Looking For Advice

[herme3]

First, I hope that this post doesn’t offend anyone. If the moderators feel that this topic is inappropriate, I won’t mind if they delete it.

 

Today, I made the decision to stop attending church. For several months, I’ve been attending only because I felt like I needed to. It seemed like my family expected me to, and it would be difficult for me to explain why I didn’t want to attend anymore.

 

My parents were surprised when I said that. They instantly started blaming Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, since I had bought their books a few weeks ago. However, I had made my decision long ago with the help of several SFN members.

 

My parents told me that it was my decision to make, but they wanted me to keep quiet about it. They told me to never tell other family members or anyone else about why I don’t believe in The Bible’s version of God anymore. However, I feel that it is my right to do so. Why shouldn’t I be able to write books like Sam Harris, and attempt to convert people away from the prison of their own faith? Why should Christians be able to preach to everyone they see, yet non-Christians be forced to keep their opinions to themselves?

 

I have a strong desire to spread my opinion. Does anybody here have a similar desire? Can anybody offer any advice for me?

Edited December 8, 2010 by herme3

[husmusen]

It doesn't offend me Herme. And I doubt it will offend anyone else.

 

I think perhaps this is necessary for you, because I think you have broken free not from religion but from ritual and habit. Which are not one and the same thing.

 

But whereever you find yourself Herme, try always to love others, especally those it is not popular to love or those who don't love you.

 

Peace Herme.

Husmusen.

[JesuBungle]

herme, it takes some guts to stand up like that. Good job man. I made the switch to Buddhism in mid April. Of course I don't agree with every part of the religion, but it seems a little more realistic. This happened after I tried lsd for the one and only time. After I came down, I was never myself again, and seemed to have more feeling and emotion towards my fellow man. So I may not be christan(i even forgot how to spell it lol), or go to church, but I'm far from a bad person. This goes for you too. Just respect yourself and other people and you can't go wrong:-)

[SkepticLance]

Herme.

You are in good company. I did the same thing as you when I was about 15 years old. Just could not see any logical and rational reason for religious belief, even though I had been devout up to that point. I have seen nothing in the 40 odd years since to change my mind.

 

My advise, though, is to avoid proselytising your non belief. It will lead to you being harmed emotionally by the reactions of the strongly religious. I don't suggest you hide your new non-belief. That would be dishonest. Be open about it. Just don't push it.

 

Another reason for not becoming evangelical is that you will achieve nothing. I have been down the path of trying to convince others. It is a waste of time. People who are strongly religious will not be swayed. It is a bit like trying to knock down a brick wall by charging it with your head first. Guess who gets hurt.

[Genecks]

Most religions simply want you to do good deeds with good actions and with good thoughts in mind. Simple as that. And don't give me that Platonic/cynic stuff that any action is a good action. I'm talking about things that help society and the well-being of a person.

 

Anyway, I think you need to learn that the spoken word is more painful and powerful than the unspoken word. It is ok to find your own path in life, but scrutinizing others is not ok. Of course, refuting philosophical standpoints is a different story. But nonetheless, people simply need to acknowledge the drum other people hear. When you yell at the drum, the beat gets louder.

 

I have a tendency to not talk about religions in a negative way. I simply talk about the philosophy, rituals, practices, etc. of religions. I don't say any of them is better, nor do I try to support one over the other.

 

I stopped attending church a long time ago. Well, I go when I can or feel the need. Other than that, I'm simply too busy or should be busy. And I know people would not be pleased if I brought my college book into the church to read during a sermon.

 

I'm think from a philosophical standpoint, people make an error when they call God omnibenevolant. So, God might send people to hell. Of course, God is infinitely complex because of mind limitations in the physical body with biological brain processing. We can't really know how God works. I've got a theory about this that I've been meaning to work out, but I'm pretty sure God doesn't want us to know God, itself. I call it "defense theory." If you knew God, and God knows everything, you'd be an omnigod. That doesn't work out so well for God.

 

Anyway, final word:

Keep your beliefs to yourself unless asked about them from a superior. You can discuss the beliefs of others. However, do not discriminate against another religion based on your beliefs. Instead, show educated and intelligent counterpoints that some people have to various religions without showing negativity or too much bias.

