Septenary Units (split from Different Planck Units)

[TurricaN]

I need help in converting seconds and second-derived units into meters, kilograms, seconds, amperes, kelvins, moles and candelas as follows:

 

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? m (how many meters fits in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? kg (how many kilograms fits in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? s (how many seconds fits in 1s¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? A (how many ampers fits in 1sº)

1sˉ¹ = FORMULA = ? K (how many kelvins fits in 1sˉ¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? mol (how many moles fits in 1sº)

1sº = FORMULA = ? cd (how many candelas fits in 1sº)

 

because I want to make fully consistent septenary system of units that are derived from day and week.

 

I know dimension of these seven SI base units in geometrized units as follows:

 

D ³ →

D ² →

D ¹ → length, mass, time

D º → current, amount of substance, luminous intensity

Dˉ¹ → temperature

Dˉ² →

Dˉ³ →

 

because I got this dimensional analysis by further distilling ST spacetime units from LUFE Matrix from here: http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMqtySI.htm into single geometrized D unit of distance (and its derivatives) along any of timespace dimensions as follows:

 

|Dˉ³|Dˉ²|Dˉ¹|Dº|D¹|D²|D³| ←D matrix that is simplified version of LUFE matrix

 

Please help, I'm in deadlock because I don't know conversion formulas from second into each of seven SI base units.

[Martin]

I think I may understand what you are trying to do.

 

tell me if I have caught the main drift of it.

 

You would like to rename the days of the week sort of like this (but not quite)---sort of like:

 

Seconday

Meterday

Ampday

Gramday

Kelvinday

Canday

and Moleday

 

I say sort of like this, but not quite, because BESIDES wanting to name the days of the week after 7 basic units of 7 different types of physical quantity (time, length, electric current, mass,....etc) you want to do something more.

 

It sounds like you want to DEFINE NEW UNITS.

 

I think that is a constructive impulse. Units are a human artifact----the system of units is like some major work of architecture.

People are always tearing down and rebuilding the system of units (the metric system has been redefined dozens of times over the course of its history.)

 

Also there is an aesthetic aspect of this. It is natural to want one's system of units to be BEAUTIFUL. logically simple, elegant, convenient etc. this is a noble desire.

 

So I hope that, for the sake of the honor of humanity, there will always be people who try to improve on the metric system. It is a very ugly system in which the speed of light is exactly

 

299792458 meters per second.

 

exactly.

 

However you TurricaN do not seem intellectually prepared to try redefining the system of units. You should take a basic course in physics first, I think.

 

You talk as if the second is NOT one of the basic metric system units. but it IS one of the main units.

 

In order to relate between units of differerent types, between the time unit and the length unit-----or between those units and the mass unit----you have to rely on a set of quantities called the FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICAL CONSTANTS. Like for example the speed of light is a fund. phys. const.

 

Google "fundamental constants" to find out.

 

the speed of light isn't something special to do with the metric system----it is a universal quantity.

It is the same speed, whereever and whatever units you measure it in, and whatever words you use to talk.

The universe fundamental constants don't depend on any particular system of units.

 

The reason you need to take a college course in general physics is to learn what the fundamental constants are. If you dont have a good knowledge you cannot define sensible units.

 

Also, as a practical matter, you can never expect the rest of society to adopt your units. but I suppose that you do not care about that and are pursuing this on a purely artistic impulse----to produce a thing (a system of units) of beauty.

 

I have nothing more to say about this. good luck.

[TurricaN]

I'm trying to derive all replacements of seven base SI units from daynight period and make its multiples and submultiples purely septenary. To derive all units from second I need following formulas:

 

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? m (how many meters fits in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? kg (how many kilograms fits in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? s (how many seconds fits in 1s¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? A (how many ampers fits in 1sº)

1sˉ¹ = FORMULA = ? K (how many kelvins fits in 1sˉ¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? mol (how many moles fits in 1sº)

1sº = FORMULA = ? cd (how many candelas fits in 1sº)

 

Please provide me these converting formulas to convert from second and second-derived units into m, kg, s, A, K, mol, cd. Without them I'm in deadlock. My system will be both fully consistent and fully compatible with Third Commandment which obliges us to celebrate Sunday: http://www.vatican.net/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm For example here is septenary clock: http://the-light.com/cal/veseptimal.html

 

Don't worry, I will promote this system only in Catholic environments.

