Boston University group offers 'White' scholarship

[Sisyphus]

Look, they could be living one of two lives. 1) A life in their country of origin, which is a place I doubt most of them would want to live, or 2) a life here in America, even tho' it took the abuse of their ancestors to accomplish that. Be honest with yourself and think "which would they choose, to be living in their country of origin and have their ancestors be slaves to their own race (as they were before they were sold), or to have their ancestors act as slaves here in America so they could grow up in a progressive and devoloping country?" I think we both know the answer. And yes, history is sad and brutal, and this in not a pretty picture, but it is an accurate one.

 

I'm against reparations, as well, but that's a ridiculous and offensive argument. Stick with the "people aren't responsible for things their ancestors did, nor are they owed anything for slights against those ancestors" argument. The "we were ultimately doing them a favor" argument isn't going to fly.

 

You say I oversimplify the intentions of African-Americans, but while there are exceptions to the rule, when you look at the culture they have developed in the past 150 years or so, you see it is a culture of materialism. Who can have the most expensive car, the most "bitches," the bigger television, the most expensive clothes, and they'll do almost anything to attain it: sell drugs, con welfare, steal, etc. For those who achieve a higher education, they want to attain high positions, and when they don't recieve it they complain about how it must be because of their skin color.

 

You're confusing black culture with American culture, and, more broadly, capitalist culture. What you're talking about is a caricature. Do you know any black people?

 

They set up programs exclusive to blacks: scholarships, defamation leagues, and the like. But if a white person tried to establish such a thing, it would be "racist."

 

Well, yes. Those organizations were founded to even the playing field. At this point, I think it would be a fair argument to make that their mission is mostly complete, and that they do more harm than good. We don't really need an NAACP anymore. But if that's true, it's a very recent development, within the last generation. The sad truth is that, yes, a lot of people were very unhappy about the civil rights movement. They don't just change their minds because a law tells them to, and the entire power structure doesn't change overnight. People learn to speak in different ways, so you can't accuse them of overt racism, but that doesn't mean they aren't. So yes, it's reasonable to have watchdog groups looking out for minority interests, and not reasonable to have the same thing for white people. But I agree, it's time to end it.

 

Now don't get confused. I'm not a racist, I'm simply stating facts.

 

I might contest that. Only seeing problems in one group, when the problems are everywhere: racism or not? If you see the issues in terms of "us" and "them," racism or not? Do you have to know you're a racist in order to be one? We live in funny times.

 

The only problem I have with the culture of African-Americans is that it is mixing with our original culture and slowing the progression of society. You may not despise it at the moment, but maybe one day when your kid begins wearing baggy pants, listening to music about ho's and drugs, and talking gibberish, just maybe you'll come to abhor the blending of cultures in our country.

 

See, it's very hard not to take that as racist paranoia. Or at least irrational reactionism. Our "original culture?" What is that, exactly? American Indians? Culture changes, and "American culture" has always been a mix of many cultures, and I would say that's what makes it great. "Abhor the blending of cultures?" I mean, really?

[Dak]

Whoa nellie

 

out of interest, is that an american term?

 

i could have sworn it was scottish?

 

please define "equality". Because there's a whole lot of inequality that I consider to be not only healthy in our society, but downright necessary.

 

as i said, it's not enough, after decades of inherent racism, for a few polititians to simply go 'hey, let's not be racist anymore'.

 

when black people came to our countries, they were slaves; then, they were officially second-class citizens; then, they were unnoficially second-class citizens.

 

if we (read: 'the govournment', i suppose) force black people, as a whole, into a situation whereby they're poorer, less well educated, under-represented in the workforce, and with a whole other set of crap to put up with that white people, generally speaking, dont have to put up with, and then go 'hey, we'll stop being racist now -- if you guys, with your lesser access to education due to your povery, and your lesser access to work due to your lesser education, can claw your collective way out of the shit-hole that we've buried you in, then you can: we won't stop you just cos your black', whilst all the time racism is free to continue slyly due to under-representation of black people in the workforce, govournment, etc, then we're essentially allowing the effects of the subjugation of black people to continue weeeeeeeell after it's officially stopped.