 

And the error point is very loaded and would help create an argumentative thesis:

I think it’s time that people start spreading the word about Biblical errors and contradictions.

 

I wouldn't say something like that. Contraditions in logic might be there, but errors would be up for debate. Of course, you'd have to clarify what you mean by "errors." Yet interpretation has mangled future texts. In all, I'd be careful about what I say to others. I think one of the most important things I learned this year is that language is a very powerful tool when combined with philosophy. Be careful what you say.

[iglak]

What's Wrong with Blasphemy?

a great video on youtube, of some TV special, that covers this subect quite well.

 

i'm sorry, but the only advice i can give is in the form of life lessons, such as: never judge others; and always strive for compassion towards everyone.

[Klaynos]

Herme3 I am very happy to see you've stood up for you beliefs and at least your parents said it was your decision. But I am also saddened to see that they appear to be scared of other members of their faith so wish you to keep the matter quiet. If it was me, I'd keep it quiet because people can be quite militant about people bad mouthing their beliefs... And it would not be fair on your parents if they got sidelined at church for your choice as they at least seem to support it.

[In My Memory]

Herme3,

I have a strong desire to spread my opinion. Does anybody here have a similar desire? Can anybody offer any advice for me?

It helps to at least remember that you dont have to go to church, its not a requirement for Christianity. Actually its not even biblical, theres no place in the bible that says anyone needs to go to church or worship in groups.

 

It can sometimes be interesting to post on other boards about bible contradictions, but that usually comes off as trolling. And if you get your list of contradictions and copy-paste them large posts around different boards, you'll look like you're trolling for sure.

 

Its much better to spend your time familiarizing yourself with the academic and intellectual side of religious studies, so if you have the time, take a look at Truth and Fiction in the Bible by Robin Lane Fox. Its a nice short read, has a lot of good information (although at least 1 part of the book seems out of place with modern scholarship, and thats where he makes an argument that the Book of John is written by a primary source). It'll provide you with a lot more interesting material than "omg, this verse says 7000 people fought in the war, and this verse says 7100, another contradiction!!!", and it'll help you really appreciate the complexity of Christianity from an informed point of view.

 

 

 

iglak,

What's Wrong with Blasphemy?

a great video on youtube' date=' of some TV special, that covers this subect quite well.

 

i'm sorry, but the only advice i can give is in the form of life lessons, such as: never judge others; and always strive for compassion towards everyone.[/quote']

Another youtube favorite:

[the tree]

An excellent quote from the London Review of Books, although I can't remember which specific journalist said it:

Imagine reading a book about evolution by someone who's only education in biology comes from the Oxford Book Of Birds, that is what it is like to read Richard Dawkins writing about theology.

Anyway, my point here is to do what IMM says, and read, I haven't got the book that IMM recomended but it is damn well going on my wishlist.

If you have any feeling that you want to express then by all means expresses it but read up on it first, that way you will be able to articulate what you want to say with so much more of a deep understanding and readiness for debate.

 

Everyone should read more.

[alan2here]

It tends to be based verry much on regon, I know there are a lot of religous people about but in some places or types of socity they will outnumber the rest of us and in some places it is the other way around. It is good of you not to go to church if you no longer bellive.

[ydoaPs]

Its much better to spend your time familiarizing yourself with the academic and intellectual side of religious studies, so if you have the time, take a look at Truth and Fiction in the Bible[/url'] by Robin Lane Fox.

Have you read Misquoting Jesus? I recently got it, and I think it is a good read. I learned a thing or two from it as well. I was going to pick up the Marginal Jew, but I didn't have room for it in my coffin locker. I'm going to have to get rid of some books before I get new ones.

[padren]

If it was me, I'd keep it quiet because people can be quite militant about people bad mouthing their beliefs... And it would not be fair on your parents if they got sidelined at church for your choice as they at least seem to support it.

 

At the same time though, if his parents chose a church that happened to be made up of people who would give them flak because their kid is not a member of the faith, its really on them for choosing to associate with such people.

