FrankM Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 The URL that pointed to snake sensitivity to earthquake precursors came across on a "forum" that examines precursor phenomena. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6215991.stm One of the phenomena that is being produced by earthquake precursors are in-ground electrical currents, they being produced at or near an epi-center and radiating outward therefrom. My questions is, "have snakes been measured for sensitivity to electric potentials"? These ground huggers are in intimate contact with the earth's surface. Keep in mind that a small current across a high resistance produces a substantial electric potential. They know cows are sensitive to in-ground currents and their "potential" sensitivity has been measured. http://www.cowtime.com.au/technical/QuickNotes/Quick_Note_6_1.pdf I am hoping Mokele could answer the question about snakes.
Mokele Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 It's unlikely they'd be able to sense anything electrical or magnetic. Their sensation of earthquakes is mostly due to their inner ear (they lack an external opening). However, they don't have anything for detecting electrical stimuli or magnetic fields. Mokele
FrankM Posted January 11, 2007 Author Posted January 11, 2007 Their sensation of earthquakes is mostly due to their inner ear (they lack an external opening). The bbc article stated that snakes are detecting something from earthquakes well before there is any measured seismic activity. The eventual measured seismic action has vibration frequencies well below the measured range of snakes auditory/vibration sensitivity. Unusual snake activity has been observed all over the world preceding earthquakes. From The MIT Press Classics Series: When the Snakes Awake Animals and Earthquake Prediction Helmut Tributsch http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=5093&ttype=2 The above book was mentioned several times in the "earthquakeprediction.pdf" article below. http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/earthquakeprediction.pdf However, they don't have anything for detecting electrical stimuli or magnetic fields. I did not know snakes could not be electrically shocked. Have you actually tested snakes to determine they do not feel an electric current? What is the impedance of a snake?
Mokele Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 The bbc article stated that snakes are detecting something from earthquakes well before there is any measured seismic activity. The eventual measured seismic action has vibration frequencies well below the measured range of snakes auditory/vibration sensitivity. Unusual snake activity has been observed all over the world preceding earthquakes. IMHO, that means the the most likely result is we've mis-measured their hearing capacity and they can detect things before our sesmic instruments can. I did not know snakes could not be electrically shocked. Have you actually tested snakes to determine they do not feel an electric current? No, no, I think you misunderstood. Snakes can be shocked, but they don't have special electroreceptive organs that allow them to sense ambient electric fields like sharks do. Basically, sharks can find buried fish by electrically sensing the fish's heartbeat, and knifefish can communicate using pulses of electrciity, but snakes have no such sensory ability. Mokele
FrankM Posted January 14, 2007 Author Posted January 14, 2007 However, they don't have anything for detecting electrical stimuli or magnetic fields. I don't know anything about snakes, I assumed from your statement they couldn't detect any electrical stimuli, even directly. Snakes can be shocked, but they don't have special electroreceptive organs that allow them to sense ambient electric fields like sharks do. Can you cite the reports that have confirmed the above inability in snakes? I am making this inquiry to inform members of a forum that deals with earthquake precursors and they are curious "why" snakes are reacting before any conventional seismic instruments detect anything. The only current tests I have been able to find are those that measure a snakes sensitivity to infrared. The last comprehensive tests I could find on snakes hearing/vibration sensitivity were conducted more than 30 years ago. Instrumentation has improved by several magnitudes since that time. IMHO, that means the the most likely result is we've mis-measured their hearing capacity and they can detect things before our sesmic instruments can. Are you implying they can detect things beyond the dynamic range of seismic instruments or things that are well below their sensitivities? The Chinese were observing violent reactions in snakes, what could cause them to react that way? I still need to know the impedance of snakes.