 

i see 'affirmative action'* and 'positive discrimination' as (rather ugly) ways of avoiding the above. now, then, black people should have, or should be approaching having, equal status as white people. any inequalitites that are attributable to ye olde subjugation of the blacks would be the inequalities to which i was reffering, and they'd be inequalities which might justify continuing with the AA/PD thingies.

 

and, to clarify my statement: the fact that experienceing america/britain with the inequities that are the 'echos' of the black subjugation is better than living in africa does not excuse those equalities, any more than the us or uk could inpose discriminatory laws and say 'meh, if is better than living in africa, which is where you'd still be if we hadn't enslaved your ansestors'

 

only tangently related, I also think it's inportant that our govournments pays punitive costs. next time the govournment consideres tolerating the unfair subjugation of a peoples, maybe it'll think twice, knowing that, if it's ever proved to be an unjust subjugation, all its people might have to end up footing the 'fine' in order to sort the mess out.

 

----------

*barring the bit about white families paying black ones. that's just stupid.

[Pangloss]

out of interest, is that an american term?

 

i could have sworn it was scottish?

 

Interesting. On my part that comes movies about the Old West -- The Searchers, Shane, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, etc etc etc. But of course much (if not all) that happened in early America was imported from elsewhere; mainly Europe. So that wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

 

 

I'm holding off from the larger discussion for a moment to give others a chance to speak up, but I appreciate the clarification.

[CPL.Luke]

I always believed that thatfraze originated in an old john wayne movie where his horse was named nellie and at one point when he wanted the horse to stop he said woah nellie.

 

Also its interestigthat there doesn't seem to be anybody on the flipside of this issue in this thread. maybe that demonstrates the way most people feel about this issue, out of curiosity is anybody here in a minority group?

[Pangloss]

I posted against the measure on the first page of this thread. I see it as two wrongs making a right. I respect the other side, though, and certainly empathize with the sentiment.

 

It is a little surprising that so few people are taking that view, I agree.

[ParanoiA]

Well that'll raise a few hackles. I can think of a few things wrong with that argument just off the top of my head.

 

I don't think the North's success can be pawned off as "greed and transcendentalist mentality". Clearly it's more like "intelligent and motivated self-interest". And the South was hardly immune to greed. I think you also oversimplify the motives and intentions of modern African-Americans, and saying that if it wasn't for slavery they wouldn't be here today is an awful lot like saying they should be grateful for having been slaves. That kind of apologism doesn't carry well because, as you say, slavery was wrong.

 

And it simply isn't necessary to make that kind of argument in order to also make the point that affirmative action and reparations are detrimental and unjustified.

 

I disagree. I think it is necessary to make that argument. Only because that's the issue surrounding reparations for slavery.

 

I understand saying that if it wasn't for slavery they wouldn't be here today is like saying they should be grateful - but that's the whole point of history and life on earth. All of us, our status, our culture are the result of history - both good and bad. I don't expect anyone to thank white folk for enslaving their ancestors, just like I don't expect anyone to persecute white folk for enlsaving their ancestors. It happened, and whether you like it or not, this is the result. This is not the only example of an enslaved people being arguably better off downstream in history.

 

I hope though, that no one concludes that I believe slavery was ok or the least bit acceptable. If I could go back in time and magically change all of this so that not a single african was enslaved by us, I would. The question I have is, are there any black folk that would want that changed?

 

And I do mean that in an inquisitive, thoughtful manner.

[john5746]

Also its interestigthat there doesn't seem to be anybody on the flipside of this issue in this thread. maybe that demonstrates the way most people feel about this issue, out of curiosity is anybody here in a minority group?

 

Dak seems to be arguing the other side. He isn't necessarily saying he agrees with his arguments, but he is doing a pretty good job of it.

