Is intelligence genetically determined?

[aswokei]

I would like to have a discussion about whether or not intelligence is significantly influenced by genes. This is something I'm doing for a school project and I haven't really done any research on it yet.

 

Some people have told me that intelligence is in the genes. However, I think it's quite a silly notion. I mean, both of my parents are pretty dumb--my dad can hardly figure out how to turn his computer on! And yet, I'm very intelligent. Children get their genes from their parents. So if intelligence is in the genes like my dumb friend says, why/how could I be so much smarter than my parents?

 

I told her to answer that for me and she paused and got visibly upset. Haha... got her pretty good. What a dumb girl.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

There are two simple things I have to tell you:

 

First of all, intelligence is probably (but not definitely) determined by both genes and environment. Your upbringing has quite a bit to do with how intelligent you end up, but so do your genes (it's arguable how much).

 

Secondly, I'd suggest you be a little less arrogant about being intelligent. Computer skills hardly determine the intelligence of a person (digital immigrant vs. digital native), although your father might really be dim, and you actually are taking a rather simplistic viewpoint on this by presenting it as a false dichotomy. Genetics and heredity are not black and white; something can be influenced by genes and the environment.

[ecoli]

To add to what the Cap'n said, just because your father doesn't know how to turn a computer on, doesn't reflect his IQ in general. Consider that an artistic genius is just as intellegent as a genuis scientist, but they simply have focused in different areas.

Also, there is a difference between "natural" intellegence, and working really hard to gain knowledge that makes you intellegence... Though I don't mean to suggest that types of intellegence is thast dichotomous.

[Bluenoise]

I would like to have a discussion about whether or not intelligence is significantly influenced by genes. This is something I'm doing for a school project and I haven't really done any research on it yet.

 

Well then of course you not doing any research and not knowing anything about the topic would make anyone who disagrees with you "dumb". Like anyone not "dumb" could figure that out.

 

Some people have told me that intelligence is in the genes. However, I think it's quite a silly notion. I mean, both of my parents are pretty dumb--my dad can hardly figure out how to turn his computer on!

 

Oh yet another brilliant post. Everyone know that not having computer skills automatically qualifies someone as "dumb".

 

And yet, I'm very intelligent. Children get their genes from their parents. So if intelligence is in the genes like my dumb friend says, why/how could I be so much smarter than my parents?

 

I told her to answer that for me and she paused and got visibly upset. Haha... got her pretty good. What a dumb girl.

 

Oh definatley! Alienating your friends and family is an absolutley brilliant way to live through life. Ha those "dumb" suckers!!

 

Geeze why hadn't I thought of that. Guess I must be "dumb"

[ecoli]

Oh yet another brilliant post. Everyone know that not having computer skills automatically qualifies someone as "dumb".

Me no operate computer... me dumb!

[Bluenoise]

Anyways, now that I got that out of my system… Sorry about that maybe was a tad out of line...

 

 

I'd say that we are all born with a varying degree of "predisposition for intelligence". (Sorry for lack of a better term); Also that our experiences/actions as we live develop this intelligence.

I think most people would agree with this statement.

 

However I think where the disagreement comes in is to the degree that genes and our upbringing affect this intelligence. Also whether there are different forms of genetic potential for intelligence. Say one person being musically brilliant with little effort but extremely inept at Math with massive effort.

 

Personally I think that genetically the vast majority of people are on a fairly equal playing field. Some within that majority having a slightly easier time at excelling at certain things than others, but I’d say that being profoundly innately better at something than someone else is relatively rare.

 

I think effort, frame of mind, and background knowledge will determine how well you build your intelligence in an area far more than genetic predisposition. Though I think that this predisposition definitely exists…

 

I guess what I mean to say is the “nurture forces” that determine or intelligence in certain areas tend to vary to a far greater degree than any predisposition for intelligence that we get from our genes. Thus the nurture seems to be the limiting factor far more often than nature. Though I can imagine instances where this would reverse; say when the top people in a field are compared. (As both have likely worked their asses off to get there, and likely maxed out their potential)

[intothevoidx]

I would like to have a discussion about whether or not intelligence is significantly influenced by genes. This is something I'm doing for a school project and I haven't really done any research on it yet.

 

Some people have told me that intelligence is in the genes. However, I think it's quite a silly notion. I mean, both of my parents are pretty dumb--my dad can hardly figure out how to turn his computer on! And yet, I'm very intelligent. Children get their genes from their parents. So if intelligence is in the genes like my dumb friend says, why/how could I be so much smarter than my parents?

 

I told her to answer that for me and she paused and got visibly upset. Haha... got her pretty good. What a dumb girl.

 

Ever hear of the word narcissist?

[aswokei]

I just want to say, thanks to everybody for your well-thought out and reasoned contributions.

 

I did a little wikipedia research on IQ and got a little angry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iq#Influences_of_genetics_and_environment

 

Now don't get me wrong. I am a pretty damn smart guy. I once took an online IQ test (I think it was called Tickle) and got a score of 133. While technically that's not genius, it does put me up near the 98th percentile. And honestly, I think the test was a little pessimistic with the results. After all, I'm pretty sure I'm a genius.

