electrolysis with AC ?

[Comandante]

i have a power supply that i use for electrolysis and it's only DC. what if i was to try an AC PS for electrolysis? what would happen? (couple of shots at google revealed that this would apparently not work) my guess would be - nothing much, not that i tried, but there should be something happening there no? i'd be thankful to anyone who can explain the effect in a bit of detail..

 

edit: title meant to be 'electrolysis with/by AC'

[Darkblade48]

I believe it's because of the nature of AC power (i.e. the current alternates, 60 Hz a second), causing the cathode/anode to switch just as rapidly. This means no real electrolysis occurs.

[YT2095]

the electrodes spend equal times being Pos and Neg, the overall net effect is that anything that May occur for that split second is undone again in the next split second.

since this is 50/50 nothing overall happens.

[woelen]

I once did the experiment, and well, things do happen. We have 50 Hz AC, and what is observed is formation of bubbles at both electrodes. I did the electrolysis with copper electrodes in NaCl. At both sides there were bubbles, and both electrodes are corroded. The bubbles are hydrogen gas.

 

I also did the experiment with carbon electrodes and with 220 V AC (VERY DANGEROUS!!!!), using a very dilute solution of NaCl. The effect of that is formation of gas, and sometimes ignition of gas bubbles under water, near the electrodes. I slowly increased the concentration of NaCl, and at a certain point, I got a nice continuous stream of gas, with sparks of miniature explosions every few tenths of a second. These sparks most likely are due to ignition of gas mixed of H2 and Cl2 and/or H2 and O2. Using too high a concentration of NaCl makes the reaction too vigorous and quite hot.

 

I strongly discourage someone else to repeat this, unless you are really experienced with working with high voltages in wet environments. This experiment is DANGEROUS, due to severe electrical shock risks. You cannot say I did not warn you!

[Comandante]

I once did the experiment, and well, things do happen. We have 50 Hz AC, and what is observed is formation of bubbles at both electrodes. I did the electrolysis with copper electrodes in NaCl. At both sides there were bubbles, and both electrodes are corroded. The bubbles are hydrogen gas.

 

Following YT2095's logic the electrodes should remain in their original states after being exposed to AC in the solution for a certain time. That's what I thought as well. But in that experiment of yours you are saying that both electrodes did corrode and H2 gas was released. I have one question, if there was no copper chloride formed, does that mean that electrolysis did not work, despite the hydrogen gas and corroded electrodes?

[woelen]

In my experiments, I also obtained a flocculent dark green precipitate of hydrous copper oxide/oxychloride/hydroxide. So, yes, I also had copper (II), suspended in the solution.

[gcol]

Answers so far seem to assume identical electrodes. What if they are different?

[Comandante]

Interesting. I will try to find AC PS to perform your experiment woelen and if we have 2 sets of results that produced copper(II) then we could conclude that electrolysis does indeed work with AC but to a limited extent. Obviously it's not good for any practical use as there's all sorts of things happening in there (judging from your results), nevertheless it disproves the statement 'electrolysis with AC does not work' ... (We should have another go at it to make sure of that though, but I think your experiment meets my satisfaction, I always wondered if AC would work for electrolysis at all.)

 

(by the way thanks for changing my title whoever did it )

 

I'll take a guess at saying that different electrodes would experience a similar effect and I doubt it would make any difference as far as AC is concerned... However, I don't wish to imply so until I try it

[jdurg]

Technically speaking, AC electrolysis really doesn't work. The point of electrolysis is to separate a chemical through the use of electricity and isolate it's components. With AC, since the anode and cathode are constantly switching back and forth, you really aren't separating the components. You're just decomposing the compound and creating a mixture of products. In terms of usefulness, AC Electrolysis is completely useless.

[InfoSauce]

I've been kicking the AC current idea around in my head for the past couple days, and after digging around I also came to the conclusion that it doesnt work very well.... However, this lead me to another idea... So far everything I have read regarding the use of AC current always involved the standard 50 or 60 hz range.... This litte detail gives rise to a couple questions... What's an H2O molecule's resonance frequency? And, what kind of results would using an AC current at that frequency produce? if any.

