The Great Global Warming Swindle

[JTM³]

Just thought you might be interested in seeing this, whatever your view is

 

The Great Global Warming Swindle

 

Although I'm sure most of your minds are made up already.

 

Oh well

[JTM³]

EDIT: Stupid Google; or the links get broken when it updates or something...

 

Anyway, here's two new links you should be able to find it at:

 

The Great Global Warming Swindle (Search List, look for ones that are an hour or more)

 

The Great Global Warming Swindle(Video)

 

The Great Global Warming Swindle(YouTube Video)

[psynapse]

I want to see real data for myself. Does anyone know of any links to refutable climate data that has been collected, because all I can find is the stuff you usually in SciAm and the Discovery Channel.

[AutomagSam]

What I love and people Like Michael Chrichton have pointed out, is the fact that before this great global warming fad, we all acknoledged that Climate cannot be predicted we cannot predict whether patterns, yet some people are asking us to invest millions upon millions on weather patterns 100 years from now? Does it make sense, I think not.

[bascule]

Wow, anyone get the same vibe as those creationist videos where they trot out a lot of people with impressive looking credentials to lambaste the dominant paradigm?

 

Definitely a lot of criticism of the IPCC in this video. Some of it apt. The IPCC isn't perfect. There is a prevailing mindset, and because of that it is hostile to dissenting viewpoints. I used to work for an outspoken IPCC critic. However, like some of these people, while he was an IPCC critic, he was also an IPCC reviewer.

 

This video is doing a pretty evil hack job. They're lumping critics of the IPCC together with critics who oppose the science demonstrating that CO₂ is the predominant radiative forcing impacting the climate system and also with critics of the green movement. Many of the arguments are laughably specious: CO₂ was not affecting the climate system the way it was now at a specific instance in the past. Therefore CO₂ clearly can't affect the climate system that way today! And they intend for us to assume that the climate system is otherwise static.

 

If you want to be critical of the IPCC, great. Want to argue that they're fitting science to policy rather than vice versa? Go right ahead. I don't agree with many of their policy recommendations. I think Kyoto is an absolutely horrible idea. That's not the way to apply policy to solving the problem.

 

What things do I like? Banning incandescent bulbs. That's an excellent way to impact major change. A local professor has found a way to use CO₂ from powerplants to enrich algae growth and thus provide a high-speed way of producing biomass for biodiesel.

 

This video pits opponents of the "green" movement, opponents of the scientific basis for anthropogenic climate change, and opponents of the IPCC into a single video, while simultaneously lumping the climate science community, the IPCC, the UN, and the green movement into a single cohesive force whose sole intention is to shape policy.

 

Yes, they're all in cahoots. It's a big conspiracy, whose sole purpose is to push an anti-capitalist, pro-environmentalist agenda through the highest levels of government.

 

This video is the biggest crock of shit since Oliver Stone's JFK, or at least Loose Change.

 

But that's all moot. To the scientists who oppose global warming:

 

Where's your GCM? Why aren't you doing reconstructions which implicate some radiative forcing other than CO₂ as being predominant?

 

Where's your science?

 

I want to see real data for myself. Does anyone know of any links to refutable climate data that has been collected, because all I can find is the stuff you usually in SciAm and the Discovery Channel.

 

Here's the IPCC's latest report on the physical science basis of climate change:

 

http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf

[JTM³]

Well at least it seems we're all willing to discuss it

[Phi for All]

I look at it this way, if we invest billions in becoming more aware of how we use limited resources and how we affect the planet we live on it will never be wasted. Remember that one of the overlooked benefits is that we get a cleaner place to live.

 

I'm always harping on smarter ways of building roads in the US. We let people drive on asphalt the day it's put down and that insures the road will need to be redone within a year or two. Allowing it to cure saves money but inconveniences us and for some that's a wash as far as the economic factor. But we always forget that if we let the roads cure we get ten years or more of fantastic roads!

 

So even if our global warning fears turn out false we'll still get a cleaner home out of it.

