aommaster Posted December 26, 2003 Posted December 26, 2003 Can any substance form a 4+ ion? If yes, what is it? Can any substance form a 4- ino? If yes, what is it?
aommaster Posted December 26, 2003 Author Posted December 26, 2003 How come iron and copper each form two different ions? I think iron forms 2+ and3+ while copper forms 1+ and 2+ How is this possible? I thought elements form their own ion!!!
YT2095 Posted December 26, 2003 Posted December 26, 2003 try the Ammonium ion for +4 and maybe H2PO for your -4 ion there are others, but you asked for 2
YT2095 Posted December 26, 2003 Posted December 26, 2003 aommaster said in post #2 :How come iron and copper each form two different ions? I think iron forms 2+ and3+ while copper forms 1+ and 2+ How is this possible? I thought elements form their own ion!!! it depends what they bond to, think Cation structure and what it would take to make a stable compound
vixenell Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 aommaster said in post #2 :How come iron and copper each form two different ions? I think iron forms 2+ and3+ while copper forms 1+ and 2+ How is this possible? I thought elements form their own ion!!! They're transition metals.. thats what they do. Not just iron and copper: all elements in that middle portion of the periodic table have multiple charges. It depends on what they bond to.
aommaster Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 Yeah? I really didn't know that, we haven't yet done transition metals! Thanx!!!
wolfson Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 If you look at the top of a periodic table the oxidation sates are listed, i.e. F wants to gain one, O two, N three (electrons), and Li wants to loose 1, Be loose 2 B three.
aommaster Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 yeah. We have done electronic configs, but not of the transition metal, the teacher says it is too hard (yeah right...)
Radical Edward Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 ignore the teacher and go and get some proper books.
aommaster Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 yeah. I've decided to to A level chemistry (not only to learn about the transition metals, because i enjoy it). I'm also asking the teacher about it, he gave me a table of electronic configs. COOL!
wolfson Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 All you ever want to do is create full outer "shells" i.e. look at Na it wants to loose a electron to create a full 1st shell (1st shells are happy (stable) when they have 2 electrons), so the best way would be to create a NaF compounds, as F wants to gain one electron, Al wants to loose 3 electrons so you would bond it to a elemt(s) that wants to gain 3 i.e. N.
aommaster Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 Well, that's all well and good. I understand that concept. As for the transition metals, they have difference elecronic configs, so, i need to learn them, before i can understand that.
Radical Edward Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 how do the orbitals go again? s,p,d,f.....
wolfson Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Electronic confiuration is all about orbital energy, transition elements land on the D block which can contain 10 electrons.
aommaster Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 well, all i know is that from 1 to 20, it goes as 2.8.8.2 and fills up gradually like that i dunno about the rest!
wolfson Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 [Ne].3s2.3p1 is the shorthand electronic congiguration for Al, you use Ne as it is th nearest stable element.
aommaster Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 whoa. Now im getting confused yikes. Anyways. I going now. Thanx guys. Bye. I'll follow this up tomorrow as soon as possible!
Radical Edward Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 I think it is time to shuffle through the QM to refresh my head.
wolfson Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 So the full electronic configuration for Al is 1s2, 2s2, 2p6,3s2,3p1. Just follow the groups along and by the way Al is not a transition metal it is a main group metal.
VendingMenace Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 yeah, trasition metals are kinda hard to predict -- your teacher is somewhat correct. In order to even start to accurately predict what ions trasition metals form, you need to lean a bit of what is called "group theory." However, there are some simple predictions that can be made for a very few of the trasition metals. But over all, in order to predict charge on a metal, you need to know coordination number, coordination environment, feild splitting of the orbitals, ect. It is quite a mess But it is very cool.
aommaster Posted January 8, 2004 Author Posted January 8, 2004 thanx. I think ill wait till A level to do it It looks complex to me!
YT2095 Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 in Wolfsons reply #20, he mentions 2p6, well 2p6 is known as Neon or Ne. that may help understanding his post #17. [Ne].3s2.3p1 is must faster and just as understandable as, 1s2, 2s2,2p1,2p2,2p3,2p4,2p5,2p6,3s1,3s2,3p1 (quite a mouthfull eh!) so instead of doing every single period, we just look down the last group Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Rn (we don`t really use He as that`s the 1`st to appear anyway) and start from there, because we don`t need to know ALL the stuff that came before it it may help you to get a spare periodic table and write the Blocks and Shells down etc,,, btw, there has been a new element discovered! called BOo, they`re thinking of naming it the Element of Surprise
aommaster Posted January 8, 2004 Author Posted January 8, 2004 what element number is BOo by the way? I have only learn the elec. configs to element 20 (calcium) in the order 2.8.8.2 That's all i know about this!
YT2095 Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 BOo is a joke dude BOO, element of surprise not to worry )
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