 

One thing we need to consider is that other minorities can be hurt by this as well. The main target group should be the poor, not race. It startes to make me wonder if certain groups will never be able to perform as well as others. If asians > whites > blacks on SAT's no matter what, then do we need to just always lower the bar by race? SAT is just one measurement anyway and is becoming less important a measure for schools.

 

Culture is an important issue. The African American culture is a problem, addressed by Bill Cosby and others. A big part of this problem can be traced back to American affluence and the welfare state.

[john5746]

I hope though, that no one concludes that I believe slavery was ok or the least bit acceptable. If I could go back in time and magically change all of this so that not a single african was enslaved by us, I would. The question I have is, are there any black folk that would want that changed?

 

I know what you mean as far as race as a whole, but individually, I think any type of change like that has huge effects that may take any of us out of existence. So that question would probably be equally compelling to any American of any race.

[zyncod]

What the heck happened to this place? How has a thread like this been able to perpetuate itself for so long?

 

You know why "white guilt" is valid? Because nobody starts at zero in this world. Yes, everybody might be created equal, but most people here were created white, male Americans. And yeah, that's not equal. Just look at hotcomm's comment for an example of why that's true:

 

You say I oversimplify the intentions of African-Americans, but while there are exceptions to the rule, when you look at the culture they have developed in the past 150 years or so, you see it is a culture of materialism. Who can have the most expensive car, the most "bitches," the bigger television, the most expensive clothes, and they'll do almost anything to attain it: sell drugs, con welfare, steal, etc. For those who achieve a higher education, they want to attain high positions, and when they don't recieve it they complain about how it must be because of their skin color. They set up programs exclusive to blacks: scholarships, defamation leagues, and the like. But if a white person tried to establish such a thing, it would be "racist."

 

Do you honestly believe that somebody that says something like this is going to treat a black person exactly the same as a white person? (and for your information, hotcomm, let's see how you act when every white person on the subway grabs up their purses/bags when you get on - day after day after day-, even if you're coming from a stock broker job in a suit - I've seen it happen literally hundreds of times).

 

The fact is, affirmative action is a drop in the pond. And it's mostly in academics - not where it truly matters, in the job market. As probably the only person here who can honestly say I lost a job due to affirmative action (on very good authority), I have the most standing to pass judgment on it. And yet I still say that it does not go far enough. Unless you're willing to go live as a farmer in Namibia, you're benefiting from how your ancestors raped, stole, and killed. And to arbitrarily decide that you're being fair now, is (excuse the language) complete and utter bullshit.

 

So go ahead, have your "reverse affirmative action" scholarships. By your complete insensitivity to what has happened in the past 60 years in this country, you're just showing that you would have been behind Jim Crow laws (or if you want to go back further...). It's going to be so f'ing satisfying to watch what happens in the future. Because, y'know what? You people always lose. Always. And then you pretend you were behind Rosa Parks, or Frederick Douglass, or Martin Luther King. And we get to watch you die a little inside. And it's great. But you always have a little bit more hate left to give.

[Pangloss]

Well I think one of the reasons why threads like this perpetuate is because people feel justified in making statements like "white guilt is valid".

 

This is a good debate.

[Aardvark]

You know why "white guilt" is valid?

 

In my opinion stating that someone is guilty or innocent on the basis of their skin colour is plainly wrong. Just because someone is white does not make them guilty of anything any more than being black does so.

 

Do you honestly believe that somebody that says something like this is going to treat a black person exactly the same as a white person? (and for your information, hotcomm, let's see how you act when every white person on the subway grabs up their purses/bags when you get on - day after day after day-, even if you're coming from a stock broker job in a suit - I've seen it happen literally hundreds of times).

 

Yes, racism exists. Prejudice continues. That doesn't logically lead to an argument for 'positive' discrimination. How is that a solution to that problem?