 

My next step will be simply converting all units from second to daynight by multiplying by 86400.

[Phi for All]

My system will be at once consistent and compatible with Third Commandment. For example here is septenary clock: http://the-light.com/cal/veseptimal.html

 

Don't worry, I will promote this system only in Christian environments.

What does the third Commandment have to do with your system? Isn't the fourth Commandment about honoring the Sabbath? Why would religion be a factor at all?

[TurricaN]

By derivation units from day I mention setting day as base unit from which all other units derives using energy equivalent formulas, and by derivation them from week I mean adopting base seven system with digits 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,10 only. Numbers 7,8,9 are not existent in this septenary system. Commandment of keeping Sabbath holy is third in Catholic Church. Abovementioned Vatican site states:

 

I. THE SABBATH DAY

 

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92

 

I make my system as such, to avoid coexistence of God's obliged septenary week and system and contradictory optional, not-commanded by God decimal system for example. To make all units consistent there are two ways: either remove Sabbath and make all decimal as French Revolutionists did, or either remove decimal system and keep Sabbath, extending it to all units. I choose keeping Sabbath and removing non-septimal systems, because I want at once obey God and make fully consistent system that seamlessly incorporates Sabbath commanded by God.

[Phi for All]

I make my system as such, to avoid coexistence of God's obliged septenary week and system and contradictory optional, not-commanded by God decimal system for example.

Did God give you seven fingers and seven toes? There are many other things that were not commanded by God. Why do you choose this?

[Bluenoise]

Did God give you seven fingers and seven toes? There are many other things that were not commanded by God. Why do you choose this?

 

Phi is right decimal system was commanded by God. He gave us 10 fingers so we could count to ten. And that is why we have the decimal system

We just expanded on it, with 10 10's to give 100.

[TurricaN]

Decimal system never was commanded by God. Decimal system was commanded by French Revolutionists and other Godless rioters similar to them, that wanted to eradicate Biblical week and its multiples/submultiples. Using (2-segmental) thumb as pointer, and four (3-segmental) main fingers with three intersections between them, one can count on right or left hand in septenary system, because there are seven elements in palm (hand without thumb), such as four (3-segmental) main fingers and three intersections between them, excluding (2-segmental) thumb and asymmetrical intersection between thumb and rest of hand. Thumb is used only as pointer to other fingers while counting. As you see, God integrated in each hand counting and pointing function at once. God commanded us septenary system, because Jews used not only weeks, but too seven-week period called omer, and 343 daynight draconitic/ecliptic year consisted from seven omers. Jews further grouped each seven years into sabbatical, and each seven sabbaticals into jubilee. Daynight was subdivided into seven prayer times called canonical hours in Catholic Church. Additionally, in antiquity for measuring length there was used septenary cubit divided into seven palms (parts of hand without thumb). Because God is perfect and coherent in His plans and thoughts, He never will command two contradictory systems at once. Because to that, God commanded us originally only septenary system. But sinful humans abandoned His perfect commandments and instead of perfect God's septenary system they adopted Godless decimal system (French Revolution against God to make all units derived from 10) and sexagesimal system (satanic revolution against God to make all units derived from 666) for example. These babylonian units are satanic by design, because 24 hours are 6*4, 360 days/degrees are 6*6*10, 60 minutes/seconds/tierces are 6*10, and so on.

[YT2095]

fine, and just How many Commandments did Moses come down from the hill with?

 

I think it was a bit more than Seven

[TurricaN]

Moses got from God 10 commandments, but they were originally grouped firstly into 3 sub-commandments of first commandment of God-love and secondly into 7 sub-commandments of second commandment of neighbor-love. In this way, three is assigned to Trinity-related obligations, and seven is assigned to creation-related obligations. In this way, French-revolutionary base ten is not promulgated by God.

[YT2095]

support this claim please.