[gcol]

So far everything I have read regarding the use of AC current always involved the standard 50 or 60 hz range.... This litte detail gives rise to a couple questions... What's an H2O molecule's resonance frequency? And, what kind of results would using an AC current at that frequency produce? if any.

 

Good questions, which prompt me to ask another: Just how low can the reversal rate be and still qualify as AC current? Do we just blindly assume the normal domestic frequency?

 

Without having any experimental evidence, Would I reasonably expect different results if current was reversed every hour or two? And supposing the current and/or voltage changed with each reversal?

[DJBruce]

As said previously nothing should happen becuase the charges are swhtiching. A similar thing to this happened on the Mythbusters when they tried there prision break episode.

[InfoSauce]

As said previously nothing should happen becuase the charges are swhtiching. A similar thing to this happened on the Mythbusters when they tried there prision break episode.

 

 

I wouldnt take anything that the so called "myth busters" peddle as gosple truth. Everything they do is a dilluted dumbed down version, and an insult to anyone with a functioning brain... There are a lot of other ways to approach this with an AC current... I'm going to start experimenting on this personally, at the moment I need to purchase supplies, but it's going to take a while, first step is aquiring a function generator, (that's going to be the expensive part)... Next I will have to construct an apparatus, I'm thinking about going with a water tube design using stainless steel 3/8 in tubing, and transparent pvc pipe... I should have a working device here in the next 3 weeks or so... I'll keep the thread posted on my findings.

[DJBruce]

Although I agree that they do water down science I think their results are still valid one of them use AC current and salsa to try to erode a bar and nothing happened while another converted the AC current to DC and used the same salsa and greatly reduced the diameter of the bar. But please do keep us posted on the experiment.

[YT2095]

Just how low can the reversal rate be and still qualify as AC current? Do we just blindly assume the normal domestic frequency?

 

Without having any experimental evidence, Would I reasonably expect different results if current was reversed every hour or two?

 

I`m not sure there IS a lower limit to still qualify as AC, on the condition that at Some point it does alternate.

but then it would be still the DC phase that would be doing the work and being maintained long enough to overcome the electrode passivation and allow at least a Few ions to travel the electrolyte distance.

 

I have has cells that when you reverse the polarity Nothing at all happens for a good minute or so, and then slowly it will start reacting again, and that was just using carbon rods as electrodes.

 

so as long as the duration of DC in an AC wave is long enough to overcome things like this, it will work a bit, but there isn`t a Single figure that cac be given for this as an "Optimum", it has to factor in the Entire cells dynamic.

[InfoSauce]

Although I agree that they do water down science I think their results are still valid one of them use AC current and salsa to try to erode a bar and nothing happened while another converted the AC current to DC and used the same salsa and greatly reduced the diameter of the bar. But please do keep us posted on the experiment.

 

 

Will do... The purpose of my experiment will be to determine the effects using various frequencies of AC current, wether it works or not is kind of a grey area, because technically it does work, just not nearly as well as a direct current... I believe that altering the frequency of the AC current will have varying effects... From what I have read over the years, it's my understanding that molecular bonds are weakened by exposure to thier corresponding resonant frequencies. If this is true, then it would be logical to assume that the bonds can also be broken... Exactly how? Well.... Hopefully I'll uncover attributes that point in that direction.

 

Cheers!

[YT2095]

I read somewhere a few years ago that a frequency of 900+ Hz (I don`t rem the Exact number) was supposed to assist in the cracking of water to its elements, however I would take that with a pinch of salt, the validity of the claim and running a lawnmower off this gas seemed a little bit Too far fetched.

 

it Might be worth having a good look around this frequency though, if only to Falsify their claims

I personally suspect that what they May have done/seen was smaller bubbles but more of them, giving the Illusion that more gas was being generated.