Mokele Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 I don't know anything about snakes, I assumed from your statement they couldn't detect any electrical stimuli, even directly. Well, being shocked is really sensory except in that you're percieving the damage done and muscle spasms, etc. There's no actual transducer, no cell that converts electrical or magnetic stimuli into nerve impulses, in snakes that we know of. Can you cite the reports that have confirmed the above inability in snakes? I am making this inquiry to inform members of a forum that deals with earthquake precursors and they are curious "why" snakes are reacting before any conventional seismic instruments detect anything. It's never really possible to confirm an inability. We do know they have no observed sense organs for electroreception, and display no abnormal behaviors when near electrical devices. In terms of the latter, sharks will react to live insulated wires or other electrical devices in their environment (and have been known to bite undersea cables) but snakes display no reactions to electrical equipment beyond that due to warmth. The measuerments on snake hearing are indeed old, but that's because, well, they aren't interesting most of the time. Hearing doesn't seem to be an important sense for snakes like vision or smell, so nobody's bothered re-doing the studies. Are you implying they can detect things beyond the dynamic range of seismic instruments or things that are well below their sensitivities? The former; perhaps their sensitivities extend to areas our instruments lack or just don't look for. I still need to know the impedance of snakes. As in their electrical properties? It'll be the same as any other animal, since they're made of the same stuff (meat, bones, water). Mokele
FrankM Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Mokele One can make the assumption that the snake reaction the Chinese are observing is a "muscle spasm" response. Other than a jab with a sharp object or contact with a hot poker, I can think of only one other type of stimulus that can cause such a reaction in humans and animals, an electric potential. Apparently the snakes are not being damaged by the stimulus that causes their reaction, as they go about their regular snake activities once it has passed. As in their electrical properties? It'll be the same as any other animal, since they're made of the same stuff (meat, bones, water). I would agree that internally the impedance/resistivity would be close to that of other animals, the main conductive medium being the water content of the tissue. However, before the electrical current gets to the interior it has to pass through the resistance of the snakes skin. http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/techniques/phasegallery/snakeskin.html Contrary to popular belief snake skin is dry, not slimy (with the exception of newly born or hatched snakes). Snake skin consists entirely of overlapping scales, specialized folds of skin, that provide protection from the environment and from predators. The scales are composed primarily of keratin, but also contain waxes that help to prevent water loss through the skin. The ventral scales on the snakes belly will not be as conductive as the internal tissue, thus its electrical resistivity will much higher. I would expect a snake to have a much higher "effective" resistance because of their scales. Ideally, one should be able to test snakes to find out exactly when they feel an electric current that causes them to react. I have been unable to find any research reports in this area. Before doing electrical stimulus tests on snakes you need to know their impedance/resistivity. We react differently to dc and ac potentials, and so should animals and snakes.
weknowthewor Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 I guess not only snakes but other animals are sensitive to earthquake precursors..
FrankM Posted January 17, 2007 Author Posted January 17, 2007 The classic work on animal responses before and during earthquakes is by Helmut Tributsch, "When the Snakes Awake: Animals and Earthquake Prediction" http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/author/default.asp?aid=2223 This was mentioned in the third post to this topic.
Mokele Posted January 20, 2007 Posted January 20, 2007 Mokele One can make the assumption that the snake reaction the Chinese are observing is a "muscle spasm" response. I disagree; the reports I've heard have mentioned frantic movement to escape, as well as some sort of head-bobbing, neither of which can be produced by uncoordinated spasms. When a snake spasms, it "kinks" into a series of very short, low-amplitude static waves that do not move down the snake as they do in lateral undulation. More extreme spasms may cause the snake to bend upwards across their entire body in a writhing manner, which is why dead snakes are almost always belly up. The ventral scales on the snakes belly will not be as conductive as the internal tissue, thus its electrical resistivity will much higher. I would expect a snake to have a much higher "effective" resistance because of their scales. I don't think it'll be substantially higher, especially when you take into account other animals may have thicker skins. Most of skin in either a network of collagen fibers or keratin. A mammal skin has a lot of collagen and alpha keratin. Reptiles have more or less the same, but with a *very* thin layer of beta keratin. This will alter skin resistance, true, but not as much as just having a thicker skin will (and skin thickness can vary tremendously in the animal kingdom). Ideally, one should be able to test snakes to find out exactly when they feel an electric current that causes them to react. I have been unable to find any research reports in this area. Before doing electrical stimulus tests on snakes you need to know their impedance/resistivity. We react differently to dc and ac potentials, and so should animals and snakes. Why? There's no point to such an experiment. We know what happens when they have a seizure/spasm, regardless of what induces it, and it doesn't match the behavior you describe. I've already given you a perfectly plausible explanation for snakes' reaction (hearing on a very low frequency), why the obsession with electrcity? Also, if it is electricity, why wouldn't other species, like salamanders, respond to it? Or the numerous electro-sensitive freshwater fish? Mokele
