Parents responsible for kids with guns at school?

[john5746]

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/10/09/ap3077504.html

 

A boy took an AK-47 assault rifle to school with the intent to kill. He got this weapon from his parents. I think the parent(s) who owns the gun should go to jail. It is ridiculus to allow a child access to a gun and not know that they took it to school. No need to comment about gun control, everyone has discussed that to death. Shouldn't the parents have some responsibility if they own weapons?

[insane_alien]

An AK-47??? not really the preffered show and tell item.

 

i have no problem with people who let kids use guns as long as its under supervision by a responsible adult but letting a kid take a gun to school? thats just wrong. no kid should have a gun. they should definitely go to jail. especially since its an assault rifle ffs. jeezus.

[ParanoiA]

A boy took an AK-47 assault rifle to school with the intent to kill. He got this weapon from his parents. I think the parent(s) who owns the gun should go to jail. It is ridiculus to allow a child access to a gun and not know that they took it to school. No need to comment about gun control, everyone has discussed that to death. Shouldn't the parents have some responsibility if they own weapons?

 

Well that's only if they left it at the breakfast table for him to take to school, geez. He's not a 7 year old playing in his parent's closet stumbling across the loaded assault rifle daddy didn't lock up. This is a 13 year old, that ought to know better. And there's only so much locking up you can do with your guns. A dangerous teenager can probably get into just about any gun cabinet with enough time and will. I don't think you can pin that on mom and dad.

 

Should the parents be responsible if he took a knife from the kitchen to school and killed people with it?

[padren]

The question of negligence on the parent's part would involve the ease with which they gave him access to bring it to school. Parents hold a lot of responsibility but they are not foolproof protectors of their own assets.

 

A kid getting into a school with a gun is the responsibility of everyone charged with protecting the kids in that school, and extends to those who enable the one kid to threaten their lives.

 

Since the only way to ensure a kid can't take one of your guns to school is to not have any, then people would have to give up their right to bare arms if they want to do the "responsible thing" in that case - which I don't 100% agree with.

If they were negligent with how the firearm was kept - then yes. But they'd be equally responsible (IMO) if their kid had talked about wanting to kill students and had brochures for gun shows lying around the kitchen table, and used a gun from outside the house.

 

I think its a failure on many levels in this case, of the parents to see the condition of their child, of the school to recognize one of their students was so far gone he'd forefiet his future to kill his peers...and of his own peers for having no idea. You can't hold his fellow teens responsible of course (unless he told them explicitly) but there is a general wide range of failure in this case.

[ecoli]

by thirteen, the kid definately should start being responsible for their own actions. That doesn't mean I don't hold the parent's somewhat responsible, though.

[ParanoiA]

If they were negligent with how the firearm was kept - then yes. But they'd be equally responsible (IMO) if their kid had talked about wanting to kill students and had brochures for gun shows lying around the kitchen table, and used a gun from outside the house.

 

You're kidding right? We're all supposed to be little mini-detectives and put all of this together or else we go to jail? Right now, my son loves Runescape, he's 13 and enjoys slaughtering fictional characters on that game and has mentioned before that he wished he could kill this bully at school with this magic sword. So, should I report him to the authorities?

 

I think people get more logically twisted up in dealing with kids than anything else. This 13 yr old kid probably watched hours of media coverage glorifying and immortalizing the columbine shooting - obessed about it, learned everything he could about it, imagined it, planned it and then showed up to execute it. And you're all worried about silly details like guns?

 

How about dealing with the problem? The problem being a 13 yr old who fantasizes about killing those he has conflicts with, to the point of ACTION. The problem is not "gee...where did he get the gun?" - that's for Oprah.

 

I know that flies in the face of the subject of the thread, but I'm one of those parents that gets sick and tired of the blame-the-parents game everytime some kid screws up.

 

Exactly what kind of magic power do they think parents have? Most parents talk with their children and get involved in their lives as much as they can - and that still doesn't give them any magical insight as to what their kid might be capable of. Hell, I don't know a single kid over 14 on my block that isn't capable of killing everyone in his school.

[AzurePhoenix]

They definately have a share a small part of the responsibility, and if they're gonna slip up like that their rights to possess firearms should defiantely be questioned and perhaps taken away, but they themselves didn't do anything outright wrong or malicious or "bad," and for all anyone knows they might be good, wholesome people completely undeserving of prison-time, who might have just been stupidly naive or unwisely trusting of their son.

 

The kid on the otherhand... he should be locked up for a while, whether a juvenile-prison or a psyche-ward depending on his rationale and intent. No matter how good or bad his parents, he still carries the share of the blame. Afterall, it was HIM who did it.

[padren]

You're kidding right? We're all supposed to be little mini-detectives and put all of this together or else we go to jail? Right now, my son loves Runescape, he's 13 and enjoys slaughtering fictional characters on that game and has mentioned before that he wished he could kill this bully at school with this magic sword. So, should I report him to the authorities?