[TurricaN]

Here is explanation of Ten Commandment grouping into first three and other seven as I stated above:

 

http://www.catholic.org.uk/library/catechism/thecommandments.shtml

 

The first three commandments refer to the first and greatest commandment that we must love God above all things.

 

The other seven commandments refer to the love we must have for our neighbour.

 

This is not convenient grouping, this is functional grouping.

[YT2095]

you do realize also that by the same deduction only 1 one of those commandments doesn`t contain the letter "N".

 

but 9 of them do.

 

so convenient Grouping is hardly proof of anything.

[Martin]

with all due respect, the TurricaN discussion is off-topic. It is not about Planck units (an interesting system based on fundamental physical constants).

 

Perhaps the TurricaN portion could be split off to form its own thread?

[TurricaN]

Splitting thread is not needed, because I want to return to Planck unit topic even now, after explaining purpose of creating my septenary system, but to do this I need following conversion formulas needed for deriving all units from second and its derived units such as 1s¹, 1sˉ¹, and 1sº:

 

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? m (how many meters are in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? kg (how many kilograms are in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? s (how many seconds are in 1s¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? A (how many ampers are in 1sº)

1sˉ¹ = FORMULA = ? K (how many kelvins are in 1sˉ¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? mol (how many moles are in 1sº)

1sº = FORMULA = ? cd (how many candelas are in 1sº)

 

Can anyone write down here these conversion formulas to converting from 1s¹, 1sˉ¹, and 1sº into seven SI base units as mentioned directly above:

 

1s¹ is plain second, 1sˉ¹ is hertz, and 1sº is dimensionless unit. These dimensions listed below:

 

D ³ →

D ² →

D ¹ → length, mass, time

D º → current, amount of substance, luminous intensity

Dˉ¹ → temperature

Dˉ² →

Dˉ³ →

 

I got by by further distilling ST spacetime units from LUFE Matrix from here: http://www.brooksdesign-cg.com/Code/Html/Lm/LMqtySI.htm,

 

obtaining following simplified version of LUFE matrix:

 

|Dˉ³|Dˉ²|Dˉ¹|Dº|D¹|D²|D³| ←D matrix

[Martin]

Splitting thread is not needed, because I want to return to Planck unit topic even now, after explaining purpose of creating my septenary system, but to do this I need following conversion formulas needed for deriving all units from second and its derived units such as 1s¹, 1sˉ¹, and 1sº:

 

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? m (how many meters are in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? kg (how many kilograms are in 1s¹)

1s¹ = FORMULA = ? s (how many seconds are in 1s¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? A (how many ampers are in 1sº)

1sˉ¹ = FORMULA = ? K (how many kelvins are in 1sˉ¹)

1sº = FORMULA = ? mol (how many moles are in 1sº)

1sº = FORMULA = ? cd (how many candelas are in 1sº)

 

Can anyone write down here these conversion formulas to converting from 1s¹, 1sˉ¹, and 1sº into seven SI base units as mentioned directly above:

 

1s¹ is plain second, 1sˉ¹ is hertz, and 1sº is dimensionless unit.

 

this what you have just written here is off topic. It is not about planck units.

It is asking (possibly meaningless) questions about the METRIC system, not about the planck system.

 

I think you must be confused, if you honestly believe that you want to "return to Planck unit topic" because it seems that you do not understand anything about Planck units.

 

Planck units are simply those which are based on the natural constants of the universe----c, hbar, G

(and if you like you can also add the Boltzmann heat constant k, and the charge of the electron e, to that list----or other things too if you want).

 

but the main thing is that in constructing the units you do not use any quantity which is specific to the Earth (like the length of the Earth's day, or the the length of the second) or which is specific to human conventions. In constructing the units you should use only what is given you by Nature and is therefore something universal-----it would be the same unit if someone in a different galaxy, say Andromeda, were constructing the system.

 

So it is a system intended to be universal, the same everywhere in the cosmos and for all time.

==================

 

what you are talking about is limited to the earth because it has to do with the 24 hour earth rotation period. People living on a different planet would not like your system and probably they would be angry if you tried to make them use it.