FrankM Posted January 21, 2007 Author Posted January 21, 2007 One can make the assumption that the snake reaction the Chinese are observing is a "muscle spasm" response. I disagree; the reports I've heard have mentioned frantic movement to escape, as well as some sort of head-bobbing, neither of which can be produced by uncoordinated spasms. The only report I have read is in the cited BBC article. Please cite the sources for the reports you have heard so that I and other members of this forum can examine the material. The ventral scales on the snakes belly will not be as conductive as the internal tissue, thus its electrical resistivity will much higher. I would expect a snake to have a much higher "effective" resistance because of their scales. The report I cited about snakeskin indicated the fibers contain a wax which reduces moisture loss. Moisture is the primary medium which determines "resistance", other factors being much smaller. I don't think it'll be substantially higher, especially when you take into account other animals may have thicker skins. Can you provide reference to those reports that "thicker skin" results in a higher electrical resistivity? I am interested in measured values as are the members of the technical forum that have read the same report about snakes in China. Ideally, one should be able to test snakes to find out exactly when they feel an electric current that causes them to react. I have been unable to find any research reports in this area. Before doing electrical stimulus tests on snakes you need to know their impedance/resistivity. We react differently to dc and ac potentials, and so should animals and snakes. Why? There's no point to such an experiment. We know what happens when they have a seizure/spasm, regardless of what induces it, and it doesn't match the behavior you describe. I am not a herpetologist, thus I considered "spasm" being an appropriate reaction. You state the snakes reaction is not a muscular spasm. I am not describing the behavior, I am trying to interpret what was stated in the BBC article. I have not seen a video of the snakes reaction. Are you aware of any videos that show the same reaction as that stated in the BBC article? I do think it is important to know what causes a reaction, even a "seizure/spasm". I've already given you a perfectly plausible explanation for snakes' reaction (hearing on a very low frequency), why the obsession with electrcity? Seismologists use instruments that cover the audio spectrum from near DC to well above the hearing of snakes and man. Seismologists have been "listening" to seismic vibrations for many decades and if this were the medium which causes snakes and other animals to react well before an actual earthquake occurs they would have known this a long time ago. Seismologists have not been monitoring the "electrical nature" of seismic action, this being done by many agencies outside of the "traditional" seismology organizations. Guess who gets all the funding for earthquake studies? Also, if it is electricity, why wouldn't other species, like salamanders, respond to it? Or the numerous electro-sensitive freshwater fish? It could be that they do, but who is watching and reporting if they do or do not?" The biology-seismology communities has discounted that animals or any other species react well before an earthquake, so I doubt if we will find any "academic" reports where various species react or do not react to the "currents" created by seismic action. The material in the book by Helmut Tributsch is ignored by traditional biologists and seismologists. It is the same old story, if a "biologist or seismologist" did not observe and record it, it didn't happen. You can get Helmut Tributsch's technical qualification here- http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/ag/tributsch/ A Stanford Professor, who is doing "non-traditional" (electric currents) seismology research, has informed Helmut Tributsch about the research related to seismic produced electric currents. I find it somewhat disconcerting that the "biology/herpetology communities" know so little about the bioelectric characteristics of snakes. It seems them are satisifed with "opinions" rather than "measured" or otherwise researched results.
Mokele Posted January 22, 2007 Posted January 22, 2007 The only report I have read is in the cited BBC article. Please cite the sources for the reports you have heard so that I and other members of this forum can examine the material. From the same BBC article: "When an earthquake is about to occur, snakes will move out of their nests, even in the cold of winter. If the earthquake is a big one, the snakes will even smash into walls while trying to escape,' he told the newspaper." That's describing coherent, albeit undirected and somewhat frantic locomotion, *not* siezures. There's no possible way to confuse the two. The report I cited about snakeskin indicated the fibers contain a wax which reduces moisture loss. Moisture is the primary medium which determines "resistance", other factors being much smaller. The waxes are a relatively minor part of the overall composition, and mammal skin is dry too. Can you provide reference to those reports that "thicker skin" results in a higher electrical resistivity? I am interested in measured values as are the members of the technical forum that have read the same report about snakes in China. Sadly, no, but it stands to reason it would. From personal experience dissecting things, I know skin thickness varies between animals, and snake skin is actually relatively thin. I am not a herpetologist, thus I considered "spasm" being an appropriate reaction. You state the snakes reaction is not a muscular spasm. I am not describing the behavior, I am trying to interpret what was stated in the BBC article. I have not seen a video of the snakes reaction. Are you aware of any videos that show the same reaction as that stated in the BBC article? I do think it is important to know what causes a reaction, even a "seizure/spasm". As I said earlier, there's no possible way to confuse a spasm/seizure with locomotion, and the report clearly describes movement (spasming snakes don't move substantially, but rather just writhe in place). Seismologists use instruments that cover the audio spectrum from near DC to well above the hearing of snakes and man. Seismologists have been "listening" to seismic vibrations for many decades and if this were the medium which causes snakes and other animals to react well before an actual earthquake occurs they would have known this a long time ago. Seismologists have not been monitoring the "electrical nature" of seismic action, this being done by many agencies outside of the "traditional" seismology organizations. Guess who gets all the funding for earthquake studies? Well, that leaves only a two options: 1) The reports of snakes responding to earthquakes are false. 