 

I think people get more logically twisted up in dealing with kids than anything else. This 13 yr old kid probably watched hours of media coverage glorifying and immortalizing the columbine shooting - obessed about it, learned everything he could about it, imagined it, planned it and then showed up to execute it. And you're all worried about silly details like guns?

 

How about dealing with the problem? The problem being a 13 yr old who fantasizes about killing those he has conflicts with, to the point of ACTION. The problem is not "gee...where did he get the gun?" - that's for Oprah.

 

I know that flies in the face of the subject of the thread, but I'm one of those parents that gets sick and tired of the blame-the-parents game everytime some kid screws up.

 

Exactly what kind of magic power do they think parents have? Most parents talk with their children and get involved in their lives as much as they can - and that still doesn't give them any magical insight as to what their kid might be capable of. Hell, I don't know a single kid over 14 on my block that isn't capable of killing everyone in his school.

 

Your waaaay out there - I never said have your child haulled away for making a comment...but don't you think it would deserve some attention when a child talks about wanting to kill people, like perhaps talking to him and assessing the situation further? There is a LOT of range between doing nothing at all and calling the SS to drag him away.

 

 

If you missed the point of my post it was that where the gun comes from is secondary, and only a factor at all if there is gross negligence involved - but that the real concern is how a kid goes from living his life to forfeiting his whole future to kill his fellow classmates without anyone noticing.

[ParanoiA]

They definately have a share a small part of the responsibility, and if they're gonna slip up like that their rights to possess firearms should defiantely be questioned and perhaps taken away, but they themselves didn't do anything outright wrong or malicious or "bad," and for all anyone knows they might be good, wholesome people completely undeserving of prison-time, who might have just been stupidly naive or unwisely trusting of their son.

 

How do you know there is even the slightest bit of blame to put on the parents? What if we find out that the kid rented a blow torch from AL's tool rental and cut through his dad's gun locker to get the AK-47 copy, while the parents were at work?

 

I understand that parents have a certain amount of responsibility, but these aren't Pitbulls we're talking about, they're teenage kids. We can't lock them up. (And if we did, WE'D get locked up!) Their emotions are in overdrive and they're dramatic about everything. My 13 yr old told me the other night he'd rather DIE than do his homework - while pacing the room in a sob.

 

So, somehow through all of this hormonal and emotional roller coasting I'm supposed to be able to tell when he "really does" want to kill somebody, or if he's just pissed at his gym teacher that made him do his schoolwork.

 

All of the attention should be focused on punishing this kid. Period. The parents and their responsibility in this should be investigated, but the first priority should be locking up this kid.

 

Then, the media, society and his parents can all accept the blame due them.

[AzurePhoenix]

How do you know there is even the slightest bit of blame to put on the parents? What if we find out that the kid rented a blow torch from AL's tool rental and cut through his dad's gun locker to get the AK-47 copy, while the parents were at work?

while it's possible, I'm working under the thought right now that the simplest explanation is the best without the additional information needed to state otherwise. I think it's simply most likely that the weapon wasn't properly secured. If that isn't the case, then the case changes.

 

Their emotions are in overdrive and they're dramatic about everything. My 13 yr old told me the other night he'd rather DIE than do his homework - while pacing the room in a sob.

definately, I certainly wouldn't hold them responsible for the kid's behavior itself simply because most of them are inherantly insane around that age and not even the most fantastic parents might be aware of the problem. Especially if the kid is smarter than his parents. That certainly wouldn't be their fault.

 

All of the attention should be focused on punishing this kid. Period. The parents and their responsibility in this should be investigated, but the first priority should be locking up this kid.

i completely agree. And even if investigation into how they might have unwitteningly contributed DID show they were negligent, I'd say that should NOT serve as any excuse to lessen whatever is dealt out to the kid, and that they shouldn't be held responsible for his crime at all, only for the poor weapon handling itself (if that's even a crime within a personal household, which it might not be).

[john5746]

The question of negligence on the parent's part would involve the ease with which they gave him access to bring it to school. Parents hold a lot of responsibility but they are not foolproof protectors of their own assets.

 

That is true, we need to know more detail as to how he got the gun, but I would say a gun, especially of that calibre should be kept in a gun cabinet, locked. Not under the bed or in the closet or in a box with a lock on it.

[swansont]

Shouldn't the parents have some responsibility if they own weapons?

 

Yes, depending on the situation. Do you have any information about whether they were lax in their efforts to safeguard the weapon?

 

Consider: If a 13, 14 or 15-year-old grabbed the car keys and drove off and ran someone down with the car, would you hold the parents accountable? Parents don't typically lock up their car keys. I think it's assume that an unlicensed teen doesn't have permission to use the car.

[ParanoiA]

Your waaaay out there - I never said have your child haulled away for making a comment...but don't you think it would deserve some attention when a child talks about wanting to kill people, like perhaps talking to him and assessing the situation further? There is a LOT of range between doing nothing at all and calling the SS to drag him away.

 

Right, but you said:

But they'd be equally responsible (IMO) if their kid had talked about wanting to kill students and had brochures for gun shows lying around the kitchen table, and used a gun from outside the house.

