Repeat offenders in relationships [split]

[ecoli]

What the hell has happened to the men in this forum? You all are acting like weiners.

 

Reality check...

 

When a woman takes me back after cheating on her, early in the relationship no less, then I know I can cheat on her again and she very likely will not leave me.

 

That's not true at all! Just because somebody does something once doesn't mean they'll do it again. I'm just saying that there is room for error, and we should forgive that. I think that repeated "offenses" are a different matter, however. But repetition is NOT inevitable.

 

 

And women are the same way. You're not laying down the law on her, or "how it's going to be" - she already knows you're going to do that. And she'll let you. And she'll cheat on you again someday, sooner or later, and let you "lay down the law of how it's going to be" again...and again..and again.

And, if that happens, than you know she's not interested in an exclusive relationship with you. But, if that happens only once, that's not necesarily the case.

 

You all are acting like there's a relationship to salvage. There are people who cheat and people who don't. And regardless of the movies, they very rarely ever change.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't believe people are as black and white as you make them out to be.

[ParanoiA]

That's not true at all! Just because somebody does something once doesn't mean they'll do it again. I'm just saying that there is room for error, and we should forgive that. I think that repeated "offenses" are a different matter, however. But repetition is NOT inevitable.

 

You sound very young and inexperienced. That's what I would have said in my late teens, early twenties - before I knew better.

 

Your repeated offenses argument would be at least tolerable except usually there are a couple of children and financial tangles before these repeated offenses show up. As a grown up, you have to have more backbone and foresight than that. You owe it to society and your offspring to make better decisions than that. If nothing else, engage your logical senses and do the math. It's not worth the chance.

 

I realize in the high school and college world - where everyone knows everything yet has experienced nothing - that "repetition is NOT inevitable". However, when you get to be a grown up you figure out that it practically is inevitable. No one changes. They just act like it, or change the mask. But, they're still the same. It's very rare that someone actually changes.

[ecoli]

You sound very young and inexperienced. That's what I would have said in my late teens, early twenties - before I knew better.

 

Your repeated offenses argument would be at least tolerable except usually there are a couple of children and financial tangles before these repeated offenses show up. As a grown up, you have to have more backbone and foresight than that. You owe it to society and your offspring to make better decisions than that. If nothing else, engage your logical senses and do the math. It's not worth the chance.

 

 

Your argument is voided by the fact that Callipygous isn't married to this person and doesn't have any children with them (at least that is what I think is true).

 

Obviously, if they were married my advice would be different. But, the expectations of a dating couple can't be said to be the same as a married one.

 

I realize in the high school and college world - where everyone knows everything yet has experienced nothing - that "repetition is NOT inevitable". However, when you get to be a grown up you figure out that it practically is inevitable. No one changes. They just act like it, or change the mask. But, they're still the same. It's very rare that someone actually changes.

 

Again, these people are not married, and there are no laws regarding cheating between a dating couple. So, you can blame my observations on 'inexperiance' or perhaps to the fact that two unmarried people who may want to have a future together can't expect to be chained to each other in the early years. Maybe in your experiance, you've forgotten that?

 

By the way, you should read this: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_novelty.htm

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

No, no, ParanoiA is referring to the idea that if she cheats on you once, she's likely to do it again, but it'll probably be far too late for you to dump her by that point (i.e. kids and stuff).

[ecoli]

No, no, ParanoiA is referring to the idea that if she cheats on you once, she's likely to do it again,

 

So, he's saying that someone who cheats on their significant other once before they are married will do so again after they are married with children?

 

I don't buy it, especially since he's substituting his 'experiance' for actual proof.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

He's saying the "repeat offenders go out" rule wouldn't work, because the repeated offense usually occurs far later in the relationship.

[ParanoiA]

Your argument is voided by the fact that Callipygous isn't married to this person and doesn't have any children with them (at least that is what I think is true).

 

I know they're not married right now. I mean that these repeat offenses you speak of, aren't usually discovered until after they ARE married, or have children, financial entanglements...etc. Relationships can move fast, especially nowadays.