2) The traditional studies missed something, possibly due to a weak signal. Since the snakes are not spasming, it can't be a current causing shock/electrocution. And since there is no evidence that snakes can detect electrical fields, that's off the table until someone does demostrate it. To be totally honest, I suspect the report that snakes can sense earthquakes may be false. It could be that they do, but who is watching and reporting if they do or do not? It's unlikely that snake movements would be noticed and not salamanders. Salamanders exist in incredibly high population densities, far more than snakes, so much so that if something stirs them up, it'll be like the ground is moving due to the number of them. Many areas can have several salamanders per square meter. The material in the book by Helmut Tributsch is ignored by traditional biologists and seismologists. It is the same old story, if a "biologist or seismologist" did not observe and record it, it didn't happen. There's good reason for that: people report all sorts of crazy shit, from alien abduction to Nessie. We can't simply take all reports at face value; we need trained observers who are more likely to spot the real issue. You can get Helmut Tributsch's technical qualification here- None of which are in biology or seismology. Why should I give him creedence? Does he have evidence, photographic or otherwise? I find it somewhat disconcerting that the "biology/herpetology communities" know so little about the bioelectric characteristics of snakes. It seems them are satisifed with "opinions" rather than "measured" or otherwise researched results. Tell you what, why don't you get off your ass and find out yourself? You think we have nothing better to do than jump up and do experiments on command? We've got our own work to do, and lots of it. Furthermore, science is not done just by randomly doing crap; Do we have a reason to suspect snakes may have interesting electrical properties? No. Do we have a reason to suspect they can detect electicity or magnetism? No. Do we have a reason to think such abilities or properties would be ecologically relevant? No. Do we have a reason to think the electrical properties of snakes will tell us anything interesting? No. Science is not about just randomly gathering data in vain hope it'll be useful someday, it's about answering questions about the natural world. There is not an infinite supply of herpetologists, so obviously there are gaps in our knowledge, some of which are huge (we have *no* studies on a very common mode of snake locomotion seen in every species). Mokele
FrankM Posted January 24, 2007 Author Posted January 24, 2007 The only report I have read is in the cited BBC article. Please cite the sources for the reports you have heard so that I and other members of this forum can examine the material.>From the same BBC article: "When an earthquake is about to occur' date=' snakes will move out of their nests, even in the cold of winter. If the earthquake is a big one, the snakes will even smash into walls while trying to escape,' he told the newspaper. That's describing coherent, albeit undirected and somewhat frantic locomotion, *not* siezures. There's no possible way to confuse the two.[/quote'] I did not use the term "seizure", I called the reaction a muscle spasm, but perhaps "reaction" would be a better term. I thought snakes hibernated in the cold of winter. What would cause snakes to suddenly come out of hibernation and go into an environment where they will freeze to death? Normally, doesn't it take a period of "warming" before a hibernating snake can move?. And since there is no evidence that snakes can detect electrical fields, that's off the table until someone does demostrate it. You keep using the term "electric fields" wherein I am suggesting that snakes can be electrically shocked when they are exposed to an electrical potential that has significant magnitude to overcome the resistance of the snakes skin. I know they can be electrically shocked and killed, as I have a picture of a dead snake that had crawled across an old style computer type circuit board and got fried. The circuit board had a quite a few points wherein the snake could have been across several different voltage potentials, but the individual(s) that replaced the board and took the picture were not particularly interested which potential level killed the snake. The subsequent short ruined the circuit board and the snake. The particular circuit board did not carry very high potentials, the highest being 42 volts and the lowest 5 volts, both dc. It would be of interest to know exactly at what potential a snake will react. Someone with a snake could lay two bare wires in an area where "their" snake traverses, connect the wires to a variable power supply (with suitable current limiting), and gradually raise the potential to observe when the snake reacts. As biological materials go, keratin has an extremely high resistance, but it is also a material that exhibits proton conduction. Well' date=' that leaves only a two options:1) The reports of snakes responding to earthquakes are false. 2) The traditional studies missed something, possibly due to a weak signal.[/quote'] Or the traditional studies are not measuring what the snakes are responding to. It is the same old story, if a "biologist or seismologist" did not observe and record it, it didn't happen. There's good reason for that: people report all sorts of crazy shit' date=' from alien abduction to Nessie. We can't simply take all reports at face value; we need trained observers who are more likely to spot the real issue. You can get Helmut Tributsch's technical qualification here- http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/ag/tributsch/ None of which are in biology or seismology. Why should I give him creedence? Does he have evidence, photographic or otherwise? Tell you what, why don't you get off your ass and find out yourself? You think we have nothing better to do than jump up and do experiments on command? We've got our own work to do, and lots of it. Furthermore, science is not done just by randomly doing crap; Do we have a reason to suspect snakes may have interesting electrical properties? No. Do we have a reason to suspect they can detect electicity or magnetism? No. Do we have a reason to think such abilities or properties would be ecologically relevant? No. Do we have a reason to think the electrical properties of snakes will tell us anything interesting? No. Since you and and others of your profession (that you consider trained observers) do not have the time to observe snakes and other animals reactions to seismic precursors, you have created a catch-22 situation wherein any observation made by another scientist will have no credence. I do not have a laboratory with the needed equipment and it would take a while to become acquainted with the procedures to perform bio-electric measurements. This is why there are forums, to find people that have the equipment and knowledge, and perhaps the curiosity, to perform measurements on something "new". The experiments should be performed with both ac and dc potentials.
