Psychokinesis - discussion

[spiritnl]

There is no string. I don't think you wasted time on this discussion either.

[Glider]

Not taking anything to personal over here. I respect everyone's opinions. And yes, I realise the burden of proof is right on my shoulders, because I started this discussion.

 

If someone is interested, here is some levitation of a friend:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=x1MQJesgJP0

If that was levitation, why does the object swing like a pendulum? Could it be that the object is still subject to gravity but is being supported by a physical attachment to one point (that rather obvious bit that sticks up)?

 

Who are you expecting to accept this as evidence?

[insane_alien]

yeah thats definitely some pendular motion we're seeing there. only reason the string isn't visible is because of the low lighting and the crappy resolution of youtube.

[CPL.Luke]

hmm alright someone debunk this for me I clicked on it while watching the other video, whatever the guy did he did i very well.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1DgJxePCh0o&mode=related&search=

 

and this one

 

 

the first guy has the candor of a magician, and I think you could fake his stunt with a string or two, but the second one I'm not sure about, and there were at least two more on there of similar quality in terms of the difficulty in debunking them.

[Glider]

Yes, he did. Same thing, only more complex. The thing is still obviously suspended from one point. Its rather jerky motion and slight tendency to swing tells you that.

 

I'd like to see him get the object rotate on three axes. If he can make it float about in the air using his magic, it should should be a doddle.

[spiritnl]

If that was levitation, why does the object swing like a pendulum? Could it be that the object is still subject to gravity but is being supported by a physical attachment to one point (that rather obvious bit that sticks up)?

 

Who are you expecting to accept this as evidence?

 

Where did I say I expect people to accept this as evidence. I mearly said: If you are interested, take a look. And yes, the object swings, but there are no strings.

 

hmm alright someone debunk this for me I clicked on it while watching the other video, whatever the guy did he did i very well.

 

Why do you want videos debunked?

[Mokele]

And yes, the object swings, but there are no strings.

 

Why do you think that? Because you can't see it on your monitor?

 

Fishing line is a staple of the special effects industry, or was in the days before CGI. Massively strong, but in the right lighting, it's invisible on video. They've been using it since they've been making claymation dinosaurs fight.

 

Why do you want videos debunked?

 

Because they're only evidence if they can't be debunked. If there's a more plausible explanation, it must be accepted.

 

but the second one I'm not sure about, and there were at least two more on there of similar quality in terms of the difficulty in debunking them.

 

What's the temperature of the bottom glass? If the wax the needle was stuck in, or the bottom glass itself, was hot or warm, the air close to it would rise, even if inside a contained area, spinning the pinwheel.

 

Mokele

[spiritnl]

What's the temperature of the bottom glass? If the wax the needle was stuck in' date=' or the bottom glass itself, was hot or warm, the air close to it would rise, even if inside a contained area, spinning the pinwheel.

[/quote']

 

That still doesn't explain why the Psiwheel starts spinning when he wants to.

[CPL.Luke]

spritinil you have to take into account that he can edit the film to make it look as if it stopped spinning immediatly after he wanted to end it.

 

 

good spot mokele

 

 

also I want them debunked because the odds are that they are bogus, and if they aren't I want to have confidence that its not just my own bias/ eyes being tricked etc.

[spiritnl]

Ok, let's say someone is capable of levitating a little paper ball, nothing more. He only has a camera and the the only person in the room is the person levitating the little ball of paper. Whát would you guys want to see to make the video convincing?

[CPL.Luke]

a high resolution video. in some instances some foam packing to make sure there isn't any air making anything move.

 

 

even then I wouldn't necessarily be convinced as someone can easily edit a video on a computer now (I know I've done it before, it took all of about 15 minutes, including the learning curve)

 

 

the fact is that it would be very difficult for me to believe anything that didn't either happen when I was present, or in the presence of several sketics/ magicians in a controlled enviroment.

[spiritnl]

a high resolution video. in some instances some foam packing to make sure there isn't any air making anything move.

even then I wouldn't necessarily be convinced as someone can easily edit a video on a computer now (I know I've done it before, it took all of about 15 minutes, including the learning curve).

 

How about some mirrors near it in different angles, (so one can view the paper ball in the mirrors from different angles, and see the little paper ball in one mirror via another mirror) wouldn't that exlude video-editing?

[insane_alien]

How about some mirrors near it in different angles, (so one can view the paper ball in the mirrors from different angles, and see the little paper ball in one mirror via another mirror) wouldn't that exlude video-editing?

 

nope, just slightly extend the time needed to edit the video.

[spiritnl]

nope, just slightly extend the time needed to edit the video.

 

I find it hard to believe, that good quality videos can be edited that fast and still look real.

 

How about doing the OK sign with your hands, and make the levitating paper ball pas through?