 

By the way, you should read this: [url']http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_novelty.htm[/url]

 

Spare me your emotionally motivated appeal to pre-defined supposed logical fallacies you seem to worship so much. Experience is experience. You can't shortcut it, and you shouldn't ignore those with it.

 

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but it's just the truth dude. You'll see...

[ParanoiA]

I don't buy it, especially since he's substituting his 'experiance' for actual proof.

 

Experience always seems questionable and stuffy until you have it. Then you realize why you were wrong for so long...

[ecoli]

Experience always seems questionable and stuffy until you have it. Then you realize why you were wrong for so long...

That doesn't change the fact that it's a logical fallacy to present something as fact, "Just because I'm older means it's true." is bunch of bs, sir.

 

He's saying the "repeat offenders go out" rule wouldn't work, because the repeated offense usually occurs far later in the relationship.

 

And so a cheater in a marital situation is more likely to be a repeated offender?

 

paranioA has not shown this to be true (statistics, please) and even if it is statistically true, that doesn't mean that Callipygous should use such a correlation to rule his decision. You can't really make statements like "Callipygous' girlfriend is going to cheat on him again" if you don't really know the person.

 

Spare me your emotionally motivated appeal to pre-defined supposed logical fallacies you seem to worship so much. Experience is experience. You can't shortcut it, and you shouldn't ignore those with it.

 

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but it's just the truth dude. You'll see...

 

are you denying that it is possible to have fallacious logic?

 

, btw - why don't you spare me the ad homs?

[ParanoiA]

That doesn't change the fact that it's a logical fallacy to present something as fact, "Just because I'm older means it's true." is bunch of bs, sir.

 

Older? I said experience, not just nor necessarily age. Because I have more experience means it has more "truthiness" than your opinion.

 

paranioA has not shown this to be true (statistics, please) and even if it is statistically true, that doesn't mean that Callipygous should use such a correlation to rule his decision. You can't really make statements like "Callipygous' girlfriend is going to cheat on him again" if you don't really know the person.

 

I don't have to know the person...I know people. Yes maybe his girlfriend will turn out to be a little peach of bride that remains true for all of eternity. Or, maybe I'll be right, yet again, and she'll have a more-some with a biker gang behind a bar one night after they've had 3 kids and he's in debt up to his eyeballs paying for all of her sh!t.

 

My money is on the latter as my "experience" says that's the better odds.

 

are you denying that it is possible to have fallacious logic?

 

No, I'm denying the reference to someone else's argument rather than you making your own. I appreciate your sourcing skills, but I have no interest in reading somebody's else's pithy take on using age and experience to shut up squirmy college kids.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

And so a cheater in a marital situation is more likely to be a repeated offender?

 

paranioA has not shown this to be true (statistics, please) and even if it is statistically true, that doesn't mean that Callipygous should use such a correlation to rule his decision. You can't really make statements like "Callipygous' girlfriend is going to cheat on him again" if you don't really know the person.

Argh.

 

What he meant is that it's not good enough to only dump a repeat offender. She may have only cheated on him once, but that isn't a behavioral trait that just goes away, and she may not cheat on him any more until far later. If you say, "I'll marry them even though they have bad trait x, because I think I can make them faithful to me (or something like that)," you're likely to be disappointed.

[ecoli]

Older? I said experience, not just nor necessarily age. Because I have more experience means it has more "truthiness" than your opinion.

True, you didn't say that. And truthiness is not related to experiance. This is simply wrong. I'm sorry you can't see that.

 

I don't have to know the person...I know people. Yes maybe his girlfriend will turn out to be a little peach of bride that remains true for all of eternity. Or, maybe I'll be right, yet again, and she'll have a more-some with a biker gang behind a bar one night after they've had 3 kids and he's in debt up to his eyeballs paying for all of her sh!t.

 

My money is on the latter as my "experience" says that's the better odds.

By your own admission though, you can't know for sure, and I don't set too much stock by probability. You don't have to gamble with a relationship.

