Can I use the red phosporous as an oxidiser in place of KNO3?

[vincent4e]

i cant seem to get my hands on even a single drop of KNO3 and I am dying to make a rocket propellant...

So I was wondering if using Red P instead of KNO3 in the sugar fuel mix ...can it possibly work?

[woelen]

No, that will not work. You need an oxidizer, together with the sugar. If you do have red P, please DO NOT USE THAT in a rocket, combined with any oxidizer.

A combination of red P and sugar is only fuel, but no oxidizer at all, it will not burn in a tube, when no air can access the mix.

[vincent4e]

But I've tried combusting Red P and recrystallized sucrose mix and it can burn pretty well..

And that was done in a pyrex test tube..So I'm not sure whether Red P is indeed an oxidiser?

[YT2095]

RP is a Reductor NOT an Oxidizer.

it burns because there`s Oxygen in the air (and some in the sugar).

[vincent4e]

a reductor...hmmm...then what can be used in place of KNO3 then?Will KMnO4 do?

[YT2095]

have you read ANYTHING that`s been said so far?

 

and NO, you do NOT use RP and KMnO4 mixed!!! EVER!

[woelen]

Vincent4e, do you really have red P? If I read your posts and see what you know about chemistry, then I can only give you one advice. Do not play around with the red P. The combination of red P and any oxidizer is insanely dangerous and you WILL get serious accidents if you mix red P with an oxidizer. Such mixes burn exceptionally violently and many of them easily ignite, even without lighting them. So, do not mix it with KNO3, KMnO4, KClO3, KClO4, etc. Please take this warning seriously.

[YT2095]

some even Detonate Proper!

[vincent4e]

Yes ..red P I've gotten from a local store although it is not in high concentrations..

I guess I shouldn't mess around with such stuffs after all...

(My knowledge of chemistry is quite limited as I'm only a student who is taking the GCSE O levels this year..)

[YT2095]

you`ve bought impure RP from a "local store"!?

 

erm, what country do you live in?

and what is the Product you bought?

[vincent4e]

Sorry my bad..I actually did not buy the impure RP as a stand-alone substance..but rather "harvested" it from those strike-anywhere matches with RP in it..

[YT2095]

strike anywhere matches don`t contain RP as far as I know, but rather Phosphorus sesquisulphide.

[vincent4e]

Actually they do contain a small quantity RP after doing some research on the net before I actually scouted for those matches

[YT2095]

what brand? and wouldn`t you have been better off buying Safety matches and taking the RP off the Box sides?

[vincent4e]

But the RP is mixed with glass bits..so probably it may not burn that well

[YT2095]

the glass is wholely ignorable for the main part, you can take appart toy Caps (think cap guns), put the powder into hot water one at a time

 

anyway, this is sidetracking...

 

the fact is DON`T use RP in ANY mixture such as you describe and certainly NOT in the quantities you need and ABSOLUTELY do not ever confine this mix in a tube for a rocket!

 

it`ll take you out of your life and you wouldn`t even hear it!

 

RP mixes can go off for No Reason at all (and do), seriously, play with Dynamite instead, it`s several orders of magnitude Safer!

[vincent4e]

I see.....but then, is potassium chlorate safe enough to be in the mix and to be the oxidizer?

[YT2095]

I see.....but then, is potassium chlorate safe enough to be in the mix and to be the oxidizer?

 

what do that mean?

[John Cuthber]

There are not many safe (even in relative terms) mixtures containing chlorates and even fewer "safe" mixtures containing red phosphorus.

If you know little enough about this to ask the original question you need to do a lot of research before playing with these materials.

I have only had occasion to work with red phosphorus once. I wasn't altogether happy working with it. I couldn't turn the job down because it was part of a fatal accident enquiry. I analyse explosives (among other things) for a living. Really, if you have some red P take it outside, put it on something you don't care about and set fire to it before you hurt yourself.

[YT2095]

^^^ sounds like good advice to me ^^^

[foodchain]

"The allotrope, white phosphorus, should be kept under water at all times as it presents a significant fire hazard due to its extreme reactivity to atmospheric oxygen, and it should only be manipulated with forceps since contact with skin can cause severe burns. Chronic white phosphorus poisoning of unprotected workers leads to necrosis of the jaw called "phossy-jaw". Ingestion of white phosphorus may cause a medical condition known as "Smoking Stool Syndrome". [8]

 

When the white form is exposed to sunlight or when it is heated in its own vapor to 250°C, it is transmuted to the red form, which does not phosphoresce in air. The red allotrope does not spontaneously ignite in air and is not as dangerous as the white form. Nevertheless, it should be handled with care because it does revert to white phosphorus in some temperature ranges and it also emits highly toxic fumes that consist of phosphorus oxides when it is heated."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus

 

White phosphorus is very hazardous to your health for more reasons then posted above, its also does not have to be in huge quantity to be harmful.

[YT2095]

great if he had White Phos, however this is not the case here.

[foodchain]

great if he had White Phos, however this is not the case here.

 

I had not noticed it brought up yet, and the plan is to use red p as a fuel source for a rocket, with no real physical attributes of such giving, and this attribute of red p not giving, so I just though I would toss it out there.

[John Cuthber]

Let's face it, if he had white phosphorus he'd probably be dead by now. Come to think of it, burning red P in a sealed tube with sugar might make enough white P to be a problem. You would need to be unlucky but...

[jdurg]

I remember when I bought my red phosphorus for my element collection right at the tail end of it being available on E-Bay. I got a LOT of the stuff. Enough to fill up a 20 mL vial nearly 80% of the way. That vial hasn't been opened since the P was put in and the vial capped off, but the phosphorus still had a very distinct odor to it that I'll probably not forget.