misogynistic song? do you consider it such?

[Martin]

should misogynist speech be suppressed at a critical forum?

 

if so, what is it? how does one decide if speech is misogynist?

 

[CONTENT WARNING: don't read this thread if you object to presenting, for critical discussion, speech which is possibly misogynist---or more generally, prejudicial to a genetic type of person]

 

For example, consider two verses of a song by Donne

 

http://www.npg.org.uk/live/prjohndonnepoetry.asp

 

If thou be'est born to strange sights,

Things invisible to see,

Ride ten thousand days and nights,

Till age snow white hairs on thee,

Thou, when thou return'st wilt tell me

All strange wonders that befell thee,

And swear

Nowhere

Lives a woman true, and fair.

 

If thou find'st one, let me know,

Such a pilgrimage were sweet,

Yet do not, I would not go,

Though at next door we might meet,

Though she were true, when you met her,

And last, till you write your letter,

Yet she

Will be

False, ere I come, to two, or three.

 

=====================

this asserts essential falsity of all women except those whose foul looks confine them to unwelcome virtue:

 

So if your special talent is to witness rare events, it says, then you can search all your life for a beautiful true woman, and never find one.

 

And if you actually think you have found one, please let me know so I can go witness this strange miracle!

 

But on second thought, don't. Because before I got there she would doubtless have taken two or three lovers---perhaps, as Callipygous has recounted, at the same time. So much for female chastity.

 

=====================

for background here is a chronology of Donne's life

http://www.npg.org.uk/live/prjohndonnechrono.asp

he was born in 1572

 

the facts of his life do not suggest a misogynist inclination, rather IMHO the opposite.

 

however the quoted verses of his song could be considered defamatory to a class of persons (in which membership is ordinarily not by choice)

=====================

 

do you have other examples of misogynist song, which (perhaps by being more outspoken) could serve to clarify the issue of suppressing or not suppressing misogynist speech.

[gcol]

Martin, I think you may have a hidden agenda!

Trying to show that not only religion can be controversial and lead to discord.

But how about this:

 

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.Proverbs (ch. XXXI, v. 10).

 

Ah, such words of wisdom from the old-time prophets

 

Not a song, but possibly a seminal source of many mysogynistic lyrics. Blame religion again, or use it to justify misogyny?

[Sayonara]

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.Proverbs (ch. XXXI, v. 10).

 

Isn't this essentially saying that a virtuous woman is highly prized, with the inference being that they are rare?

[Mokele]

Honestly, the tone of the poem seemed more like a joke to me, and jokes can get by with a lot more, even if they're openly racist, misogynistic, etc, simply because we laugh in spite of ourselves (the 'South Park' "Oh, that's so wrong but still so funny!" reaction).

 

Other songs/media with a major misogynistic streak that's not ameliorated by humor? How about every gangsta rap song in the past 20 years?

 

As for dealing with it, it depends on the context. If it persistently derails threads and causes fights/flamewars, it should be disallowed simply to keep the forums running. If it's part of legitimate discussions, it should be kept. The important thing is to keep the forums operational.

 

Mokele

[gcol]

Isn't this essentially saying that a virtuous woman is highly prized, with the inference being that they are rare?

Exactly! As rare as rocking horse manure, and if found, both should be pickled in aspic for the wonderment of future generations.

 

A woman of true virtue being so rare, and 99.99999% of ordinary males being lumbered with the other sort, mysogyny is perhaps the natural state.

 

The dirth of virtuous women could drive a man to miscegenation. Now there is an association of ideas. Is the one enough to make a man consider the other?

[Mokele]

Exactly! As rare as rocking horse manure, and if found, both should be pickled in aspic for the wonderment of future generations. A woman of true virtue being so rare, and 99.99999% of ordinary males being lumbered with the other sort, mysogyny is perhaps the natural state.

 

And your actual empirical support for this is what, exactly?

 

The actual fact is that a higher percentage of *men* cheat, and that while infidelity is becoming more common and the gap closing, there is still a substantial portion of relationships that remain faithful.

 

So should we go around stating that men can't be trusted, and are less trustworthy than women? Because that's what the facts say.

 

Mokele

[gcol]

So should we go around stating that men can't be trusted, and are less trustworthy than women? Because that's what the facts say.

Mokele

 

Yes, perhaps we should, but the topic is not misandry (the opposite of mysogyny). I would not dare deviate from the purity of the thread and risk penalty points.

 

And your actual empirical support for this is what, exactly?

 

It must be true, the bible says so!

 

Do I really need such support for what is an OTT joke in a lighthearted thread in a mere discussion forum? Well, sackcloth and ashes for me, then:-)

[Dak]

Yes, perhaps we should, but the topic is not misandry (the opposite of mysogyny).

 

thanks, i've allways wondered what the antonym of mysogony was. i've just been using feminism.

 

do you have other examples of misogynist song, which (perhaps by being more outspoken) could serve to clarify the issue of suppressing or not suppressing misogynist speech.

 

most rap afaict (got me hoes/wiki wiki wah/ shut up hoes/ wikkety wikkety woo/ gonna shoot me sum hoes)

 

i dont really think that the songe you quoted was masogonistic btw.

 

So should we go around stating that men can't be trusted, and are less trustworthy than women? Because that's what the facts say.

 

i feel that was rhetoric, but i think it should stand as a valid question.

 

should we indeed? after all, if they're the facts, then they're the facts. surely it's not misandry if its true?