 

And yet I still say that it does not go far enough. Unless you're willing to go live as a farmer in Namibia, you're benefiting from how your ancestors raped, stole, and killed.

 

A presumption that only whites are or were guilty of raping and stealing.

 

Looking at history all peoples and civilisations have been built on the subjugation and domination of other peoples. Aztecs, Mongols, Zulus, Ottomans and the list goes on. On your reasoning the more successful a civilisation is the more guilty it is, while the weaker and more oppressed the more innocent it is. Weakness is morality, strength is sin.

 

The Xan people (Kalahari Bushmen) inhabited all of Africa South of the Congo region. They have now virtually disappeared because of the genocidal ethnic cleansing praticised by Negroes invading from Central and East Africa. Are the Negroes of South Africa subject to 'black guilty' about the actions of their ancestors?

 

The present day Indians of America are the descendants of people who were probably not the first to reach America. Their is some evidence that North Europeans reached America in the last ice age.

 

Is their 'Red guilty' about the extermination of those early Northern Europeans?

 

There is even some evidence that Australian Aboriginals reached America via the Bering Straits, That Australian Aboriginals inhabited South East Asian, living in present day Japan, Korea, South East China and Indonesia. The Mongoloid peoples drove them away, ethnically cleansed them.

 

Is their 'Yellow Guilty' about that early act of invasion, stealing, killing and no doubt other unpleasantnessess?

 

 

 

And to arbitrarily decide that you're being fair now, is (excuse the language) complete and utter bullshit.

 

Fine, but i'm not subjugating them, stealing their land, raping or killing them. Now they can get on with their lives and make the best that they can. Life is still unfair, but feeding a sense of grievance and entitlement isn't going to make it any fairer.

 

Because, y'know what? You people always lose. Always.

 

Not entirely sure who you are refering to here.

 

And we get to watch you die a little inside. And it's great. But you always have a little bit more hate left to give.

 

Again, i'm not sure who you are referring to but i do like your passion.

 

Anyway, if you are concerned about unfairness surely it would be better to tackle it in a more objective fashion, target those people who are underperforming. Focus help on the ill educated, the poorly housed, the low paid and unemployed. If it is true that certain ethnic groups are unfairly trated then they will receive a disproportionate amount of the help, and it will avoid the problem of wealthy members of ethnic minorities being advanced at the expense of poor whites (and what ever other ethnic groups are not favoured).

 

In summation, 'positive' discrimination is wrong in principle and additionally does not work in practice. A bad combination.

[hotcommodity]

unless you want to tell me that there are no rich-ass materialistic white people, who show off their new car, or 50" widescreen? and no of them break the law to get material luxuries?

 

both black and white youth (and adults):

 

1/ wear baggy pants ¹

2/ listen to music centred on sex and drugs

3/ talk jibberish

 

to, i would suggest, an equal degree.

 

I agree, and you're making my point for me. This is the negative effect that their culture has on our society. All of the above has been popularized by rappers, sport-players, and the like. And all the kids watching this on television or hearing it on the radio think that it's "cool" to act that way.

 

You know why "white guilt" is valid?

 

I don't have any "white guilt," as I never did anything wrong. Therefore it lacks validity.

 

let's see how you act when every white person on the subway grabs up their purses/bags when you get on - day after day after day-, even if you're coming from a stock broker job in a suit - I've seen it happen literally hundreds of times).

 

You mean, like, people don't want to take the chance of having their belongings stolen? What bastards!

 

And to arbitrarily decide that you're being fair now, is (excuse the language) complete and utter bullshit.

 

For me to try and make amends would require me to have done something wrong in the first place. What's done is done. I, and other white Americans, don't owe you a thing.

 

So go ahead, have your "reverse affirmative action" scholarships. By your complete insensitivity to what has happened in the past 60 years in this country, you're just showing that you would have been behind Jim Crow laws (or if you want to go back further...).