==================

 

Therefore what you are talking has nothing to do with Planck units (except as an example of what they are not) and should be split off to a separate thread, in my opinion.

[TurricaN]

I previously thought that my off-topism is placed in talking about Ten Commandments. Thus please provide me these conversion factors in form of formulas including physical constants. I cannot find all seven of these needed conversion factors anywhere. Already, this alternate Planck units thread mentioned deriving one unit from another, for example length unit from time unit, thus I thought that this thread will be appropiate for my needs.

[timo]

I agree with Martin´s proposal to split the thread. I guess Martin is talking about practical units for calculations in physics. Turrican's reason to bother about units seems to be more an aesthetic/ideologic issue. So while there are common points at first glance, the motivation and aim of both approaches seem very different (both in aim and the kind of arguments relevant for the discussion) and should be seperated to avoid mixing up two distinct debates.

[TurricaN]

Splitting is not needed, because old debate finished two years ago and died, and my new debate is continuation of this old dead debate, into my new unit derivation themed debate. But what's with conversion formulas?

[daniel_haxby]

Um, TurricaN, I suspect you have fostered a little ill will by your demanding tone, and the fact that you do not seem to understand the question you are asking. Your question is certainly not on topic for the post, and is probably not even in the correct part of the forum.

 

On the other hand, with my limited knowledge of physics at this level, I wouldn't have put 'different Planck units' under 'classical mechanics'. But then I don't know where I would put them.

 

Your conversion formulae seem possibly meaningless to me, but on the offchance that they do make sense with a better knowledge of special relativity or whatever, I don't see why the 'official' conversion is necessary. Just pick some basis for your unit, and then compare it to the metric, then work out the conversion factor.

 

Martin (I assume: only skimmed the thread) chose his different units to simplify certain equations, aquire a more 'universal' basis for his units, and for aesthetic reasons, and often these three criteria were one and the same.

 

You have to decide what criteria you will use to judge the utility of your units, and then design parameters accordingly. If you just convert metric units by an arbitrary scalar you have achieved nothing. If you somehow reduce the number of different units you require, you will only have done so by a method already available to those versed in the metric system and the required physical theorems, and so without some further goal, your new system of measurement has gained you nothing.

[TurricaN]

Further explanation of sense of formulas needed by me is expanded here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=149595

 

All these formulas placed at forum linked directly above are my guesses and internet findings, but this is sadly not very successful. These formulas depends on relativity, but finally I got stuck with contradictory results in time to mass conversion. Thus I need help. Excuse for demanding tone, but I really need these things pushed forward. I propose move discussion to abovementioned thread at physicsforums.

[Phi for All]

Split from Different Planck Units. Carry on but no arguments about religion unless they pertain to this subject, please. If you feel the need, take it to http://www.theologyforums.com.

[Martin]

Hello Turrica,

 

I am glad you now have a separate thread for your ideas. I feel more free to comment.

 

first, I wonder if we are experiencing a LANGUAGE problem. what is your native language? Are you by any chance a speaker of some slavic language like Russian?

You do not seem completely at ease with English.

If I knew what language you use for thinking I might be able to communicate better.

 

Second, you should realize that from the beginning you are asking for something that is physically impossible. There is no way to convert seconds into meters.

 

Time and length are two different types of physical quantity. the conversion formulas you repeatedly ask for do not exist.

 

Third, the universe has intrinsic natural proportions between all physical quantities-----these are built in to space time and matter at the deepest level. these proportions are called the FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICAL CONSTANTS.

 

there are a few that are very well known, like c, G, hbar, k, e.

If you want to use these proportions you must learn about them and understand them. You should not be asking people to hand you formulas for you to use blindly and without comprehension.

 

If you want formulas based on the fundamental deep ratios built into the universe then you should learn about these ratios.

 

This is my opinion about your project.

 

If you want a place to begin learning about the fundamental physical constants, then you could try Wikipedia, for example

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_units

 

If you can think of questions to ask about the fundamental physical constants, you are welcome to ask questions here---questions about physics, like what is Boltzmann constant, what is Coulomb constant, what is Newton G, and so on.

