Hyperspace, Gravity and Teleportation

[JohnB]

This post and speculation is based on the result of my general knowledge and a logical thought process. I freely admit to a lack of anything but a basic ( and possibly wrong ) knowledge of gravitational theory. However, using these basics I came to some interesting logical conclusions. Please feel free to correct any mistakes you may find.

 

I'm not putting this missive forward as a theory or even hypothesis, it is merely speculations with ( I think ) rather unusual conclusions.

 

I'll begin with what I understand to be the basic ideas behind Gravitational Theory.

 

1. Gravity is the force resulting from the exchange of the theoretical/imaginary particles called "Gravitons". (Or some type of carrier, I'll call them Gravitons for ease of understanding.)

 

2. It doesn't really matter whether they exist or not, we can use the concept as a valid base because the maths works.

 

3. Gravitons ( or whatever ) travel at c.

 

My conjecture began by wondering what would happen to a starship re-entering normal space from a theoretical "Hyperspace". If we had the ship appearing in, say, the Earth Trojan position, what would happen? When it appears it will begin radiating gravitons, but these particles will not reach the Sun for around 8 minutes, so there would be an 8 minute delay before any "exchange" can possibly take place.

 

So would this mean that for the first 8 minutes the ship would not be effected by the Sun's gravity and would suddenly shunt sideways when the exchange takes place? Uncomfortable for those inside, to say the least. There is also the question of what happens when it blinks into Hyperspace? Is there a gravitational effect felt in the area for 8 minutes after the ship leaves? What happens if the ship blinks in and leaves again before the 8 minutes are up?

 

As you can see, a lot of questions with no real answers, or any way of getting answers. ( Don't worry, I'm getting to the interesting bit, but I did want to lay out the thought process for review. Although I did find the idea of a gravitational effect being present after the mass has left to be rather wild. )

 

I came to the conclusion that therefore either a) This is no Hyperspace or b) gravitational theory was incomplete or misleading. ( I would not call it "wrong" as far more intelligent people than I have worked on it and I have great trouble with the idea that they may have messed up.)

 

From all this I wondered if there was a way to work out which one was the correct conclusion.

 

I then wondered about light. Light is effected by gravity so it should also be putting out these theoretical/ imaginary particles Gravitons. The basis for this is that if gravity is the result of an exchange of these particles then to be effected by gravity light must be able to exchange them. Therefore light emits them.

 

Remembering that photons have now been teleported seemed to give a possible way to observe this possible 8 minute delay thing. But how do you get a photon to hang around for 8 minutes in an obsevation chamber? Obviously you can't.

 

BUT. The trajectory of a photon is the result of it's initial direction and any and all forces, including gravity that act upon it. So what if we use two photons on parallel trajectories?

 

Photon A is the control. It's trajectory is the result of the initial vector and the combined gravitational forces of Earth and the Sun.

 

Photon B is the one we are interested in. It starts with the same vector as Photon A but we teleport it. (The distance shouldn't matter.) If there is a delay due to a time lag for the exchange of forces it should come out with a different trajectory to Photon A as only the gravity of Earth will be effecting it. However, if the trajectory is still the same as Photon A then we would perhaps be able to conclude that the effect of the Sun's gravity is not subject to a delay.

 

If it is not subject to a delay then we would have to question the idea that gravity is the result of an exchange of forces/particles that travel at c.

 

As I said at the beginning, this is not put forward as any sort of theory, just a speculation and a possible way to test the validity of the speculation. I'm also fully aware that I may have wasted my time with the thoughts, but I was driving home and the radio was boring.

 

Please feel free to ponder, criticize, rip it to shreds or speculate if it may be the beginning of an idea. ( Or more likely, someone else has already thought of and thrown out the idea.)

[Klaynos]

I quite like this.

 

Some comments, your right our theory of gravity is in no way complete, the quantum theory has some big issues when compared to the GR theory Does anyone know whether the quantum theory allows for virtual gravitons to be given out by photons? Also it might be a good idea if you do some quick maths to work out how large the trajectory change would be, would it be large enough to measure if it is telported from the near side of the earth to the sun to the far side?

 

I'm not sure about the telportation technology that has been done, in terms of distance and whether it is really teleportation or whether that is media hype?