[TheBuzz]

The H2O tetrahedron joins with other tetrahedrons to form a platonic solid cube.

 

Normally the bond angle is experimentally found to be 104 degrees and the bond is flexible. By using a double side band AM modulated AC signal, you can change the bond angle to 109 degrees and 28 minutes. This makes the tetrahedron rigid.

 

The way to shatter the water molecule is to put that SSB AC signal into a resonant circuit. You need to use a minimum of two frequencies one is about 610 hz and the other probably 20 times that 12,200hz. One frequency vibrates the molecular bond and the other the atomic bond.

 

The frequency should both sweep back and forth and vary in intensity 2-3 times per second in order to roll the molecule to enhance the fracturing process.

 

It appears that both Meyer and Puharich also used ceramics and I suspect that a piezo effect was present. Puharich speaks of phonon production in his 5 part lecture located on youtube and is a must see if you are interested.

 

The work of Both Meyer and Puharich is based on the work of John Keeley.

 

The place to start is to build a DSB mixer to produce the RF signal with a 600hz carrier and 12,200 hz modulation.

 

It does not violate thermodynamics since it is an open system with an external fuel and power source and it does not violate Faraday since it is not DC electrolysis. It is a fracturing or cleaving process. Use a high voltage anode to remove electrons and prevent recombination.

 

The rate of production will easily allow you to run an engine on nothing but water. It has been done many times by many people.

 

Hope that helps.

 

PS - If you get caught doing it, the corrupt government will place you under a section 35 part 109 secrecy order.

Edited March 18, 2009 by TheBuzz

[max.yevs]

i tries elctrolysing salt water with ac straight from the plug...

 

its very energetic and makes tiny explosions at both electodes (because hydrogen and oxygen are being produced one after the other really quickly, and with enough electricity to spark them)... but i do suppose some gas escapes

[DaWiz]

I too tried electrolyzing water using AC current from the wall (carefully of course) using stainless steel (supposedly anyway--I used a paint scraper/putty knife that said "stainless steel).

 

I did two trials. The first trial, I had the electrodes fairly well submerged in tap water, then pinched sodium sulfate salt into the water to increase the conductivity. After a few pinches, I had a nice stream of bubbles that evolved into a boiling frenzy.

 

The second trial, I used an already prepared solution of sodium sulfate and barely had the electrodes submerged. The electrodes produced gas rapidly (not immensely rapid, though).

 

In both cases, the water grew hot very quickly and the stainless steel rusted--suspension of iron oxide(s) in the water. So my question to anybody is do you think the 110V from the wall is the reason for the rapid rusting of my electrodes--i.e. would a lower voltage save my electrodes from putting out iron oxide suspension into the solution? (The problem with that is of course, less gas production b/c of less amps)

[Mr Skeptic]

Still, 1/120th of a second is enough to get something done. If your electrolysis product is a gas, it will be non-conductive and might not participate in the opposing reaction. I think that with water the result would be bubbles on both electrodes consisting of a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas, and a tremendous waste of energy due to using 10 times the voltage any sane person would use (electrolysis is by amperes not volts, and any excess voltage is essentially wasted). Also, after a while you could get the water to boil. In fact, if the reaction does get undone, both electrodes are going to get really hot and form bubbles of boiling water. For those who did this experiment, were you able to collect any of the gas?

[froarty]

just a thought - I know a lot of electrolysis for HHO use a pulsed DC for

their work - and often refer to it improperly as AC( the current alternating between on and off instead of positive and negative)

[ecco]

I would be interested to see how to use a computer sound card to generate the 610hz and 12200hz and amplify that to use for electrolysis. Maybe it would be easier to use two 555 timer chips.

 

Anyways, I've been playing with water electrolysis for a while, but all my trials have had relatively low output. Any suggestions...

[insane_alien]

um... why such high frequencies?

[ecco]

There's alot of speculation that those combined frequencies are the "sweet spot" for decomposition of water. Unfortunately my experience on the component level is not so good or I'd design/setup a test myself.