 

No, I'm denying the reference to someone else's argument rather than you making your own. I appreciate your sourcing skills, but I have no interest in reading somebody's else's pithy take on using age and experience to shut up squirmy college kids.

 

Yet you have no problem quoting your virtually meaningless 'experiance' (I don't know you, and I shouldn't assume your experiances are worth anything), to act condescending towards me. A very nice position to take.

[ParanoiA]

People who really love each other and really want to be together don't let themselves get into situations where cheating is likely. Alcohol is just an enabler.

 

Damn right it's an enabler. I've found that alcohol will "enabler" to do just about anything you want.

 

Sorry...I just thought that was funny

[ecoli]

Argh.

 

What he meant is that it's not good enough to only dump a repeat offender. She may have only cheated on him once, but that isn't a behavioral trait that just goes away, and she may not cheat on him any more until far later. If you say, "I'll marry them even though they have bad trait x, because I think I can make them faithful to me (or something like that)," you're likely to be disappointed.

 

This argument makes sense Cap'n... but, I don't like the idea that because somebody cheated on you once at a drunken party means that they have trait 'x'. Maybe it's just a matter of circumstance that just happened once. How do you know that this is some sort of behavior trait that this specific person has.

 

Everybody has the potential to cheat, but just because made a mistake once means that they are likely to do it again?

 

Keep in mind that Callypigous girlfriend confessed it to him. Perhaps that means she felt remorse... maybe she has learned that cheating on her boyfriend makes her feel bad about herself, and therefore is LESS likely to repeat the experiance. Surely this is a valid possibility.

[ParanoiA]

Yet you have no problem quoting your virtually meaningless 'experiance' (I don't know you, and I shouldn't assume your experiances are worth anything), to act condescending towards me. A very nice position to take.

 

I didn't realize you were that fragile. You came across kind of snooty to me since I didn't have links of data sheets and a pie chart to support an opinion of cheaters and non-cheaters.

 

I didn't think I would be expected to take that much time out of my life just to post in the general discussion thread on some dude's girl problems.

[ecoli]

I didn't realize you were that fragile. You came across kind of snooty to me since I didn't have links of data sheets and a pie chart to support an opinion of cheaters and non-cheaters.

 

and you came across snooty to me, since you vilified my advice just because it didn't happen to match what you may have found in your experiances. Keep in mind that everyone has different experiances, and just because someone is younger and may have had less experiances doesn't mean that they are any less valid or applicable... you seemed condescending to me because you keeped missing this point.

 

edit: surely you can see why completely disregarding my advice, claiming something to the effect of "you are too inexperianced to know any better" would not make me receptive of what you are saying, yeah?

 

I didn't think I would be expected to take that much time out of my life just to post in the general discussion thread on some dude's girl problems.

Me neither

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Okay, time to split the thread.

[mike90]

Well cheating in my experience isn't generally a one time thing. In almost every relationship ive seen where someone cheats and is forgiven, they just end up waiting a while then cheating again, only in most cases they are more careful about getting caught.

 

In my opinion the cheating itself, no matter what the given reason for it, is generally just a symptom of greater character deficits somewhere else, that you just haven't seen yet. Not to say that everyone that cheats will do so again, but it certainly does seem to be the case often enough.

 

Ultimately it seems to be a lot of peoples way of signalling they are not ready for a serious relationship.

[padren]

When someone cheats its good to really re-evaluate...but that isn't the same as throwing the person out. In fact, anytime someone throws you an unpleasant curve ball you need to reconcile your senses with the data.

 

However, every situation is incredibly different. There are very few rules of thumb that can be match a situation based solely on what has been posted in a forum.

 

Anyone in that situation should go with their instincts in either direction since they are in the best position to understand the details of the matter.

 

I can respect ParanoiA's paranoia, but I don't think it can be universally applied by any means. It also depends on your goals: For me, success and failure are irrelevant - I don't consider someone successful in business better than someone who fails at it per se, it boils down to the chances you take that you can stand by. If I feel good about giving someone a second chance (I've had times going either way on that topic) I will do that and how they end up acting is largely irrelevant.