[swansont]

I don't work in this field, so there's some conjecture here-

 

I think this points out why gravitons do not behave like virtual photons. The retardation of gravity in GR is different (gravity vector from the sun doesn't point in the exact direction the photons come from; gravity is here now and the light taes the eight minutes), and the behavior of gravitons would have to be consistent. Space is already curved from the sun, so wherever the spaceship appears, it would feel the gravity. That indicates to me that gravitons interact with each other somehow. The sun would not feel the gravity from the ship fo eight minutes, but the ship would feel it immediately. The appearance of the ship would alter he curvature already present.

[JohnB]

I thank you both for your replies.

 

Klaynos, I don't think the distance teleported would matter.

 

On further thought I have realised that my experiment would not work. My intention was to compare the paths of a Photon that was already reacting to the Sun's gravity with one that "appeared" to see if there was any difference in the trajectories. As both Photon A and Photon B were created at the same time, neither would respond to the Sun's gravity. (Or both would.) Hence their paths would be identical and we would prove nothing. Bummer.

 

Perhaps an "easier" way to see if there is any effect would be to fire a photon between mirrors and see if the path changed after 8 minutes. Please note this is only easier in the theoretical sense as I doubt it is possible to create such mirrors. If the mirrors were 1 km apart the photon would bounce some 72,000,000 times in 8 minutes and would certainly be absorbed well before the needed time elapsed.

 

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

 

Swansont, you've hit on an area that has always bothered me in regard to the whole "exchange of particles/forces" concept. If gravity is caused by an exchange, then for gravity to exist an exchange must take place.

 

My initial mental question was "What would happen if a ship appeared in the same orbit as Earth travelling at 29.8 km/s in a transverse direction relative to the Sun?" If gravity is felt instantly (as intuition tells us it should) then the ship would immediately follow an orbital path. However, if there is an exchange of particles/forces the ship should fly on a tangent for some 8 minutes and then follow an orbital path.

 

Thinking further. (Who would have thought a traffic jam was actually useful? ) Super massive Black Holes. We now have an object with such intense gravity that nothing can escape from it except the thing that causes the gravity in the first place. It would seem we are giving these particle/forces some amazing abilities. Is there another way of looking at the problem?

 

And here is where my speculations get me shot.

 

What if gravity is not a force at all? We know that mass distorts space. Think of a cross section of the "Cannon ball on a rubber sheet" idea. Could "gravity" be actually a measure of the distortion rather than a measure of force? (Or a reaction to the distortion?) I had to think for some time to come up with some form of analogy that might explain how we could be measuring one thing while actually measuring another, and here it is.

 

Some chemical reactions generate heat. As we mix them we stick a thermometer in and watch the rise in temperature. We are measuring a change in temperature. Yes we are, but we are also measuring exactly how many molecules of the two reagents are combining with respect to time. The heat rise is an effect, not a cause. It's probably a very poor analogy but I hope you see what I'm getting at.

 

Another analogy that has just occurred to me. A Tension wrench. When I use a tension wrench to tighten a nut am i measuring the force I'm applying to the nut, or the resistence of the nut to the force I'm applying? It can be looked at both ways.

 

Back to curved space.

 

Since the mass of the Sun distorts space then the ship, appearing in the distorted space would feel the effect (gravity) immediately. The smaller distortion caused by the ship propagates outward at c, hence the sun would feel the effect of that small distortion some 8 minutes later. This of course means that c is the maximum speed that a distortion can travel in space, something analogous to the speed of sound being the maximum speed a distortion can travel in air.

 

Since space without mass is flat. (I think.) Then space distorted by mass would perhaps be attempting to become flat again? Think of the cannon ball cross section again. The curve we see is the result of two forces, not one. The ball pressing down and the rubber sheet attempting to become flat again.

 

So gravity could be either A) A measure of the distortion; or B) A measure of the force exerted by space itself to remove the distortion.

 

As far as I can see, the maths used for gravity would still work. It's just that rather than MM/dd being a measure of how many particles/forces are exchanged it becomes a measure of how space is distorted between the two masses. (In the case of the Black Hole the distortion approaches infinity.)

 

The speculation seems to me to be internally consistent. It doesn't appear to violate any Laws or obsevations. It is not counter-intuitive and does not require the existence of any form of magical particles/forces.

 

Once again, this is pure speculation based on my own thoughts and limited knowledge. If the idea has been tried and discarded, I can live with that, just let me know. Any objections, ideas or suggestions welcomed.