 

 

I do believe in diplomacy, which is really saying what you mean and being true to yourself while delivering it in the least harshest way.

 

I personally don't think I'd have referred to the church as a cult, because of the bite that would have and I think I could be true to my beliefs without using that word, but I can respect it if you felt you had to.

 

 

My recommendation is be open with your current beliefs in the most diplomatic way possible - tell people you don't believe in god if asked, or whatever you feel to be true. If you can deliver the message without touching on your more biting observations then do so where possible.

 

 

As for evangalizing the faults of the bible I would stay away from that unless someone approaches you with the topic. I say this because these faults don't really matter to them, combating faith with reason is a fool's errand that only rarely hits upon a person right at the tilting point...other wise its ineffective.

 

Also, its better IHMO to live by one's own advice and only give it when asked or you see a clear way easily accepted advice can help someone. People that try to tell everyone else what's going on usually come across as compensating for their own lack of real understanding of the issue.

 

But do recommend books, talk with people, be open - just don't go picking theological fights, and try to be as kind worded as you can while remaining honest.

 

I guess thats my 2 cents.

[-Demosthenes-]

My parents told me that it was my decision to make, but they wanted me to keep quiet about it. They told me to never tell other family members or anyone else about why I don’t believe in The Bible’s version of God anymore.

 

Bull crap. It's a sign that this religion has more to do with social needs, rather than spiritual ones.

[woelen]

I have a strong desire to spread my opinion. Does anybody here have a similar desire? Can anybody offer any advice for me?

Be careful with that. If you shout this from the roofs, then you step in the same pitfall as many evangelists, who shout from the roofs about their belief. You can talk about and discuss this subject when it happens to come along, but don't try to be a new kind of evangelist. You will not reach anything, but frustration and annoyance.

 

Besides that, what you now state is just your opinion, there is no sound theological basis for this, but discussing that better can be done in the upcoming theology forums. I'm willing to discuss such things with you, but not here.

 

I agree with other people who posted about your parents and other family members. It more looks like social needs, than true christian belief. I'm sad to read that your church is acting like this. They do not seem to care about your faith, but only care about their social structure. Of course, I must admit, I only know about one side of the story....

[Rocket Man]

i've grown up christian, and it's really only recently that i realised i can cut my own path, i dont need to follow an organised "faith", a religion is a rationalisation, one designed to impart a feeling of higher purpose. a sudden stop to thought is a concept most people cant come to terms with. a religion gives you a "next life" to look forward to.

your parents hushing you up like that is just plain wrong but then again, so is your determination to tell people that what they've believed for their whole life is wrong.

dont bash the bible, or any religious text for that matter, you really dont want to get caught up in a religious dispute. thats where so-called "holy wars" come from.

i think the only way an intellectual like your self can go through life is to pick a philosophy to run with, a religion is a ready made. you dont have to beleive everything they say, just make sure you still have purpose and direction.

[gib65]

My parents told me that it was my decision to make, but they wanted me to keep quiet about it. They told me to never tell other family members or anyone else about why I don’t believe in The Bible’s version of God anymore. However, I feel that it is my right to do so. Why shouldn’t I be able to write books like Sam Harris, and attempt to convert people away from the prison of their own faith? Why should Christians be able to preach to everyone they see, yet non-Christians be forced to keep their opinions to themselves?

 

Hi Herme3,

 

Well, you're right. You shouldn't have to keep quiet while other Christians exercise the freedom to preach their views. But we live in a world where we sometimes have to curtail our desires to do what we "should" feel free to do. I would think of it this way: I don't think your parents are trying to stamp out your right to express your views; it sounds like they're just concerned about their public image. Yes, it's an incredibly petty thing to worry about, but c'est la vie. Also, if they're telling you that it's your decision to choose your own path, that tells me they want to respect your position. Therefore, I think they're open to compromise - I would respect their wishes not to voice your opinions around relatives and other community members. But what you also need is your own community, one with like-minded people in which you can express yourself. That'll allow you to blow off steam and such which is very important psychologically considering the kind of transition you're going through.

 

BTW, I hope you don't mind my asking, but how old are you?