Mokele Posted January 24, 2007 Posted January 24, 2007 I did not use the term "seizure", I called the reaction a muscle spasm, but perhaps "reaction" would be a better term. The problem is the difference between a reaction at a purely physiological level, such as muscles twitching due to being shocked, and a reaction in the form of motivated behavior, such as detecting an electrical potential and moving away in coherent locomotor mode. It's the difference between your leg twitching from a shock, and walking: one is just a reaction at the physiological level, one is a complex, coordinated series of muscular actions resulting in locomotion away from a detected stimulus. I thought snakes hibernated in the cold of winter. What would cause snakes to suddenly come out of hibernation and go into an environment where they will freeze to death? Normally, doesn't it take a period of "warming" before a hibernating snake can move?. Yes and no. Muscles, like all cellular processes, are dependent upon temperature. As a snake's body temperature declines, muscles react slower and generate less force, resulting in slower locomotion, but they can still actually move. They just can't move very fast. You keep using the term "electric fields" wherein I am suggesting that snakes can be electrically shocked when they are exposed to an electrical potential that has significant magnitude to overcome the resistance of the snakes skin. I use that term because shocks don't produce locomotion. Locomotion is a complex, coordinated behavior response to a stimuli. Animals sense electric fields, that's how every electroreceptor yet found in animals works. If snakes *can* sense electricity in any way, it's probably through the same mechanism. "Shocks", to any animal, regardless of whether they can sense fields or not, will produce spasms, not locomotion. Since you and and others of your profession (that you consider trained observers) do not have the time to observe snakes and other animals reactions to seismic precursors, you have created a catch-22 situation wherein any observation made by another scientist will have no credence. Not really; if it's a real phenomenon, one day an experienced observer will be at the right place at the right time. Also, what's the alternative? If we take everyone's opinion at face value, science has to accept Bigfoot and Alien Abductions. People mis-observe; the human memory is tricky, especially if we aren't familiar with the system. I do not have a laboratory with the needed equipment and it would take a while to become acquainted with the procedures to perform bio-electric measurements. This is why there are forums, to find people that have the equipment and knowledge, and perhaps the curiosity, to perform measurements on something "new". The experiments should be performed with both ac and dc potentials. No, the experiments should not be performed, and you would *never* get them approved by the lab animal welfare committee at any university. Why? Because it is unethical to torment snakes with electric shocks on the off chance that a highly-unlikely theory will be supported. Step back and look at this: 1) The original observations of this behavior even occuring are dubious. 2) One proposed mechanism has no support; we haven't detected any infrasonic waves that snakes might pick up on. 3) The other proposed mechanism also fails; spasms aren't locomotion, and there is no reason to suspect snakes can detect electricity via sensory receptors like sharks. One of these 3 must be wrong. Maybe 1 is wrong and there is nothing to explain. Maybe 2 is wrong, and something about modern seismographs is just missing the frequencies snakes hear. Or maybe 3 is wrong and snakes can detect electricity. Of these possibilities, 3 is, in my expert opinion, least likely: not only have we never seen electroreceptors on any histological examination of snake tissues, nor found nerves that may innervate undiscovered sensory receptors, but in captivity, snakes are routinely in close contact with electrical devices and yet display NO behavioral response, even to voltages far beyond what they would find in the wild. It is more likely that either seismographs are missing some very, very low frequency sound (out of range in terms of low frequency, or too low intensity to be picked up, or maybe accidentally filtered out during data processing) or the behavior was not correctly observed. Seriously, why are you so wedded to this idea that snakes are picking up something electrical? It's a neat idea, granted, but the evidence doesn't match up. Unless some new evidence arises, why bother with it, why not just chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. It's not like I've never been wrong before. It happens. Beautiful theories are often slain by ugly facts. Mokele
Norman Albers Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 The piezoelectric property of some earth components directly transduces electric stress to deformation.