I don't mean what is the NUMERICAL VALUE of some constant. I mean what things does it relate between? How is it used? What is the role in physics?

 

Anybody can look up the numerical value of these constants on the internet. For example here

http://www.physics.nist.gov/cuu/Constants/index.html

 

http://www.physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Category?view=html&Universal.x=81&Universal.y=14

 

http://www.physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Category?view=html&Frequently+used+constants.x=70&Frequently+used+constants.y=22

 

simply knowing the numerical value is not the same as understanding how the proportion is engrained in nature or revealed in physical processes.

[Martin]

Further explanation of sense of formulas needed by me is expanded here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=149595

....I propose move discussion to abovementioned thread at physicsforums.

 

Now it seems Turrica has decided to go somewhere else..

I think at the PF thread they have not guessed that he has some kind of religious motivation connected with numerology, so he may actually get more help.

 

These formulas depends on relativity, but finally I got stuck with contradictory results in time to mass conversion.

 

To get stuck on mass is not surprising, since there is a unique mass and a unique unit of time for which a certain contradiction is resolved

(and this is one reason why one should not use Earth days or seconds as unit of time).

 

If M is any quantity of mass then one can define two contrasting amounts of time

 

hbar/Mc² (could be associated with the name Arthur Holly Compton---a time related to the Compton wavelength.)

 

GM/c³ (could be associated with the name Karl Schwarzschild---a time related to the Schwarzschild radius of black hole.)

 

there is only one unique quantity M of mass for which these two times (the Compton time and the Schwarzschild time) are the same, and this defines a unique interval of time as well.

[Phi for All]

Decimal system never was commanded by God. Decimal system was commanded by French Revolutionists and other Godless rioters similar to them, that wanted to eradicate Biblical week and its multiples/submultiples.

But the decimal system was used long before the French Revolution. Iran, China, Egypt, India, and Greece all had pre-biblical decimal systems.

Using (2-segmental) thumb as pointer, and four (3-segmental) main fingers with three intersections between them, one can count on right or left hand in septenary system, because there are seven elements in palm (hand without thumb), such as four (3-segmental) main fingers and three intersections between them, excluding (2-segmental) thumb and asymmetrical intersection between thumb and rest of hand. Thumb is used only as pointer to other fingers while counting.

Does this mean, since you start with the index finger, that the pinkie (smallest) is the holy finger, much as the seventh day is holy? What are we commanded to do to remember the pinkie and keep it holy?

God commanded us septenary system, because Jews used not only weeks, but too seven-week period called omer, and 343 daynight draconitic/ecliptic year consisted from seven omers. Jews further grouped each seven years into sabbatical, and each seven sabbaticals into jubilee. Daynight was subdivided into seven prayer times called canonical hours in Catholic Church. Additionally, in antiquity for measuring length there was used septenary cubit divided into seven palms (parts of hand without thumb).

So the Jews and Catholics used this system, but can you show me where they were actually commanded to use it? Something from the Bible and not just pointing to the handy fingers + between fingers - thumb justification that is obvious to... well, only you?

Because God is perfect and coherent in His plans and thoughts, He never will command two contradictory systems at once.

Until the Jews decide to stick with the old covenant and fail to find the Messiah that the Christians did. Those systems seem kind of contradictory and both sides have their reasons....

Because to that, God commanded us originally only septenary system.

I still can't find reference to that commandment.

But sinful humans abandoned His perfect commandments and instead of perfect God's septenary system they adopted Godless decimal system (French Revolution against God to make all units derived from 10) and sexagesimal system (satanic revolution against God to make all units derived from 666) for example.

I wasn't even aware this was a sin. Who knew?

These babylonian units are satanic by design, because 24 hours are 6*4, 360 days/degrees are 6*6*10, 60 minutes/seconds/tierces are 6*10, and so on.

My 24 hour day is 3*8 (work/play/sleep), 360 degrees is usually 4*45 when I'm cutting wood and 60 minutes is 4*15 when I'm working or driving. I guess I just naturally stay away from anything satanic.