 

Again, no one living today has to retain any guilt for what happened to your ancestors, because we did nothing to them. And yes, I would support the Black Codes today, as it would keep a huge chunk of the population from mooching off of unemployment, and keep firearms out of the hands of "gangsta" types, making our streets safer. Exceptions to the rule would be those who can prove their intelligence via I.Q. testing or something of the sort.

 

It's going to be so f'ing satisfying to watch what happens in the future. Because, y'know what? You people always lose. Always. And then you pretend you were behind Rosa Parks, or Frederick Douglass, or Martin Luther King. And we get to watch you die a little inside. And it's great. But you always have a little bit more hate left to give

 

We always lose? wtf. I don't pretend I was behind Rose Parks, or Martin Luther King, who was an idiot. People watch his famous speech and accept it as truth while he tries to misrepresent the intentions of our founding fathers and make Lincoln look like an African-American sympathizer. Beyond that, your last paragraph was bordering unintelligible. Feel free to elaborate.

[GutZ]

Well I think one of the reasons why threads like this perpetuate is because people feel justified in making statements like "white guilt is valid".

 

Maybe not justified, but there is nothing wrong with feeling bad about what happened. The "I didn't do it, so it's not my problem." is far worse. Life would be pretty easy if people generally thought that, which I don't think people ultimately do, it's "cold" and "inhumane", which makes me think people just believe that "white guilt" seems like "I am responsible". It's not really the issue since your not going to watch someone burn to death while your holding a bucket of water just because you didn't do it.

[Sisyphus]

Holy sh!t, this is getting crazy. hotcomm, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt (though it's hard) and say I don't understand what you're trying to say. How was MLK an idiot? How, exactly, would Jim Crow laws be fair? Do you think slavery never should have been abolished, or what?

[ParanoiA]

Do you honestly believe that somebody that says something like this is going to treat a black person exactly the same as a white person?

 

I don't remember being treated the same as a black person by another black person. Do you honestly believe that any black person treats white people like other black persons? Why do you expect the animals of this world to so easily act against their ingroup / outgroup psychological programming? I mean, it isn't acceptable to practice prejudice, but you expect our society to eliminate any and all traces of mannerisms that are quite literally hardwired in our design? Can I expect the same from the rest of the races or is that just a white thing?

 

(and for your information, hotcomm, let's see how you act when every white person on the subway grabs up their purses/bags when you get on - day after day after day-, even if you're coming from a stock broker job in a suit - I've seen it happen literally hundreds of times).

 

Did you also pay attention when they did this to white folks too or do you just observe when it happens to you? I've seen folks do this a lot in similar circumstances without a single black person or minority in the vicinity. I never thought about the fact they might be "long hairists". I just thought they didn't know me and I don't know them so why in the hell should either one of us trust each other?

 

Unless you're willing to go live as a farmer in Namibia, you're benefiting from how your ancestors raped, stole, and killed. And to arbitrarily decide that you're being fair now, is (excuse the language) complete and utter bullshit.

 

Well that goes for the whole frickin' world there shirlock. There isn't a speck of land on this rock that wasn't stolen and re-stolen and murdered over. Everyone on this planet is living off of the raping, killing, theft, of their ancestors. You just want to concentrate on recent murder and theft because it will benefit you, or because you are white and want to appear remorseful and fair. While that's noble, it's shallow. If you want to feel guilty for your granddad's actions, go right ahead but don't expect the rest of us to be so trendy and thoughtless.

 

It's going to be so f'ing satisfying to watch what happens in the future. Because, y'know what? You people always lose. Always. And then you pretend you were behind Rosa Parks, or Frederick Douglass, or Martin Luther King. And we get to watch you die a little inside. And it's great. But you always have a little bit more hate left to give.

 

And now your racism comes out. You people?? Get to watch us die a little inside? It's great? A lot of pent up hatred in that last paragraph.

 

I guess you do know first hand what it's like to judge and stereotype and blanketly blame an entire race for the actions of a few. Just like the racist bigots before you, they all thought they were righteous.

