magnetic Argument

[rukidding]

In discussions I have had lately a curious thing came up. We were discussing the point of when an electromagnet releases its magnetic grip on another electromagnet. To illustrate this consider this scenario.

 

Using two identical electromagnets, EM A is running at 100 watts. EM B is not active, so A is attached to the core of B with the attraction associated with 100 watts. When you increase the power of EM B to 60 watts (60 is a guess of halfway plus 10 for induction), it releases the magnetic grip (just enough to release the grip, not enough to cause a force in opposition) and we move it away 3 centimeters. Then, when the power is removed from B; A is attracted to the core of B with the force associated with the attraction of a 100 watt EM to the target. Then we again increase the power of B to 60 watts for the release.

 

It would seem that every time we do this, we have a difference of 40 watts.

 

The discussion continued to make a device using a permanent magnet in place of EM A, so as to gain those 40 watts from the intrinsic properties of the permanent magnet.

 

It was postulated that this was not about breaking any laws of thermodynamics, but rather using differences of time and space.

 

I made drawings of such a device and tried to explain it best I could. In this document I take the position that it will work only as a theoretical position of argument, not that I believe it as a fact.

 

Of course an over unity electromagnetic device is impossible. I have no reason to think this device will work; I expect it to fail; but I'm willing to investigate it anyway because it is interesting.

 

Please, I only take the position that this will work for the sake of argument and my personal education. Please, I understand about the laws of thermodynamics.

 

http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/magforce.htm

 

I’m new here, so if this should be moved to a more appropriate place, please do so.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Rocket Man]

you're not actually creating energy here, and never will.

you'll have a wattage spike in magnet a as b appraoches.

if you have a charged coil, (super conducting to match ideal circumstances)

and allow a lump of iron to move towards it the iron gains kinetic energy. the energy you can take back from the magnetic feild in the coil will drop.

now if you then pull the lump of iron away again, you apply a force over a distance thus introcdcing energy into the system. that energy can then be extracted from the coil itself.

 

so really, you need to think about where the energy comes from, in this case, it's magnet a.

[rukidding]

you're not actually creating energy here, and never will.

 

Yes I understand this. I am here to learn about this and my position is not to challenge the laws of thermodynamics, but to understand what's going on.

 

 

you'll have a wattage spike in magnet a as b appraoches.

 

Is it true that if the coil of the curcuit of the electromagnet is cut just before this happens, then there would be no spike in wattage, it has to be a closed curcuit, right?

 

 

if you have a charged coil, (super conducting to match ideal circumstances) and allow a lump of iron to move towards it the iron gains kinetic energy. the energy you can take back from the magnetic feild in the coil will drop.

 

In the device at that website, I use a permanent magnet in place of magnet A. On the attraction phase of movement it is the permanent magnet A being attracted to the non magnetized core of the electromagnet B. When this happens, electronics cut the curcuit of the electromagnet B. If the coil of an electromagnet is cut, there would be no induction in the coil because it is not a closed curcuit, right? The motive force being obtained is the permanent magnet being drawn to the non magnetized core of the open curcuit electromagnet.

 

 

now if you then pull the lump of iron away again, you apply a force over a distance thus introcdcing energy into the system. that energy can then be extracted from the coil itself.

 

so really, you need to think about where the energy comes from, in this case, it's magnet a.

 

Yes, this is where I want the energy to come from, A, it is a permanent magnet.

 

Thanks for your time Rocket Man

[Rocket Man]

hmm, you can't draw energy from a permanent magnet.

 

the wattage spike in magnet a is due to b being a non polar ferrous object.

 

if magnet a is permanent and magnet b is a non-ferrous coil, when magnet b turns on to attract to magnet a, the wattage spike will be in magnet b as it moves.

it's essentially the same as the first scenario but a and b are swapped.

one point i'd like to make is that wattage where inductive loads and motion are concerned are rarely constant, you'll have current induced in one, energy taken out of another, so you really need to draw distinctions between permanent magnets and electromagnets even though the mechanics behind them are the same.

the only time you can use them interchangably is when you have a current loop with no external power source, ie: a loop of super conducting material with a current already present.