royston]

I'm asking my local Borders bookshop to order a copy tomorrow, unless of course they already have it...I'm thoroughly looking forward to reading it, especially as I have a break from study in October, which limits my time for leisurely reading.

 

I'm also interested in discussing the content in the 'book club' that Martin was talking about, hopefully I won't be too late to join the discussion.

[Martin]

Smolin's book "The Trouble with Physics, the Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next" has been #1 on amazon gen phys bestseller list for about 3 weeks (since 30 August).

For a lot of that time Woit's book "Not Even Wrong" has been #2

 

but today Woit's book slid

displaced by a popular study aid "Physics for Dummies" and a physics+history book now out in paperback "E = mc2, the Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation"

 

as of 2:10 PM Wednesday

 

1. TwP #302

2. Physics for Dummies #877

3. E=mc² #1281

4. Not Even Wrong #1300

5. Elegant Universe #1712

6. the Halliday Resnick Walker college physics text (real classic!) #1729

7. Brief History of Time #1997

8. Cracking AP Physics... #2084

 

I wonder if Not Even Wrong will ever make it back up to the #2 spot. No idea. sort of think not. It debunks string fad in research---anthropic Landscape especially---but, unlike TwP, it does not offer a clear picture of the non-string approaches to unification that are being actively researched.

 

I think an important factor in the success of TwP is the "What Comes Next" in the title, and the fact that the book really does devote an entire section to post-string unification research ("Section III, Beyond String Theory"), given that it is by someone who has done both string research (over a dozen papers) and has been a central figure in several types of non-string QG.

This is something which Peter Woit's book cannot offer to such an extent. It is not as positive.

 

I also have the impression that Brian Greene's book "Elegant Universe" is sliding (maybe for the first time in it's epic blockbuster history ) which is no big deal: EU must have sold million of copies since its appearance in 1999.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

[Martin]

BTW Smolin's book is absolutely great, it is inspiring to read

a real page-turner

 

it doesnt poop out halfway thru, like a lot of books, it gets better and better

of course this is just IMHO

you may react completely different from me

 

I was surprised by how much he packed into that book, even though I know Smolin's research and survey articles and essays and stuff---it went beyond what I was expecting.

[Martin]

I'm asking my local Borders bookshop to order a copy tomorro...

 

Great! I'm up for discussing the book anytime anyone shows up who has read a substantial chunk and wants to talk.

 

i don't know how other "bookclubs" work, but since i got addicted to online information I often read books in a fragmentary way. Like a 60 page section at a time, whatever grabs me, rather than straight down from beginning to end.

 

So if you like some part of it or want to talk, just give me a definite page reference so we know what we are talking about.

Dont have to wait til everybody has read the whole thing

[Martin]

It's been #1 for the entire Physics category as well

 

 

Yeah, I saw that!

[Martin]

 

as of 2:10 PM Wednesday

 

1. TwP #302

2. Physics for Dummies #877

3. E=mc² #1281

4. Not Even Wrong #1300

5. Elegant Universe #1712

6. the Halliday Resnick Walker college physics text (real classic!) #1729

7. Brief History of Time #1997

8. Cracking AP Physics... #2084

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/14560/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/102-4540543-7840144

 

as of 8:20 AM today

 

1. TwP #296

2. Physics for Dummies #807

3. Not Even Wrong #1161

4. Elegant Universe #1231

5. E=mc² #1899

6. Brief History of Time #2113

7. God's Universe #2273

 

 

"E=mc², the Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation"

cute, but no cigar

Woit's book, Not Even Wrong, regained 3rd place

Halliday's college physics text apparently just had a brief spurt

[Martin]

bascule, Snail, anybody interested in what people read, the mind of the public and so on.

 

do you know anything about Owen Gingerich? I am very interested that what seems like SERIOUS THEISTIC cosmology is getting read----I havent every seen this book God's Universe but that's what i take it to be.

 

I have a feeling that some kind of minor intellectual revolution (some small Palace Coup of the Mind) is in progress.