 

However, I'm not really trained and educated in this IQ stuff. So I was looking at the wikipedia link and was looking at the data that researchers and experts culled together on tables. It says that the scores of people who take IQ tests twice tend to correlate by about .87, on average, whereas the scores of identical twins tend to correlate by .86. Since identical twins have the same genes (they are nature's clones) couldn't that be understood as genes determining about 86% of the IQ?

 

That can't be! The idea that intelligence is genetically determined offends me. Those scientists... psychometricians? Should all be shot for blasphemy. What do you think? Am I right?

[ecoli]

I just want to say, thanks to everybody for your well-thought out and reasoned contributions.

 

I did a little wikipedia research on IQ and got a little angry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iq#Influences_of_genetics_and_environment

 

Now don't get me wrong. I am a pretty damn smart guy. I once took an online IQ test (I think it was called Tickle) and got a score of 133. While technically that's not genius, it does put me up near the 98th percentile. And honestly, I think the test was a little pessimistic with the results. After all, I'm pretty sure I'm a genius.

 

Online IQ tests are about as accurate as a blind archer facing away from the target. They don't mean anything.

 

And IQ is a meaningless quality compared to such things as modesty and respect. Which, if I were you, I'd be far more worried about.

 

 

That can't be! The idea that intelligence is genetically determined offends me. Those scientists... psychometricians? Should all be shot for blasphemy. What do you think? Am I right?

 

They should be shot because they accurately reported the findings of a rigorous scientific investigation? You don't handle bad news well, do you?

 

And anyway, what does your IQ matter if nobody has any respect for you. I don't usually like to judge people based off of a couple of posts, but you sound rather arrogant.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

A point about IQ tests: online ones have placed me at anywhere from 126 to 182. The only written one I have taken placed me at 140.

 

I don't trust any of them.

[aswokei]

But what does that mean for you guys?

 

If identical twins score more or less identically on IQ tests (identical twins are nature's clones) like the stupid scientists say, what would that mean? How do you guys interpret that?

 

It doesn't really make sense to me, which is saying a lot because I am very intelligent--probably a genius--at least in my opinion.

[GutZ]

 

Thats interpreted as everyone else has been suggesting, enviroment & genetics. An IQ doesn't really mean much if you look at intelligence from a broad view point.

 

I've gotten some random IQ scores 80, 102, 128, 135, 142,...0

 

Though I would say I'd be rather impressed with someone who scores 180+ average.

[Bluenoise]

But what does that mean for you guys?

 

If identical twins score more or less identically on IQ tests (identical twins are nature's clones) like the stupid scientists say, what would that mean? How do you guys interpret that?

 

It doesn't really make sense to me, which is saying a lot because I am very intelligent--probably a genius--at least in my opinion.

 

Are you for real?

 

Seriously I'm having a hard time believing this isn't some sort of joke.

[1veedo]

Say one person being musically brilliant with little effort but extremely inept at Math with massive effort.

Just an off note, math and music skills generally go together

 

One of the reasons public schools want to keep band is because playing an instrument, especially while young (recorders anyone?), actually makes you better at math. So here's you an example of the environment effecting intelligence, aswokei (you'll have to find proper citation; dont use scienceforums.net as a reference ).

 

If you want to get a pretty good idea about this see if your local university, or possibly your library, will let you look at Psychology, nth edition, by David G Myers. Chapters 10 and 11 would be perfect for your paper.

 

"Do people who share the same genes also share comparable mental abilities" As you can see from figure 11.9, which summarizes many studies, the answer is clearly yes...But there is also some evidence pointing to an effect of environment...

 

With age, mental similarities between adopted children and their adoptive families disappear as parental influences wanes; by adulthood, the correlation is roughly zero (McGue et al, 1993). As we accumulate life experiences, genetic influences -- not environmental ones -- become more apparent(Bouchard, 1995, 1996a). Adopted children's intelligence scores become more like those of theri biological parents, and identical twins' similarities continue or increase into their eighties (McClearn et all, 1997; Plomin et al, 1997)."

 

You should also look into environmental conditions for the poor -- from the nurture side, "This indicates that among the poor, environmental conditions can override genetic differences." As long as you have a "normal" environment, nurture doesn't play a big role here. The environment, really, can only harm intelligence -- neglecting a baby will have a greater (absolute) effect then providing special educations lesses.

 

Btw one of the very first things you learn in psychology is the nature vs nurture "debate." Not calling you dumb, but seeing as how you obviously havn't studied any psychology, why are you doing a paper about this?

[1veedo]

And honestly, I think the test was a little pessimistic with the results.

Pessimistic my ass -- IQ tests are optimistic -- they give you higher scores so you'll like the test better and thus recommend it to other people, or if your name is aswokei, you copy the html code and put it on your website so everyone can see how smart you are.

 

Btw IQ tests DO NOT tell you how intelligent you are, especially after age 18 -- they only tell you how fast your brain is maturing. They only reason IQ tests were invented was because the French wanted to find people that weren't advancing very rapidly and put them in special education.