[Sisyphus]

Um, I think by "you people" he meant social conservatives, not caucasians. As in, every generation has it's social war: slavery, women's suffrage, the civil right's movement, etc., and the liberals always win, which is true, and the conservatives of the next generation have to pretend they agreed all along, speaking "politically correctly" while secretly longing for the good old days. I happen to agree that that is usually the pattern, and I expect to see them same thing happen with our generation's issues, like homosexual rights and secularization and such. Affirmative action, however, I expect to die, and rightfully so.

[Pangloss]

... or Martin Luther King, who was an idiot. People watch his famous speech and accept it as truth while he tries to misrepresent the intentions of our founding fathers and make Lincoln look like an African-American sympathizer.

 

Wow. I can think of few things in the entire history of my participation here that I've disagreed with more than practically every phrase in that quote.

[Dak]

I agree, and you're making my point for me. This is the negative effect that their culture has on our society. All of the above has been popularized by rappers, sport-players, and the like. And all the kids watching this on television or hearing it on the radio think that it's "cool" to act that way.

 

if you quote me, then someone else, could you make sure you attribute at least the first non-me quote to the originator please, otherwize it looks like your attributing all the quotes to me.

 

1/ wear baggy pants

 

the link to madness wasnt completely irrelivent. punk first had one dress-code, then another, then became very tight-leather-centric, then became very bright and baggy.

 

whilst i dont particularly try to fit into any particular style of dress, i'd say, if i had to classify my 'style', it'd be punk. bright, garish, hawaian shirts and... zomg... baggy trousers.

 

it's a distinclty punk/rock thing, at least in this country. ie, not neccesarily attributable to black people. in fact, given that racism and naziism used to be a fashionable part of punk, i'd say black people were underrepresented in punk, and can't really be given credit for any fashion changes in the punk movement.

 

this is, of cource, ignoring flairs, which were the fault of white people (insert joke about white guilt here), and baggy pantaloons in iirc tudor times.

 

black people did not invent baggy trousers.

 

2/ listen to music centred on sex and drugs

 

most music, from all contemporary cultures, focuses around sex. see: pop. lots of music focuses on drugs aswell. black people did not invent music about sex and drugs (sex, drugs, and rock and roll anyone?).

 

unless you want to classify, say, the beatles as a black-rap group.

 

3/ talk jibberish

 

this is, again, common to any group of people, and is a natural effect of them spending time semi-isolated from other cultures. kids generally over-emphasize it to exclude adults. agian, not the reserve of blacks.

 

hell, lots of people 'talk jibberish'. im sure it sounds at least semi-jibberish if i say 'get yer bloody trousers off the pavement, yer wanker'. shakespear wrote in jibberish. in th' coon'ree, ae bis spee'in' loike this, and th' grokles no be understandin a wor' e bis sayin. ahch, tha wee bairns in scotland be heatherin lahk this*.

 

we even do it on teh interwebz lolly rox0r roffle-copters.

 

basically, i dont see how any of this is attributable to black people, or even how it's 'negitively effecting our societies'.

 

i'm going to give you slightly less benifit of the doubt than sysiphus. your oppinion of black people and parts of your society is, to put it bluntly, very stupid. of all the wrongs in this world, ventelated clothing, rude songs, and slang probably rank extremely lowly, and are not attributable to black people.

 

by judging all black people by the ones on tv and the popular conception of 'gangstaz' (which it appears you're doing), your basically doing the equivelent of judging all white people based on tom cruse and the popular conception of rednecks.

 

and, jezuz, are you really trying to say that the fact that white people are also materialistic and criminal proves your point that it's the black peoples fault?

 

Affirmative action, however, I expect to die, and rightfully so.

 

the uk analogue -- 'positive' discrimination -- is applicable to any minority, from blacks to gays/women/transexuals (even, under some circumstances, white males), so i guess it might stick around in the uk for these newly not-discriminated-against groups. maybe similar will happen in the us? heterosexual guilt?