[bascule]

My hometown of Boulder is investing quite a bit of money in building underpasses for bikers. This means that us bikers can get anywhere in town without having to wait for traffic lights. Because of this biking is actually a much faster way of getting around here than driving! And rather than sitting in a sea of cars waiting for the light to change, I have a nice morning ride to work which goes alongside a creek. And rather than spending money on gas, I get free exercise! Woo!

 

Until recently the weather prevented me from biking to work (we just had the worst winter on record here in terms of total snowfall), but now I'm biking again and loving it.

 

Oh, and it's feeling unseasonably warm...

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You might not be able to read all of this, but:

http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19325943.900-climate-report-was-watered-down.html

[Phi for All]

My hometown of Boulder is investing quite a bit of money in building underpasses for bikers. This means that us bikers can get anywhere in town without having to wait for traffic lights. Because of this biking is actually a much faster way of getting around here than driving!

And Boulder briefly considered flyovers before they chose to make the more expensive underpasses. They'll spend more money but the benefit is that the view isn't marred by above-ground structures. Efficient AND more pleasing.

 

I wish we could have an elevated maglev train between Denver and Boulder. It would show everyone that trains don't have to interact with traffic, that light rail can reduce automobile use and that people can make better use of their commute time if they don't have to pay attention to the road. And maglevs are sooooo sweet and green! A great example of more efficient technology that saves money over the long run AND is a more pleasurable experience to boot.

[swansont]

What I love and people Like Michael Chrichton have pointed out, is the fact that before this great global warming fad, we all acknoledged that Climate cannot be predicted we cannot predict whether patterns, yet some people are asking us to invest millions upon millions on weather patterns 100 years from now? Does it make sense, I think not.

 

You think not? And yet thought is required. Unfettered from logical fallacies like argument from incredulity, argument from authority or appeal to popularity.

 

Before this "fad" there was a lot of things we couldn't do.

[bascule]

And Boulder briefly considered flyovers before they chose to make the more expensive underpasses. They'll spend more money but the benefit is that the view isn't marred by above-ground structures. Efficient AND more pleasing.

 

And for the most part the bike paths run alongside the various creeks that flow through Boulder, so some sort of culvert under the road is needed for the streams anyway. The underpasses provide both a place for the stream to flow through and a convenient system of bike trails.

 

I wish we could have an elevated maglev train between Denver and Boulder. It would show everyone that trains don't have to interact with traffic, that light rail can reduce automobile use and that people can make better use of their commute time if they don't have to pay attention to the road. And maglevs are sooooo sweet and green! A great example of more efficient technology that saves money over the long run AND is a more pleasurable experience to boot.

 

Haha, well it's not going to be an elevated maglev, but RTD plans to extend light rail service to Boulder by 2014. The idea I can hop on a train, be in downtown Denver in less than an hour, get completely sloshed, then ride the train back is extremely

appealing

 

Plus I-36 is one of the most congested interstates in the country, so some sort of solution is needed...

[Pangloss]

Please pardon the slight topic drift, but since we're on the subject, has there been any further development of that idea to have mass transit running between Denver and the Front Range ski resorts?

[psynapse]

Thanks for the info bascule.

[Phi for All]

Please pardon the slight topic drift, but since we're on the subject, has there been any further development of that idea to have mass transit running between Denver and the Front Range ski resorts?

I'll check with my sister-in-law who works for the Regional Transportation District but they're having enough trouble pushing FasTracks through. Important people who will never ride light rail don't think anyone should. And those same people don't ski the Front Range, they only fly to Aspen.

[Pangloss]

I gues that makes sense (what was Al Gore's electrical bill last month?).

 

It'd be a shame if it never happened, though, because it's just such a rare perfect fit for mass transit in this country. You've got a large group of people covering difficult terrain on a regular basis with no desire to do any driving-around once they get there. It's textbook.

 

That's interesting about the light rail link between Denver and Boulder, but there of course you go back to the usual problem of people needing to get around once they arrive at the "destination". Which suggests to me the usual result.

