National ID Card

[Sisyphus]

This is inspired by that libertarian quiz from the other thread, and pertains specifically to the United States.

 

Um, what's the problem with a national ID card? What exactly are the staunch opponents to such a plan (and apparently there are some) afraid of?

[doG]

http://www.lp.org/article_142.shtml

[Sisyphus]

[url']http://www.lp.org/article_142.shtml[/url]

 

That doesn't really answer my question.

[AzurePhoenix]

the concept of national identification of a nation's citizens makes perfect sense, hell, I endorse a national fingerprint and dna-sample database. Knowing everyone's general whereabouts in the event they need to be reached for whatever reason, be able to find first-time criminal offenders from forensic samples that would otherwise mean nothing until he was caught doing something else and got his prints or whatever put inthe current criminal database, whatever, it all just seems reasonable and downright responsible. Certainly nothing to get into a tizzy over.

 

Alot of what I hear against national idenitfication is simply that many people have an almost religious jealousy of their "privacy." I'm ssure there are other reasons, but that's the one I hear them scream about.

[doG]

Why isn't my state issued driver's license good enough to be an ID card recognized nationally? As a citizen I shouldn't need any more documents than I have now.

[Sisyphus]

Why isn't my state issued driver's license good enough to be an ID card recognized nationally? As a citizen I shouldn't need any more documents than I have now.

 

Because state driver's licences vary more than is convenient. Of course, if you have no problem with the driver's license, what's wrong with the national ID? Is it just superstitious fear of the big bad federal government?

 

And incidentally, you wouldn't have any more documents. As I understand it, a national ID would serve as a driver's license.

[YT2095]

and pertains specifically to the United States.

 

no it doesn`t, we have the same debate idea here too in the UK.

 

and yes I`m all for it 100%!

[Royston]

I fail to see much difference between the ID card, and a passport...how long will it be until ID cards are faked. I can't see what difference it will make, there's plenty of ways of getting into a country, and there's plenty of ways of becoming part of the society.

 

There's been several uncoverings of false documents being used just a few miles from where I live, being handed out at language schools. I don't see why I should fork out more money, just to prove who I am...the problem should be tackled at the source.

[Sisyphus]

Presumably, if the ID is national and something one carries most of the time (unlike a passport, for instance), then it would be at least as hard to fake as it would be to counterfeit currency.

[doG]

And incidentally, you wouldn't[/i'] have any more documents. As I understand it, a national ID would serve as a driver's license.

That's news to me, can you support that claim? Would it comply with the varied drivers laws of all the states? Would one study the driver's manuals for all 50 states to prepare for the test to get one? Would a test be required at all to get one?

 

I support state sovereignity and less federal regulation but that's just a personal preference so yes, I oppose federalism.

[Royston]

Presumably, if the ID is national and something one carries most of the time (unlike a passport, for instance), then it would be at least as hard to fake as it would be to counterfeit currency.

 

I'm more concerned as to the reasons why they're implementing ID cards. Plus, I think they should be free.

[Sisyphus]

Would one study the driver's manuals for all 50 states to prepare for the test to get one? Would a test be required at all to get one?

 

I don't see why it couldn't include something like "legal driver - New York," or whatnot. Just makes sense, since most of the info would be in common, anyway.

[YT2095]

I'm more concerned as to the reasons why they're implementing ID cards. Plus, I think they should be free.

 

well yeah, there IS that too, but it`s also another subject again entirely.

as for the Free bit, if enough ppl refuse to pay the 38 quid for one, and the .Gov really want each to have one, they will be free eventualy

[doG]

I don't see why it couldn't include something like "legal driver - New York," or whatnot. Just makes sense, since most of the info would be in common, anyway.

It could but why should it? If it's just an ID card for ID only then there shouldn't be any test or price associated with it. That being the case though, state licenses should be acceptable ID with no need for a national ID.

 

As it is the current proposal actually makes state issued licenses your national ID by requiring each state to comply with federal requirements for issueing licenses. There would be no federeal agency issuing federal ID cards. If your state didn't happen to meet those federal requirements then your license wiould not be valid identification to anyone but your own state. You could suddenly need to fly to another state for a sick relative or a death and find that your license is not recognized by the TSA at your own local airport. This propasl is another band aid approach to cover a symptom instead of finding a cure.

[gcol]

I'm more concerned as to the reasons why they're implementing ID cards. Plus, I think they should be free.

Now you're tuning in. Some 60million in the U.K, for example, at £50 a go, that makes a nice little earner. A few thousand more govt. employees all paying taxes, reduction of unemployment, slush funds to the security services, then after a few years privatise it and stuff the profit made with our money into their pockets, etc. etc......

 

But now you know the game, you will have to be "disappeared".

 

P.S. From what age will this start? At birth, same as a birth certificate?

 

Another thought.... I invite you all to carefully consider how many pieces of identifiable documentation all accessible by the government you already have.