Mokele Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 True, but I'm unaware of any animal using piezoelectric mechanisms to detect electricity. Mokele
Norman Albers Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Deformation = Sound . . . . . . . . . . . . .The woofer cones on my 200WATT 15" w/peizo horn speaker cabinets (for keyboard act) are blowed out, but you can stick your head into the horns, on low volume (a few volts). Granted, they are efficient for sound projection only in the treble, but we are speaking of a small crystal hooked to a metal diaphragm of 8-10 cm. On the other hand is Mother Earth with quite a large "crystal". Whatever electric fields have come through, have slightly distended rock of any piezo response.
Mokele Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Which means we're back to them hearing it again, albeit indirectly.
Norman Albers Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 I don't know exactly where your debate is, but I thought you were talking about changes preceeding measureable ones. Maybe there are some sort of slow creakings, but certainly even very long wave, frequencies of minutes or more, stretching of quake-zone rock would be somewhat transduced if it produced an electric signal (as rock does!). Electrics always have a sound component if there is peizo-response material between, and it can be DC, or arbitrarily slow. Just not for good loudspeaker design on a 15" woofer. On the other hand, consider a diaphragm 100 kilometers wide, consisting of a peizo material. Whoa.
FrankM Posted January 26, 2007 Author Posted January 26, 2007 "Shocks", to any animal, regardless of whether they can sense fields or not, will produce spasms, not locomotion. The observations and studies made on animals that were being shocked indicate they definitely "locomote" after being shocked, this in an attempt to remove themselves from where they are feeling discomfort. One of the problems I have found in the studies on dairy cows is that they know the minimum voltage/current combination that causes discomfort, but they have never directly measured the voltage/current the cows actually experienced in "dairy parlors" or in nearby fields. They have been observed acting much more agitated than when exposed to the "threshold" that triggers a reaction. Since you and and others of your profession (that you consider trained observers) do not have the time to observe snakes and other animals reactions to seismic precursors' date=' you have created a catch-22 situation wherein any observation made by another scientist will have no credence.[/quote']Not really; if it's a real phenomenon, one day an experienced observer will be at the right place at the right time. You are depending upon a coincidence that an "experienced observer" will have all the instruments with him to properly record all the conditions that existed when some type of animal reacts somewhat unusually. I doubt if an accidental observer would constantly record conditions wherein the observer did not get some immediate indicator of a causative action for the unusual behavior. The reports of odd animal behavior has preceded the main seismic event by days. We don't even know what instruments we need to measure the causative action. One of these 3 must be wrong. Maybe 1 is wrong and there is nothing to explain. Maybe 2 is wrong, and something about modern seismographs is just missing the frequencies snakes hear. Or maybe 3 is wrong and snakes can detect electricity. Let's examine #1. Helmut Tributsch is not the only one that has observed the strange animal activity before earthquakes. One of the reasons Tributsch's observations are discounted is because he espoused an earthquake mechanism that was in the process of being discredited at the time he wrote his book, the so-called creaking theory, the creatures were "hearing" it. His observations were compiled from multiple publications, and these publications covered an extended period of time. Tributsch was covering just animal reactions observed before earthquakes, but decades earlier a man named Charles Fort compiled "odd happenings", which he published in several books, that were recorded in the newspapers from events all over the world. He segregated his phenomena by what he felt were the proper categories for what was known at that time. Lo and behold, many of these same events occurred again in the "modern era", and this prompted the "enlightened scientists" of the 1930s to examine the "conditions" related to the "odd happenings" and they eventually found some of their causative mechanisms. The observations of recurring events made by unqualified observers were correct. We have not properly recorded and diagnosed the conditions that are causing aberrant animal behavior. Since you and your colleagues will not even expose snakes to controlled "electrical conditions" that might cause them to react, I do not see how you can conclude they display no behavioral responses to various types of "electrical conditions". Seriously, why are you so wedded to this idea that snakes are picking up something electrical? It's a neat idea, granted, but the evidence doesn't match up. Unless some new evidence arises, why bother with it, why not just chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. It's not like I've never been wrong before. It happens. Beautiful theories are often slain by ugly facts. Seismic actions before and during earthquakes create massive "current surges" in the earth and these are being detected by both satellite and earth-based measurement systems. Don't ask a traditional seismologist about this, especially U.S. seismologists, they refuse to accept this is happening, plus it is outside of their area of expertise. The French have a satellite up that was designed specifically to detect the electromagnetic emissions that occur during these in-earth seismic produced current surges. http://smsc.cnes.fr/DEMETER/GP_actualite.htm The in-earth