[Mokele]

How about taking a zip-lock bag, putting the paper in, inflating it, sealing it, and then moving the paper? As long as we can see the bag is plumped with inflated air, we know there's no strings.

 

Ruling out other methods is tougher, especially with the level of high-quality video editing done nowadays. Mirrors help.

 

Another important feature would be setting; some sort of featureless room, where we can see *everything* to ensure there's no funny-business going on just outside the camera's view or under the table.

 

This is why Randi is so good at this; he's a magician, and makes a living fooling people, so he knows all the dirty tricks people can try.

 

Rotating the paper ball would also help, around all 3 axes. Another good thing would be something you cannot influence. Buy some sort of kid's toy at a store that has plastic balls sealed in some sort of container. Keep it sealed in the box and open it on camera. Expensive, but it rules out before-scene tinkering with the apparatus.

 

Also, have a standardized method to determine when you're trying (like denoting a test period by saying 'I'm starting now' & 'I'm stopping now'), and formally record both successes and failures. It's proven that humans 'remember the hits and forget the misses', which is actually a big part of the gambling industry. Keep records. To give you an idea, I have over 400 pages of records and 16 hours of video for the project I'm writing up now. Extensive, detailed, and omit nothing. If you failed, write it down, no excuses.

 

In the end, though, you'll need some sort of expert witness.

 

Mokele

[Sadhu]

What percentage of our brain matter do we actually use? I would never doubt our capabilities.

[MolotovCocktail]

We use a large percentage of our brain on a daily basis. Using more would result in a seizure, not psychic powers. You are probably referring to the mistaken notion that we only use 10% of our brain, when in reality about 10% of the neurons fire at any given time.

[iglak]

Oh, please, what a crappy dodge. Is there any reason why not? It would be a *huge* survival advantage, and *any* advantage would rapidly be selected for and spread through the population.

WITCH!! BURN IN HELL!!!!

 

also, if we assume psychic ability is largely due to mental ability and control of Psi, humans are the only capable animals. that's just a given considering we're the only animals capable of understanding and controlling complex systems.

 

Oh, and by the way, anything with 'psion' that isn't science fiction automatically has no credibility with me

biases are anti-productive and fallacious in science.

however, as long as you only say "there's no supporting evidence currently available to me" and " i suspect you", there's nothing wrong.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=P2Wy9_9RJ8M

 

And of a friend:

 

http://www.psistudies.net/_media/Las...19nov-2006.JPG

that's pretty cool, although i'm not inclined to believe the floating paper. have you observed him doing this?

 

hey whaddya know i can do the same thing to a can as well, just involves the disassembly of a speaker and the right positioning of a magnet.

 

lifting paper is even easier as you can use static charge to do it. totally not PK though.

i didn't even realize paper could easily be lifted like that with static charge.

this actually makes me believe that it's real. i can prove to you that electricity can be controlled and generated by humans, most easily through hands. i've observed and participated in the required experiment numerous times. whenever someone who can sense and control chi focuses it inbetween his/her hands, and someone who cannot sense chi puts his/her hand in the middle of the chi user's hands, the person who cannot sense chi always reports tingly electrical feelings.

 

i'll perform some experiments and report back in 10 days when i have access to a voltometer and an electromagnetic field sersor.

 

the moving can can also be explained with electricity creating a magnetic force inbetween the hands (in the center). however, there's also another explanation for the rolling can. that is, chi exists largely as pressure waves within and without the body. these pressure waves can be controlled to create greater pressure at a desired location, such as inbetween the hands. theoretically, the air could be manipulated with pressure waves to provide a lower pressure for the can to be pushed into by the higher pressure on the other side. although, i have no recording equipment that could sense minute variations in pressure like that, so i can't perform any experiments relating to that specifically.

 

Oh I will, give me some time here. I am currently experimenting with a former science teacher.

oo! please tell me how.

 

would you mind giving a list of your planned experiments so far?

also, a list of your psychokinetic accomplishments so far would be useful.

 

i've never tried to do anything psychokinetic, although i have done a bit with something i've started calling psychic compasing. i fan out my fingers, and wait until i feel a psychic pull on my fingers. the direction of the pull is the direction of the thing i'm looking for.

although i haven't done any heavy experiments with this yet. the biggest thing i did was feel which elevator would stop on my floor in my direction 10 times out of 10 (at a convention during heavy elevator traffic times).

 

if you have any experiments or accomplishments i can try to replicate/duplicate, i can get my friend to help me (he's much better at sensing and controlling chi than i am, although he also hasn't tried anything on the psychic level yet).

 

also, i recently heard that by willing a die to land on a certain number, the side with that number becomes heavier, and will be more likely to point downwhen it stops rolling. i have yet to experiment with this though. but the implication is that if you have access to a precice scale, you might be able to make something heavier as well.