[JTM³]

You guys must be professional thread hijackers

[bascule]

Please pardon the slight topic drift, but since we're on the subject, has there been any further development of that idea to have mass transit running between Denver and the Front Range ski resorts?

 

There already is, in the form of the "Ski Train" which runs from Denver to Winter Park (through the Moffat Tunnel):

 

http://www.skitrain.com/

 

Winter Park is on the Western Slope, not the Front Range. Most of the good ski areas (Vail, Breckenridge, Aspen, Copper Mountain, Arapahoe, Keystone) are on the Western Slope. The best ski area on the Eastern Slope, Loveland, lies on the Great Continental Divide just miles from the Western Slope.

 

However, this train is indicative of the poor financial planning which generally dogs privately owned mass transportation systems around here:

 

1. Tickets are $49 each round-trip, which is rather steep.

 

2. The train departs and returns once a day. It boards at 6:30 AM, departs at 7:15 AM, and arrives in Winter Park at 9:30 AM. The return departure is at 4:15 PM, arriving in Denver at 6:30PM.

 

3. All tickets are round-trip for the same day only. If you wish to ride to Winter Park one day, spend the night, and return the next, it costs a prohibitively expensive $98.

 

4. The train is direct from Denver to Winter Park. While the train cruises by many former stations, which are still standing, it stops at none of them. For someone living in Boulder to ride the Ski Train, they have to drive or ride the bus 23.5 miles to reach Union Station in Denver: (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=boulder,+co+to+union+station,+denver,+co&sll=39.87075,-105.505829&sspn=0.725144,1.223602&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=11&om=1)

 

5. Even if the train stopped by nearby Rollinsville, the RTD bus system doesn't go that far. It only goes as far as Nederland, which is approximately 5 miles from Rollinsville.

 

I believe there's MASSIVE potential for interconnecting public transportation systems to provide service for the many skiers in Colorado. I live in Boulder, which is a city nearby yet rather disconnected from Denver. People here are rather "European" in their political views. We have an excellent local bus system which is funded by city taxes and interoperates with the larger Regional Transportation District (RTD) bus system. We also have an excellent system of bike trails. Boulderites are fairly committed to finding non-automobile based means of getting around.

 

If I had the power to change both the public (RTD) and private (Ski Train) transportation systems around here, I'd extend RTD service to Rollinsville during the ski season, make the Ski Train stop in Rollinsville, and have discount tickets between Rollinsville and Winter Park.

 

Here's Google Maps showing the distance. It's approximately 20 miles by train:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=rollinsville,+co&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=12&ll=39.917636,-105.674744&spn=0.188798,0.41851&om=1

 

Here's a map showing the Boulder Canyon highway between Boulder and Nederland (which RTD covers) and the short distance from Nederland to Rollinsville (which RTD doesn't cover):

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=rollinsville,+co&layer=&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=12&ll=39.983697,-105.365067&spn=0.188616,0.41851

 

And finally, here's a map showing the circuitous 77 mile distance that must be traveled by automobile to accomplish the same trip:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=boulder,+co+to+winter+park,+co&sll=39.888929,-105.594749&sspn=0.188877,0.41851&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=10&om=1

 

The train route, which provides an environmentally-friendly mass transit system between the two cities, is unfortunately controlled by a private entity who seeks to maximize profit on it while minimizing risk. Rather than running a multiple-train, multi-stop service multiple times per day, and allowing people to opt for multiple day trips on round-trip tickets, they run what they consider to be a low-risk, once a day, use-it-or-lose-it-on-the-same-day service.

 

This is retarded.

 

Sometimes capitalistic ideals don't work out. Sometimes individual companies, who can monopolize a resource like the Moffat Tunnel, make retarded decisions that hurt everyone.