 

If all this info could only be collated and configured by "joined up" computing

perhaps under the aegis of something like Bascule's Singularity, I might even consider converting

[Sisyphus]

What I had in mind was a generic ID that could also act in place of a state driver's licence with something as simple as an added line or "state specific" box or something, not that you would need to be a legal driver to get one. Having state IDs that comply with a national standard would amount to the same thing and probably be easier, since most people already have driver's licenses.

 

I'm not sure I really understand your scenario. Why wouldn't the states comply?

[Royston]

well yeah, there IS that too, but it`s also another subject again entirely.

 

Not really...

 

Um, what's the problem with a national ID card? What exactly are the staunch opponents to such a plan (and apparently there are some) afraid of?

 

It's not so much of being afraid, it's a pointless scheme. If you're referring to lack of privacy, and perhaps 'big brother' et.c, that's already there, and it's a pretty weak argument, so why bother raising it. I think the whole thing is ridiculous, it's a complete waste of money, and has no power of stopping anything national id cards are trying to stop.

 

as for the Free bit, if enough ppl refuse to pay the 38 quid for one, and the .Gov really want each to have one, they will be free eventualy[/b']

 

I know, I'm just a bit skint at the moment.

[gcol]

I'm not sure I really understand your scenario. Why wouldn't the states comply?

 

If that was to me, Rocky old chap, then there is a double misunderstanding. If not, ignore.

[doG]

I'm not sure I really understand your scenario. Why wouldn't the states comply?

The federal government can not directly mandate the states to do anything a particular way. States are run by the people of the State and they do not always agree with federal requirements for one reason or another. The bill that has been voted on in the Senate does not use the card as you envision it. It uses your state ID/license pending your state's compliance with federal guidelines...

[Royston]

Now you're tuning in. Some 60million in the U.K' date=' for example, at £50 a go, that makes a nice little earner. A few thousand more govt. employees all paying taxes, reduction of unemployment, slush funds to the security services, then after a few years privatise it and stuff the profit made with our money into their pockets, etc. etc......[/quote']

 

I would agree, but the cost of making the cards is actually pretty high. The main problem is the working class are the majority, and why should they pay money to prove themselves against an incredibly small minority. Added to that, it won't stop the small minority of extremists making their way into the country, it solves absolutely nothing.

 

P.S. From what age will this start? At birth, same as a birth certificate?

 

I'd like to add, that the few jobs I applied for after travelling, was to memorize a few numbers to fill in the application form. The logistics involved to make this effective are huge.

 

Another thought.... I invite you all to carefully consider how many pieces of identifiable documentation all accessible by the government you already have.

 

None.

[Sisyphus]

 

None.

 

I don't understand. Are you an illegal immigrant or something?

[GutZ]

I can't help myself but this thread brought the image of the Government tagging people in the shoulder with mirco-chips, in a "crocodile hunter" fashion.

 

"Cranky, they're gettting away!"

 

I don't think National ID Cards are crossing the line, but like Snail says, pretty F'in useless from a security standpoint.

 

It would be sweet to have one card for everything here in Canada. Health Card/ Driver's Liecense/Sin Card/ETC. Something you can just swipe for information. It would make things slightly quicker and more organized.

[Royston]

I don't understand. Are you an illegal immigrant or something?

 

Of course not, but the information the government have, is as meaningful as owning a credit card. It can be easily changed, just as any other documentation. To implement the idea of an id card, would have to be so rigorous to be effective, that it's a completely pointless venture.

[ParanoiA]

This is a classic case of impacting the majority to stop the minority.

 

It's like QuikTrip here in Missouri. They have had an increase in gas runs so now, cash customers have to register their name, SSN#, address, - personal info - and QT gives them a gas ID card. So, when you want to pump your gas you have to swipe that ID card first, then they'll trust you and start the pump - you can pay when you're done. Or, you can avoid all of that and use a credit card.

 

This kind of thing impacts the majority of customers, just so QT can keep an incredibly small fraction of people from ripping them off. If there weren't credit cards, people would be pissed.

 

This is the same kind of thing. It causes hassle for all of us, just to stop a minority of people getting away with something and from what I understand it won't even work.

 

Not to mention all of the government invasion. There is already so much privacy violation going on that nobody cares anymore. Status quo is not good in this area. You think it's harmless now. Think ahead. Think beyond your lifetime or your children's lifetimes. Think about incrementalism and how laws like this snowball. Think about the Patriot Act. It's the same kind of civil liberty violation.

[GutZ]

This is a classic case of impacting the majority to stop the minority.

 

It's like QuikTrip here in Missouri. They have had an increase in gas runs so now...

 

This kind of thing impacts the majority of customers' date=' just so QT can keep an incredibly small fraction of people from ripping them off. If there weren't credit cards, people would be pissed.

[/quote']

 

Canada has the same problem, so in order to faciliate the process of pre-paided gas they make the gas attendants pay for the stolen gas if they don't get the plates. Well that's my theory anyway. It's pretty weak to make the attendant responsible for it. Great system eh?