 

at the same time, i suggest you look into chi and taoism. taoists believe there are 8 chi bodies. the 5th is the psychic. the 1st is the physical. by meditating and learning how to sense and control the lower bodies, you are better able to feel and control the upper bodies.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha

 

That should tell you about the "research" conducted by scientists about "psi."

HAhahahahhaha! that's awesome!

 

If you're a scientist, then use the scientific method to devise a few good, solid, well-documented experiments to test your psychic abilities, and get some outside scientists to watch you as you do it.

why would an outside scientist watch? they, like you, wouldn't give it a second thought.

no, well documented experiments, video taped and broadcast on youtube, and published on a blog to gain publicity, are the first step. only then will a scientist be willing to stand there and watch.

 

Excellent use of probability right here: background radiation is essentially random.

hence why repeat experiments are important.

if the experiment is repeated enough times, with controls placed nearby, things like background radiation can be ruled out.

however, to demonstrate that the result happens the moment the practitioner uses psi, a video is practically necessary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

after reading through all of the posts, i really want to start self-teaching all of the psychokinesis stuff now. i'm getting excited >

expect good evidence from me in a year (i'm just setting a deadline). afterwards, i will try to get as many scientists as i can to observe.

 

but, i'm a long way away from all of that right now.

[Callipygous]

why would an outside scientist watch? they, like you, wouldn't give it a second thought.

no, well documented experiments, video taped and broadcast on youtube, and published on a blog to gain publicity, are the first step. only then will a scientist be willing to stand there and watch.

 

given the nature of the videos so far, that is the first step to ridicule. if someone actually puts together something reasonable that might be the first step. nobody seems capable of putting together something reasonable, which is why we recommend having a witness there.

 

however, to demonstrate that the result happens the moment the practitioner uses psi, a video is practically necessary.

 

a video leaves the posibility that the practitioner edited it to make it seem as though thats when he started using psi.

[Kailassa]

The mind would only have to exert force to move an object if the object has mass. Perhaps mass itself is the illusion and the whole universe is mind, in which case "mind over matter" no longer has any meaning. Just as our minds appear to use a holographic method of memory storage, the whole universe could be a mental hologram, powered by some "divine" mind, or perhaps powered by a joining of all our minds, with individuality itself being an illusion.

 

What force is exerted on one of a pair of separated entangled electrons by the other? We know it happens, but the theory explaining why does not sit too comfortably with the old notions of our nicely predictable physical world.

 

Not long ago instantaneous communication over vast distances was a laughable phenomenon of science fiction. Now it is a distinct possibility that is being worked on.

 

On an unrelated note, at Scienceworks, Melbourne, I found a display that had various materials to be touched, and gave the temperature of each one. The aim was to show that, although various materials such as metal and carpet felt warmer of colder than each other, they were actually all the same temperature. Anyway, this gave me a chance to try something. I'm a masseuse, and have learned to warm my hands just by thinking "warm hands", but medical people I've spoken to say that's impossible. Anyway, I found I could make the temperature of the metal plate increase much more that any of my friends or family could.

 

I mention this because it's testable by other people, and I'm confident there will be others who can do the same.

[Edtharan]

I'm a masseuse, and have learned to warm my hands just by thinking "warm hands", but medical people I've spoken to say that's impossible.

As far as I know, your hands can get warmer or cooler because the blood flow can be altered. If this was not the case, your hands would not be able to keep a constant temperature and would fluctuate depending on the temperature outside (it does a bit, bit not to the extent that it would if we did not have the ability to heat and cool our own hands).

 

Humans are mammals and mammals are endothermic (commonly called warm blooded). It means that we have the ability to control our body temperature.

 

So I would not be surprised that we can't change the temperature of our hands.

[GutZ]

Yeah I can make my hands warmer, I use it to cure stomach pains. I don't know what's it's doing but I can say with confidence that 95% of the time I can after 5-10 mins eliminate all pain. I am sure there is an explaination, just you know there a tons of thing that really can't be given the time to be studied and explained, there are more important things to study....

[Kailassa]

Yeah I can make my hands warmer, I use it to cure stomach pains. I don't know what's it's doing but I can say with confidence that 95% of the time I can after 5-10 mins eliminate all pain. I am sure there is an explanation, just you know there a tons of thing that really can't be given the time to be studied and explained, there are more important things to study....

If you had shares in a pharmaceutical company and they could produce a drug that 95% of the time could cure stomach pain you would think it well worth a few years of study and a few million dollars in investments.

 

I do know what you're talking about, and I'm sure that if more people could take this stuff seriously, a lot more would find that they can use touch in a helpful way. The trouble with convincing people though often comes from people who bignote themselves pretending to have healing abilities, while the people I've met who actually do are more likely to be quiet sceptics who have trouble believing in it themselves.