If taking a given chance makes you feel like you'd be a dupe - than don't. If not taking that chance makes you feel like you are acting out of simple fear of looking bad if it happens again - then take it. Life is about taking the chances that speak to who you are...regardless of what side of the issue they may fall on or the eventual outcomes.

 

(my 2 cents at least)

[woelen]

Cheating in the sense of having a n-some party in a drunken mental condition only can lead to one conclusion: dump her. Try to forgive, which will be hard enough, and try to live on, which also may be quite hard after such a bad experience, but don't continue with that girl. I think ParanoiA is right in this situation. Such a girl is not worth a durable relation and I would definitely not want to be married to a wife, who is acting like that.

 

The fact alone that she is going to a drunken party without her boy friend (to my opinion even going to a drunken party together is a bad thing) is a sufficient strong indication that it is time to quit.

 

Ecoli, with many things people can have more chances, but with this, it is: "the first failure will be the final failure".

[Dak]

i dunno. again, i think it comes down to how you find out.

 

if someone confesses, and you wouldn't have otherwize found out, i think they can be forgiven once.

[GutZ]

Damn right it's an enabler. I've found that alcohol will "enabler" to do just about anything you want.

 

Enabler if your weak-minded. The lack of self-control in society these days pisses me off so much.

 

Alcohol is not an excuse.

[ParanoiA]

i dunno. again, i think it comes down to how you find out.

 

if someone confesses, and you wouldn't have otherwize found out, i think they can be forgiven once.

 

Rhino and I discussed this yesterday and came to the same basic conclusion. If she confesses to an act like this, then we think it's very likely it's the only indiscretion. However, if you "discover" it, then we think it's highly likely this is just one incident among many many indiscretions.

 

Take that for what it's worth, but I will never, ever stay with a cheater. I need to know my mate is true to me - and by free will. I don't want to dedicate years of my life to someone who has to struggle just to stay faithful. That's a damn waiting to burst.

[ParanoiA]

Enabler if your weak-minded. The lack of self-control in society these days pisses me off so much.

 

Alcohol is not an excuse.

 

Actually it is an excuse. That's like saying a drunk that drives his car in a ditch can't use Alcohol as an excuse. So why is DUI / DWI such a big deal?

 

Alcohol screws up your sense of judgement, inhibitions, and etc. That's why I don't think alcohol should be our only legalized drug. Alcohol is the primary drug used by americans to get intoxicated. What a horribly stupid choice that is. Marijuana is a much better choice for intoxication. Your sense of judgement and your inhibitions are not nearly as effected, and there's no physical debilitation associated with it.

 

The "no excuse" lies in doing the drinking in the first place. There's no excuse for getting drunk irresponsibly. There was no thinking going on there at all. But hey, it's all part of growing up.

[GutZ]

Actually it is an excuse. That's like saying a drunk that drives his car in a ditch can't use Alcohol as an excuse. So why is DUI / DWI such a big deal?

 

Alcohol screws up your sense of judgement, inhibitions, and etc. That's why I don't think alcohol should be our only legalized drug. Alcohol is the primary drug used by americans to get intoxicated. What a horribly stupid choice that is. Marijuana is a much better choice for intoxication. Your sense of judgement and your inhibitions are not nearly as effected, and there's no physical debilitation associated with it.

 

The "no excuse" lies in doing the drinking in the first place. There's no excuse for getting drunk irresponsibly. There was no thinking going on there at all. But hey, it's all part of growing up.

 

Amen!

 

I guess I should of said, it was a poor excuse. I've done alot of things as a teenager but they were always in control. Some people don't care, they just do whatever they want untill something happens, thats when they use that excuse to justify their actions, and that to me is irrelavent.

 

Self-control in all respects needs to be fine-tuned in our societies/relationships/etc. Have all the freedom you want but make sure it doesnt affect others.