 

So, if I have that "talk" and don't assess the situation correctly, and he kills someone, then I go to jail?

 

I'm just trying to establish that fact that all this sounds good to say, but there isn't any practical end to this logic. You're still putting blame on people that have little control over their kid's behavior. There are parents out there that don't care at all. Then there are parents out there that care deeply. Neither are welcome in the life of a teen. And teens are emotionally out of control for several years of their life. If we act on everything, they'll spend their youth locked up.

 

How about instead of defaulting blame to parents of teens, try just defaulting blame to the teen?

 

18 maybe legal age, but that's not any reflection of how much control parents have over young men and women in their teens. That's the crux of my argument.

[john5746]

Consider: If a 13, 14 or 15-year-old grabbed the car keys and drove off and ran someone down with the car, would you hold the parents accountable? Parents don't typically lock up their car keys. I think it's assume that an unlicensed teen doesn't have permission to use the car.

 

Yeah, I actually thought about this scenario after my last post. If a parent has alcohol and car keys in the house, and the kid gets drunk and goes driving, is the parent responsible? Well, this is similar to the kitchen knife question. Many things can be used to harm people, but the primary use for a gun is to harm living things. An assualt rifle is primarily used for harming several living things.

 

I think that is a good line in the sand to draw. We can't keep every potentially harmful thing locked away, but we can lock guns in a reasonable manner.

 

 

 

 

So, if I have that "talk" and don't assess the situation correctly, and he kills someone, then I go to jail?.....

 

 

...How about instead of defaulting blame to parents of teens, try just defaulting blame to the teen?

 

 

It is easier to keep guns locked away than reading the mind of a teenager, so that is why I bring up this issue. I am not 'defaulting' blame from the teenager. They can lock him away, but in terms of prevention that doesn't do anything. To me, if someone has a gun at home and they do not lock it in a gun safe, then they are negligent if thier kid gets the gun and uses it. Especially if the kid walks to school on their own like this one apparently did.

[padren]

So, if I have that "talk" and don't assess the situation correctly, and he kills someone, then I go to jail?

 

I'm just trying to establish that fact that all this sounds good to say, but there isn't any practical end to this logic. You're still putting blame on people that have little control over their kid's behavior. There are parents out there that don't care at all. Then there are parents out there that care deeply. Neither are welcome in the life of a teen. And teens are emotionally out of control for several years of their life. If we act on everything, they'll spend their youth locked up.

 

How about instead of defaulting blame to parents of teens, try just defaulting blame to the teen?

 

18 maybe legal age, but that's not any reflection of how much control parents have over young men and women in their teens. That's the crux of my argument.

 

I agree with what you are saying in general, and I should have said "share responsibility" instead of "equally responsible" in my statement. I mean that if parents disregard blatant signs that they are negligent. It would be like a parent saying to their teenager "I hate it when you drive high, be safe" as he grabs his keys and takes off stoned out of his mind and he kills someone.

 

The amount of influence and the ability of parents to predict and prevent their kids from hurting others is a very gray issue and I am not trying to nail down where culpability begins and ends, just that such a threshold exists somewhere and deserves attention.

[ParanoiA]

I'm more inclined to agree with John. I can at least appreciate a gun storage law when any children are living in the home. But I can't agree with the parental witch hunt approach.

 

Any responsible gun owner will have a locker. But I don't think these kids get their guns from responsible gun owners. And I'm just weary of punishing people indirectly related to crimes like this. That opens a really nasty door. And don't think I don't blame the media more than this kid's parents, even if his dad left the guns unsecured. They romanticize violence and tragedy and then claim the moral high ground...

[big ez]

I believe that both the parent and the kid are responsible. Trust me, I deal with youth like these on a day to day basis. I work with these youth in a prison atmosphere on a day to day basis. I believe that the youth is responsible for choosing which actions to take. He chose to pick up the gun, he chose to take it to school, he chose to pull the trigger. On the other side of this, the parents are responsible. It is the parent's responsibility tho teach their children right and wrong. Teach them how to deal with their problems. A lot of the youth I see were never given this. They had to make it though their young lives learning things on their own. What I have found out about them is that their visions of what is right, wrong, and what is of value is very skewed. How are people supposed to deal with things if they are not given the avenues or tools to use to deal with them? So as I mentioned before, it is a failure on the part of the youth in using "sound" judgement, and the failure of the parent or parents in teaching their child what is right, wrong, and the appropriate way to handle things. Nowadays it seems that parents are trying to "avoid" the responsibility, "avoid" the blame for their mistakes. It is time for people to stand up and hold both parties accountable. The youth and the parent/parents.

[Glider]

Since the only way to ensure a kid can't take one of your guns to school is to not have any, then people would have to give up their right to bare arms if they want to do the "responsible thing" in that case - which I don't 100% agree with.

I don't think doing the 'responsible' thing in making an informed decision not to have firearms in the house along with young kids equates to giving up your right to own firearms. The weapon is out of harms way, but the right to bear it still exists.

 

Just because you have the right to do a thing doesn't mean you have to do it, or that you lose that right if you choose not to do it.