 

the whole unfair discrimination thing just needs to be sorted out once-and-for-all, imo.

 

----------

* actually, i think that might have changed from scottish to yorkshire to brummy, but you get my point.

[ParanoiA]

... or Martin Luther King, who was an idiot. People watch his famous speech and accept it as truth while he tries to misrepresent the intentions of our founding fathers and make Lincoln look like an African-American sympathizer.

 

What the hell is this about? MLK was an idiot? MLK probably saved everyone's ass from a racial meltdown. His speeches were emotional and delivered with conviction and faith you can feel in his words. Have you ever actually heard this speech? He managed to advance civil rights and inspire millions to do the same, with peace and dignity. You should only hope to matter a fraction as much to the world.

 

And while history reminds us Lincoln's primary reason for civil war was preservation of the union, I'm also reminded of Bush's primary reason for Iraq was WMD's...Lincoln was sympathetic to the plight of african american slaves, a morality developed over the course of his life. I doubt he saw african americans as equals, that's true, but he saw something wrong with enslaving people no matter their judgement of them.

[Sisyphus]

Indeed. Lincoln's rise to popularity was primarily because of the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

[zyncod]

Um, I think by "you people" he meant social conservatives, not caucasians. As in, every generation has it's social war: slavery, women's suffrage, the civil right's movement, etc., and the liberals always win, which is true, and the conservatives of the next generation have to pretend they agreed all along, speaking "politically correctly" while secretly longing for the good old days. I happen to agree that that is usually the pattern, and I expect to see them same thing happen with our generation's issues, like homosexual rights and secularization and such. Affirmative action, however, I expect to die, and rightfully so.

 

That is exactly what I meant by you people. Primarily, I meant hotcomm. And I expect affirmative action to die, too - when equality is achieved. Because right now, you have people that act like hotcomm do and think that nearly every black person is a "gangsta." And many of these people don't even have the courage to post their beliefs on an anonymous forum

aside: I doubt that hotcomm has the sufficient courage of his convictions to post his real name and workplace. I'll do it if you will, hotcomm.

 

Anyway, we effectively have a racial second class of citizens perpetuated by people that believe these types of things. We need to counter this. We need people to see blacks, Hispanics, women, etc, acting capably in positions of power. And we still have racists/sexists holding them back - people that naturally think that a black person is a thief or not as capable as a white person. Really, one generation is all we need to show people that their stereotypes are wrong. And people are rational - I know from experience that people's perceptions of gay people as evil change radically once they actually get to know a gay person.

 

Affirmative action has minimal impact on how people live their lives. It's not like any competent white person has been forced to live off welfare because of affirmative action. But, systemically, that is what racism is doing to black people. Minimal representation in academia and the workplace will do a lot to change that.

 

As far as "white guilt" goes (and, by the way, not like it matters at all, but I'm white), it is valid. Because unlike the Xans or the Native Americans, white people are still oppressing non-white people in America. And the only reason they're able to do that is because their ancestors raped, murdered, and stole. If the oppression was over and done with, "white guilt" would be invalid. Even if you just moved from a dirt farm in Poland, where none of your ancestors even saw a black person for the past 1000 years, you're still guilty of being white. Because being white has concrete benefits that have nothing to do with your intelligence or abilities. And that isn't fair. Again, affirmative action on its face isn't fair either, but its impact on white people is very minimal whereas its potential impact for minorities is great.

 

And hotcomm, most of what you said is so vile as to defy comment, but I sincerely hope karma exists. Because you deserve to see what's like to always be denied the benefit of the doubt. Because constantly being treated like a criminal is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[GutZ]

I think the guilt should come more from the fact, if anything, that N.A. proudly represents itself as a society that treats it's citizens as equals (Your not black, white, hispanic, asian, your American or a Canadian) which isn't apparent.