 

Maybe you dont see it this way, or don't think this is significant:

 

as of 1:10 PM pacific Thursday 21 September

GOD'S UNIVERSE WAS WITHIN AN INCH OF 2ND PLACE

the numbers after # are overall amazon sales rank

 

1. TWP #345

2. Physics for Dummies #881

3. God's Universe # 978

4. Not Even Wrong #1157

5. Elegant Universe # 1233

6. E=mc2 #1802

7. Brief History #2153

 

this is turf that used to be dominated by Stephen Hawking and Brian Greene and Roger Penrose. At least I thought it was. (and there were always textbooks and study aids---I'll bet that Physics for Dummies is actually a very well-written book---but ignoring those)

 

now it looks like some new kids on the block: Smolin, Woit and Owen Gingerich (??)

==============

 

my point is that sales rank 881 and 978 are very close. a hundred amazon steps is not a lot.

God's universe, which wasnt even in the top 10 when I started watching this list, is only a hiccup away from the #2 spot.

Should I be impressed? I am, whether or not.

[Royston]

bascule, Snail, anybody interested in what people read, the mind of the public and so on.

 

do you know anything about Owen Gingerich? I am very interested that what seems like SERIOUS THEISTIC cosmology is getting read----I havent every seen this book God's Universe but that's what i take it to be.

 

I have a feeling that some kind of minor intellectual revolution (some small Palace Coup of the Mind) is in progress.

 

Maybe you dont see it this way, or don't think this is significant:

 

Well I'm glad there is a 'serious' theistic approach being published, I personally think it's needed...I like to keep an open mind on such things, so I would be interested in reading this, he certainly has the credentials. Here's a quote from Harvard University Press...

 

[i']Owen Gingerich believes in a universe of intention and purpose. We can at least conjecture that we are part of that purpose and have just enough freedom that conscience and responsibility may be part of the mix. They may even be the reason that pain and suffering are present in the world. The universe might actually be comprehensible.[/i]

 

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/GINGOD.html

 

However, as to why the books popular...I'd be more inclined to say it fits with a popular view, especially with a title 'God's Universe.' I'm guessing the majority of sales are in America ? I can't really judge until I've read it, if there is a compelling argument, and all the science is there, perhaps it's worth a read to consider Gingerich's argument, and also it would probably attract a readership that wouldn't normally be interested in cosmology.

 

Slightly dodgy ground...maybe, guess there's only one way to find out.

[Martin]

Well I'm glad there is a 'serious' theistic approach being published, I personally think it's needed...I like to keep an open mind on such things, so I would be interested in reading this, ..., guess there's only one way to find out.

 

brave soul, Snail

you are the guinea pig on this one, better you than me

I would not buy it with a ten foot pole----open mind sounds commendable but not in this case for me!

 

what I like about what I hear of Gingerich is that he could be kind of Pied Piper to lead Fundies out of denial. There are all these people that feel they have to deny modern cosmology because it isnt godly enough for them, so they are in denial and it can be boring.

but someone like Gingerich could put a nice SPIN on the big bang story and then they could accept it and move on.

 

So God's Universe could be a wonderful book for bringing fundies up to speed on cosmology. Behold my superficial guesswork snap reaction:-)

 

However if you or anyone reads it and can actually report on what the real story is, it would be a definite plus!

[Royston]

brave soul, Snail

 

In all honesty, I doubt I'd waste my time reading it...I'm just interested in how such an argument is approached, what method he uses et.c (and taking it with a vat of salt.) I've said many a time on here, that science and God are not to be mixed, but if there is some new way of looking at this idea, that hasn't been proposed before...then I can't see the harm in atleast considering it, but that's as far as it goes.

 

By the way, I'm nearly half way through 3 roads to Quantum Gravity...I couldn't put it down last night, it rocks quite frankly, IMO.

[Martin]

..

.. nearly half way through 3 roads to Quantum Gravity...I couldn't put it down last night, it rocks quite frankly, IMO.

 

That's good news!

[J.C.MacSwell]

That's good news!

 

I have that one but haven't read it. Are any of the roads extra dimensional or is that too stringy?