 

I have a strong desire to spread my opinion. Does anybody here have a similar desire? Can anybody offer any advice for me?

 

Yes, I do (have similar desires, that is). That's why I'm on several forums like SFN (others include mostly philosophy forums). So here's some advice. No one's looking to be a follower. No one says "Geez, I wish someone would come along and preach some doctrine to me so I can hang on their every word and devote my life to following them to the grave." People want to have their own opinions on almost everything, and given the choice between being a leader and a follower, guess what 99% of people are going to choose? For the reason alone, you're going to encounter resistance from anyone who you try to persuade - either they'll already be settled on a belief counter to yours and will defend it regardless of right reason, or they'll already agree with you in which case you won't need to convert them or preach to them.

 

Of course, this doesn't mean you can't be a leader. It just means you'll have find a community or group of people who, after getting to know you well, will decide for themselves that you'd make a great leader. You don't go up to them and tell them you aught to be their leader - you just introduce yourself to them, make friends, find your niche in the community (if they can afford a niche for you), and from there, let things evolve by themselves. If you were really meant to be a leader for these people, it'll happen naturally.

 

Oh, and your crusade has been fought since the Enlightenment. It hasn't extinguished Christianity or other religions, and I don't think it ever will (as a matter of fact, I hope it won't), but at least it's given us the right to choose what we want to believe.

[herme3]

It was interesting to see how some of my other family members reacted to my decision to stop attending church. My Grandmother and one of my Aunts went to church with me every Sunday. Both of them said it was my decision to make, and they respect my decision.

Edited December 17, 2010 by herme3

[gib65]

The only place I can find like-minded people is right here in these forums.

 

Well, that's a start.

 

Everybody else seems to have a very negative view of non-Christians.

 

Believe me, the whole world isn't like that. Wait 'til college (are you going to college?). Where do you live by the way - small town or big city?

[woelen]

I thought that her reaction was a little strange. She's a really nice person, but she's not the type of person who is usually obsessed with Christian morals. In fact, she thinks I'm completely weird because I don't go to lots of rock concerts and parties. She normally seems like the type of person who likes to have fun instead of worrying about things. That's why her reaction surprised me a little.

Herme3, I understand that reaction of your aunt. My reaction in that other thread about "why religions are bad", also comes from a similar concern. It is good if young people go out with other young people (and such a thing is not only good for young people, also married people, who have children themselves every now and then should go out and have fun together sometimes , we do on a regular basis, having someone else take care of our kids, and at other times we take care of other's kids).

People need contacts, and there are many places where you get contacts. So, going to a good concert (be it rock, or classical music, whatever you like) with some friends indeed is a very good thing to do. Going to a nice bar also can be very good and relaxing. Apparently, in your family and church there is some consensus about not doing such things if you are christian? Of course, getting totally drunk every weekend, or being stoned half of your time, is another matter, but having fun together, having a few good beers occassionally and enjoying good music are parts of a life, which make it worth living.

 

You say that your aunt is not the type, who is worrying all the time. Then my opinion is that she had understood better than all those people around you, who are worrying all the time about their afterlife. I also do not worry about my afterlife, I really believe that it is OK. The bible itself is clear about it. It has passages like "drink wine and have your heart filled with joy", and "enjoy your youth". This does not say that it encourages you to drink until you are totally drunk or to be a party-beast, stiffened up by XTC, but it does say, that occassionally it is good to have a party and then also having a drink is not a problem at all, you even should enjoy it.

[SkepticLance]

Herme said :

 

I was always trying to convert atheists into Christians. Instead, the exact opposite happened. What really changed my beliefs was when some of the members started listing scientific errors found in The Bible.

 

You need to understand that this makes you special. I estimate that 85% of the population (any population) is unable to make that move. They are locked into emotional thinking. You, on the other hand, belong to that special group of humans who are capable of thinking rationally. And that IS special.

 

I have always seen this as a kind of maturity, that most do not achieve. This is not to say that religious people never belong to our group. I am willing to concede that some may come to their religiosity through a rational thought process, though I do not recall having met any like this. However, you Hermes, are special. And rare.