precursor currents are strong enough to effect the ionosphere over the seismically active area, and major seismic events have actually reversed the polarity of the ionosphere over and beyond the immediate seismic event, completely disrupting long range communications that are dependent upon ionospheric skip. The Chinese had instruments in place and on-line before the Taiwan 1999 Chi Chi earthquake that allowed them to learn things about the in-ground currents that had not been known before. The magnetic field produced by the main seismic event current was actually measured, and it indicated a current from 500,000 to 1,000,000 amperes. The mechanism that creates the current in rock under stress has been demonstrated in laboratory tests, and it is not a piezoelectric process. The "current sheet" created by a seismic event spreads outward from the fault area and to the surface, and this helps explain some of the "strange" atmospheric visual effects seen before and during seismic events. The earth is normally negative relative to the atmosphere, but the current sheet produced by seismic action produces a short lived "positive" charged area and an opposite "negative charge" area in the atmosphere/ionosphere above it. During thunderstorms equivalent "charge reversal" events have been measured between the earth and the atmosphere. A localized or regional charge reversal is not uncommon, it was never expected that seismic events produced the same effect, from below, that are even more extensive in area and charge intensity. An earthquake and related processes can kill hundreds of thousands of humans in one event. If snakes can be tested to determine what causes their reactions before the main seismic event occurs, then we will know what instruments that can be used to detect what is causing their reaction. Knowing the "minimum" voltage, current, electric field, polarity and ac or dc combinations that cause snakes to react will allow one to establish monitoring stations with the proper instrument sets. I am not so ethically challenged that I wouldn't sacrifice a few snakes to save a few hundred thousand people. If you know what you are doing it is possible to minimize snake losses, but if one gets zapped you can have a barbecue. The snakes being monitored in China are at a snake farm, snakes being raised for food. I do have some concern about their video monitoring system, it might alter the characteristics of the "electrical environment" wherein the snakes are contained, thus possibly voiding the condition that causes the snakes to react.
Mokele Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 The observations and studies made on animals that were being shocked indicate they definitely "locomote" after being shocked, this in an attempt to remove themselves from where they are feeling discomfort. I have a tough time believing that an earthquake will generate enough of an electrical effect to shock anything, in part because, well, why don't we feel it? Plenty of humans go barefoot even today, and many more have throughout history. I'd think everyone in a village getting shocked would be noticed. One of the problems I have found in the studies on dairy cows is that they know the minimum voltage/current combination that causes discomfort, but they have never directly measured the voltage/current the cows actually experienced in "dairy parlors" or in nearby fields. Why would they expect there to be anything interesting in the field? There's no a priori reason to expect any significant electrical activity. If you think there is, go hop some fences with a multimeter and check. You are depending upon a coincidence that an "experienced observer" will have all the instruments with him to properly record all the conditions that existed when some type of animal reacts somewhat unusually. I doubt if an accidental observer would constantly record conditions wherein the observer did not get some immediate indicator of a causative action for the unusual behavior. The reports of odd animal behavior has preceded the main seismic event by days. We don't even know what instruments we need to measure the causative action. True, but an experienced observer could tell the difference between 'odd' and normal. For instance, what if you went to a rural area in British Columbia in the early spring, and found a huge mass of snakes, literally thousands, entwined in a massive, writhing ball. 5 days later, there's an earthquake. An inexperienced observer would associate the snake's behavior with the impending quake. An experienced observer would realize, however, that it was perfectly normal mating behavior for garter snakes. Part of the problem is that this isn't dogs or cows or something else habituated to human presence; snakes are a secretive group of animals who avoid humans whenever possible. This raises the issue that maybe it's not the quake disturbing them, but the observer. Unless the observe knows snakes and how they usually react, they won't be able to tell the difference between "Oh crap, there's a quake coming" and "Oh crap, there's a human here". We have not properly recorded and diagnosed the conditions that are causing aberrant animal behavior. Since you and your colleagues will not even expose snakes to controlled "electrical conditions" that might cause them to react, I do not see how you can conclude they display no behavioral responses to various types of "electrical conditions". Let me put it another way: Why am I supposed to submit snakes to painful tests when all I have to go on is anecdotal evidence. On top of that, I'll remind you that snake housing in captivity almost always involves some for of electrical heating. Snakes are routinely exposed to strong electrical fields from wires and such, and in some areas, snakes will even climb along powerlines, and only have a problem when they accidentally close a circuit and get fried. So basically, we know they don't respond to electrical fields like