 

There are three major kinds of intelligence.

1) Analytic -- book smarts, assessed by traditional intelligence tests w/ well defined problems / answers.

2) Creative -- Reacting adaptively ro new situations, generating new ideas.

3) Practical -- street smarts, assessed w/ ill-defined problems that have several solutions instead of one. Required for everyday tasks.

[Sisyphus]

First off, I'm about 80% sure this is a joke. If not, friend, I'm afraid you're not nearly as smart as you think you are. Evidence:

 

You equate computer skills with intelligence.

You think an online IQ test gave you a lower score than is accurate.

You are proud of your "IQ," and think we'll be impressed by "98th percentile." (If it will shut you up, out of curiosity I took the Mensa test, and they say I'm 99.98th percentile, but I'm not a member, because they're a bunch of losers who cling to a nearly meaningless number...)

 

ANYWAY, intelligence is not a simple substance that you can have more or less of a quantity of, or even a combination of different substances (like analytic, creative, practical intelligence). These are just abstractions and approximations, and it's really vastly more complex than that, and quite impossible to measure with anything but minimal precision. It can be said in a vague way that one person is smarter than another, at least in specific areas, but the margin of error is quite large.

 

Now, that said, the combination of different factors and aptitudes that we collectively and simplisitically call "intelligence" does, by most studies, appear to be largely genetically based. One in particular that I remember reading about found that intelligence in children and young adults was about 50/50 genetics and environment, but in adults it shifted more and more to genetics. Identical twins usually exhibit fairly similar intelligence as children in different environments, and that intelligence grows even closer as they age.

[timo]

If identical twins score more or less identically on IQ tests (identical twins are nature's clones) [...], what would that mean? How do you guys interpret that?

 

Afaik the twins really interesting for investigations of genetic impact are not "normal twins" but twins that grew up in different enviroments (families). "Normal twins" both being raised by the same family are not so good for distinguishing genetic/biological influence and enviromental/educational influence because they will likely have the same enviroment, too. That makes a distinction between biological and enviromental impact complicated, to say the least. In the case of those "unusual twins", however, I would see a significantly stronger correlation (stronger than for persons from similar backgrounds which are not twins) between IQ scores as a sign of genetic/biological influence. Mostly because I wouldn´t know other factors that might explain the stronger correlation.

[Mokele]

Proving that intelligence is genetically determined is really quite simple: try teaching a goldfish calculus.

 

It sounds flippant, but think about it: if there was no genetic basis for intelligence, species would not vary in their intellectual capacity, or evolve towards greater or lesser degrees of intellect. The mere fact that humans are smarter than other species, even our closest relatives, proves there is a genetic component.

 

Of course, that doesn't deny an environmental component, only that there must be some sort of genetic component.

 

Mokele

[Sisyphus]

My goldfish does understand calculus. I think it's cus I played a lot of Mozart for him while he was still an egg.

[carol]

Just an off note, math and music skills generally go together

 

I would be an exception to that. I really really suck at music but I do well in Math. I'm not a genius though but I usually get high marks in our math tests (maybe the tests I took were just the easy ones).

 

Anyway, I think how a person is nurtured dominates among the factors that influence the person's intelligence.

[aswokei]

But if scientists and researchers are right that identical twins score more or less the same on IQ tests, what does that mean? I mean, don't get me wrong. I scored pretty damn high on an IQ test once and I'm pretty sure I'm a genius--it's just that I'm not really well-trained in these matters.

 

What does it mean? If what they are saying is true, does that mean IQ is almost completely determined by genes? What a horrifying thought!

[ecoli]

I would be an exception to that. I really really suck at music but I do well in Math. I'm not a genius though but I usually get high marks in our math tests (maybe the tests I took were just the easy ones).

 

Anyway, I think how a person is nurtured dominates among the factors that influence the person's intelligence.

 

But I wonder... do you 'suck' at music simply because you haven't taken the time to study it seriously? Maybe you are better than you think.

[GutZ]

But if scientists and researchers are right that identical twins score more or less the same on IQ tests, what does that mean? I mean, don't get me wrong. I scored pretty damn high on an IQ test once and I'm pretty sure I'm a genius--it's just that I'm not really well-trained in these matters.

 

What does it mean? If what they are saying is true, does that mean IQ is almost completely determined by genes? What a horrifying thought!

 

 

O_o

[ecoli]

But if scientists and researchers are right that identical twins score more or less the same on IQ tests, what does that mean? I mean, don't get me wrong. I scored pretty damn high on an IQ test once and I'm pretty sure I'm a genius--it's just that I'm not really well-trained in these matters.

 

What does it mean? If what they are saying is true, does that mean IQ is almost completely determined by genes? What a horrifying thought!

 

Damn it, man. That question has been answered in almost every post in this thread.

 

Why can't a genius like you figure that out? oh yeah...

[aswokei]

Whoa dude, I don't remember asking for you to cop a 'tude. Take a valium or something.