 

When you have multiple forms of transportation like busses (RTD) and trains (Union Pacific), they can interoperate in a single, cohesive transportation network. But when there are private players, systems don't always get along. This is definitely the case with the Ski Train. Rollinsville provides the optimal boarding point for Boulderites to access not only Winter Park, but other skiing destinations such as Steamboat. However the train doesn't run to Steamboat. Even if it ran to Steamboat, it'd take a day, and then you wouldn't have time to ski. You couldn't ride the train there, spend the night in their hot springs pool, then ski the next day and board the train at 4PM for the return ride home.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible for private transportation systems to work this way, but Union Pacific doesn't care to try.

 

What's the result? I-70, the Interstate which provides the only transportation corridor between Denver and all the ski areas I listed above, is slated to undergo 10 years of construction to upgrade it from 2 lanes to three in each direction. The plan involves elevating the Interstate the entire distance from Denver to the Eisenhower and Johnson tunnels which run under the Continental Divide (approximately 30 miles).

 

Various rail solutions have been proposed to compliment I-70, but they're all enormously expensive and would run along the existing I-70 corridor.

 

What's really been neglected are the existing transportation systems in the form of the RTD bus system and the Union Pacific ski train. If RTD could go 10 miles farther and Union Pacific have their train stop in Rollinsville and allow passengers to ride the train for approximately 20 miles for, say, less that $49 round trip for trips spanning multiple days, and let Boulderites take a 20 mile bus ride to Rollinsville and a 20 mile train ride to Winter Park instead, I think they'd manage to divert a hell of a lot of traffic from I-70.

 

As is, RTD does provide direct bus service from Boulder to the nearest (Front Range) ski area, Eldora / Indian Peaks, for approximately $5. However, I've got to say: Eldora sucks. It's small. It's cold. It's windy. It's a shadow of the awesomeness that is Winter Park.

 

(And people wonder why I own a car...)

[Phi for All]

You guys must be professional thread hijackers

Very sorry, inefficient transportation and GW just seem like such a good fit. But of course you were talking about the swindle video so please forgive us.

 

It seems like there is some new info just in about your video. Timing didn't work out to merge the two threads so please see this thread about The Great Global Warming Swindle Swindle.

[AL]

What I love and people Like Michael Chrichton have pointed out, is the fact that before this great global warming fad, we all acknoledged that Climate cannot be predicted we cannot predict whether patterns, yet some people are asking us to invest millions upon millions on weather patterns 100 years from now? Does it make sense, I think not.

Of course we can predict weather patterns, that's why we have weather forecasts. Sometimes they get it wrong, but the forecasts beat random guessing enough to be significant.

 

You cannot assume that just because day-to-day weather forecasts are highly variable that this makes forecasts of long-term trends highly variable. Sometimes large scale and long term phenomena are easier to predict than their small scale and short term counterparts. Example: you cannot easily predict in what direction a dust-eddy in your backyard will rotate, but the direction of rotation of hurricanes is easy to predict.

[MyThai]

Human have such little impact on earth.

 

Yes, the globe is warming. But human actions have little to nothing to do with it.

[bascule]

Human have such little impact on earth.

 

Yes, the globe is warming. But human actions have little to nothing to do with it.

 

And the scientific basis behind that statement is...

 

People who build models of the climate system see a very different picture:

 

[MyThai]

Please no more graphs and charts.

 

Statistics isn't science.

 

 

I was merely pointing out that natural events such as volcanic eruption or forest fire affect CO2 levels far more than industry.

[1veedo]

Lol here we go again.

[Bignose]

Statistics isn't science.

 

 

I have tried several times now to stop, but I just keep laughing at this statement. You can't be serious, can you? Absolute proof about anything is exceptionally hard to find (that's why there is still a "theory of gravity") but a preponderance of evidence, i.e. statistics, is how science makes its best guess about things. And statistics are pretty much the entire basis of sciences like psychology, sociology, etc.

 

Never mind that in almost every single physical situation it is impossible to get exactly the same data no matter how closely you try to replicate the experiment at hand. The answer... statistics of course.

 

So, I still keep laughing at that statement. Here's hoping it really was just a joke.