sharks do, because sharks will react to live cables and such, while snakes don't care. That leaves shocks, which I'm skeptical of to begin with. Maybe once electrical activity of the sort that could produce shocks is observed in conjunction with earthquakes, the experiment will be worth it, but until then, the likely benefits don't warrant the suffering the animals would undergo. If snakes can be tested to determine what causes their reactions before the main seismic event occurs, then we will know what instruments that can be used to detect what is causing their reaction. Knowing the "minimum" voltage, current, electric field, polarity and ac or dc combinations that cause snakes to react will allow one to establish monitoring stations with the proper instrument sets. I am not so ethically challenged that I wouldn't sacrifice a few snakes to save a few hundred thousand people. But you just said that we know the mechanism that generates this current, that we've observed it, and that we've measured it. So why do you need snakes? You already know the mechanism, know what to look for, and have seen it. Snakes wouldn't tell you anything of real value that you couldn't learn far, far better with simple, direct physical measurement equipment placed near an active fault line. I do have some concern about their video monitoring system, it might alter the characteristics of the "electrical environment" wherein the snakes are contained, thus possibly voiding the condition that causes the snakes to react. As I mentioned earlier, snakes cannot detect the fields from wires or electronic instruments, and display no reaction to such things, in contrast to animals that we *know* are electroreceptive, like knifefish. Why even use snakes? Get some tanks of knifefish, and run a nice big copper wire from a point embedded into the ground to the water of their tank. We know they can sense electricity (they use it to communicate), and they're far more sensitive thans snakes could ever be. Hell, small sharks aren't even that hard to raise, and they can detect the beating heart of their prey from several meters away. It just seems pointless, is all. There are better, more direct ways of answering the questions about electrical activity before and during quakes. Mokele
Norman Albers Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Y'all seem hellbent on dichotomy. Electric fields from inside the earth will be accompanied by some piezoelectric, and thus, sonic, energy.
smartypant Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 I guess not only snakes but other animals are sensitive to earthquake precursors.. Well what i think that is that this argument is on unstable grounds... I mean there is a possibility that all animals can sense earthquakes but some don't respond. There is another animal that can sense earthquakes and catastrophes and other natural disasters like earthquakes or tsunamis. I may be wrong about this because when a camel senses a sandstorm it responds by protecting itself from it but I'm not really sure what it would aainst an earthquake. As for snakes I'm sure that they must be able to feel the earths crust plates move around and make an earthquake. They will probably respond by going away. Then again I may be wrong. Remember, we're on unstable ground. Only just enough to quarrel.
FrankM Posted January 27, 2007 Author Posted January 27, 2007 Y'all seem hellbent on dichotomy. Electric fields from inside the earth will be accompanied by some piezoelectric, and thus, sonic, energy. Yes, we definitely have contradictory positions. The action that is creating the in-earth currents is not caused by piezoelectric action. http://www.scec.org/news/01news/es_abstracts/Freund.pdf An underground snake den is just a small cave and is subject to the same "physics" as being experienced in those large enough for humans to enter. http://www.nols.edu/resources/research/pdfs/lightningsafetycavers.pdf I do not know what snakes do when they are exposed to conditions wherein there could be nearby lightning strikes, but humans caught outside in such a condition are supposed to minimize their contact with the ground to reduce exposure. http://www.torro.org.uk/TORRO/research/lightning.php "If caught out in the open with no shelter nearby, move to a place of lower elevation such as a hollow or dry ditch. Crouch down (to lower your height) with both feet close together. Do not place your feet wide apart or lie flat on the ground as this will increase the difference in voltage across your body, increasing the electrical charge you may receive from radial ground currents, if lightning strikes the ground nearby. Tuck your head in and place your hands on your knees." Snakes don't have the luxury of minimizing their contact with the ground. Has anybody been in the field and had the opportunity to observe snake reactions to nearby lightning strikes?
Norman Albers Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Now I now what you are looking at from the first reference, quite exciting. They speak of the deep rock (maybe 30 km down) generating hole pairs and currents, large in the aggregate. Atmospheric changes (like over a Taiwan island) have been observed prior to quakes, and they mention a basically vertical field. I freely admit to an absence of biologic knowledge, just hoping to put in a possible connection. It's hard to think that a snake would not feel a "high field at the boundary", but I defer to your discussion. I will add, you should be careful talking of shocks and conduction. There is always a lot of electric field hereabouts, but it exists because it cannot easily bleed away. It is usually a high-impedance scenario, until, say, lightning plasma breadown. Maybe if we could suspend a giant metal screen in the ionosphere we could draw power from a grounded connection? Different discussion but part of the point here. THINK STATIC ELECTRICITY in the air.
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