[ParanoiA]

Zyncod -

 

If white guilt is valid and I'm guilty of being white then black people are guilty of being black aren't they? By your logic, they are guilty of being a person who's ancestors were oppressed. That must mean they want to be in that position. I have to question someone who willingly chooses a victim status.

 

That's stupid isn't it? So think things through a little more before you start slinging guilt and blame around with obvious anti-white bias. You apply logic to one race and not the other. Your racism is showing a little much.

 

I suggest giving "Winning The Race" a good read, amazon link below - give the description a glance over. It will open your eyes to some legitimate problems with the black race. And since it is written by a black man, you won't be able to dismiss it with thoughtless racial prejudice - you'll have to actually have logic behind your convictions. You'll also see how your precious democrats have used them and held them down for decades, using victimology and empowering racial epithets and stereotypes.

 

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000HEYVHM/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-1771214-7486525

 

I think you suffer from white guilt. To the point you feel the need to argue in their favor so as to "prove" you are not racist. You can disagree with black people without being prejudice or racist...but not if you're carrying white guilt baggage around with you.

 

And you still haven't acknowledged that everyone on this planet is guilty of prospering from the raping and killing of others by their ancestors. You just want to concentrate on the most recent. You also haven't acknowledged that every minority in every country on the globe always thinks they're being oppressed. They're the minority - of course they're going to think that. To a large degree that would be true, in that the majority gets what it wants. And that's to be expected...

[Sisyphus]

REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT!

 

Hey, maybe we shouldn't be talking in terms of what is fair, but what is beneficial. For example, why did the United States put so many resources towards rebuilding Japan after WW2? Simple. We could either have a towntrodden, resentful people that would only cause endless problems for us in the generations ahead, or we could have a powerful, loyal ally. Easy choice.

 

ANALOGOUSLY, how should we deal with a minority that started out in a far less favorable situation than the most penniless European immigrant, and was treated with gross injustice into the late 20th century? We could just start playing fair, now, and that would probably be totally ethical. (For sake of argument, let's say it is.) OR we could help them out, try to bring them up to speed to partially make up for those initial disadvantages, and thus turn a resentful, poverty and crime-stricken sub-class into full, productive members of society on equal footing with the rest of us. Now, whether things like affirmative action actually help accomplish this goal is debatable, but it might help to at least frame the problem in those terms.

[ParanoiA]

REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT!

 

Hey, maybe we shouldn't be talking in terms of what is fair, but what is beneficial. For example, why did the United States put so many resources towards rebuilding Japan after WW2? Simple. We could either have a towntrodden, resentful people that would only cause endless problems for us in the generations ahead, or we could have a powerful, loyal ally. Easy choice.

 

ANALOGOUSLY, how should we deal with a minority that started out in a far less favorable situation than the most penniless European immigrant, and was treated with gross injustice into the late 20th century? We could just start playing fair, now, and that would probably be totally ethical. (For sake of argument, let's say it is.) OR we could help them out, try to bring them up to speed to partially make up for those initial disadvantages, and thus turn a resentful, poverty and crime-stricken sub-class into full, productive members of society on equal footing with the rest of us. Now, whether things like affirmative action actually help accomplish this goal is debatable, but it might help to at least frame the problem in those terms.

 

It helps nothing to convince them they need your help. The liberal approach to this enables the victim status, the anti-intellectualism. It's also to blame for the poverty situation experienced by all races.

 

Those that do well, didn't get it by affirmative action or other government sactioned racism. It is not beneficial to create an entitlement driven class of victims. If you want folks to be productive members of society, you have to expect something out of them. You have to expect folks to do work hard and attempt to succeed despite the unfairness or unequal footing they perceive in life.

 

The fact is, they are on equal footing. But who is not going to use their victim status to their advantage? I certainly would. Like all animals, we use every available opportunity to advance, and no one is going to give up such a noble position. You can't really be blamed for anything when you have the race card in your deck, and everyone feels sorry for you and guilty for what their great grandparents did to your great grandparents.