The Science of Star Trek

[MolotovCocktail]

Anybody here read the book on it? I've only read a couple of pages of the whole thing, but basically it talks about the possibility of warp drive and a bunch of other technological marvels seen in Star Trek.

 

There is a whole lot to cover but I'm most curious about the energy requirements of Warp Drive, and of course if it is even possible. For those of you who don't know, how warp drive works is that it folds spacetime itself and this allows it to go faster than light, which is otherwise impossible because of the laws stated special relativity. Pretty much, being able to warp spacetime itself would provide a "loophole" around relativity so to speak.

 

Obviously Warp Drive would be able to conveniently solve the problem of interstellar space travel.

 

And then of course there are other marvels such as beaming, replicators, etc.

[bascule]

My favorite bit regarding warp drive was how they'd look out their back window and see stars going backwards when they were going faster than the speed of light.

 

Of course maybe that's part of the crazy spacetime folding bit. It's remotely plausible!

[ecoli]

I have that book... it's a good read, especially if you've seen a lot of the show.

[JohnB]

I've always wondered about "The Economy of Star Trek".

 

Once you have replicator tech, then most economic systems go out the window. How can gold be valuable when anybody can get a ton of it from their home unit? Want the "Star of India"? Just dial it up.

 

How does this effect trade with non-replicator using races? How are people paid? How does Starfleet pay for supplies for it's ships? How do the crew get money when on shore leave?

 

If they replicate the money of the planet, is it counterfeiting?

 

I can't even begin to imagine how such a society would operate economically.

[Sayonara]

Once you have replicator tech, then most economic systems go out the window. How can gold be valuable when anybody can get a ton of it from their home unit? Want the "Star of India"? Just dial it up.

If you want to replicate gold, you still need a significant energy source. This might not be available to everyone, and commodities like gold would remain a useful medium for exchanging value.

 

How does this effect trade with non-replicator using races?

It certainly looks like it would be easier to pay

 

We know from TNG that replicators cannot produce everything exactly (which is a plot device limiter and never had a good scientific explanation), so perhaps replicated gold has a signature that traders can detect with simple scanners.

 

How are people paid? How does Starfleet pay for supplies for it's ships?

According to Picard in First Contact, Starfleet personnel do not get "paid" and ships do not cost money (because the Federation does not use it).

 

Presumably the return on being a Starfleet officer is that (a) you get to do something you really want to do, and (b) you pretty much can have what you like, thanks to replication and being able to travel the galaxy.

 

As for ships, I would assume a combination of replication, having thousands of planets and asteroids in your territory with the required materials, and equal outside trade, all feeding a system manned by people who really really like designing and building ships. And don't forget the all-important robots!

 

How do the crew get money when on shore leave?

The only examples I can think of come from Voyager - we frequently saw crew members bartering or negotiating for supplies and technology they needed. There were one or two instances where we see Janeway fumbling with alien currency, so presumably she acquired this by trading something that was of greater value to an alien buyer than it was to her.

[Pangloss]

At one point in Deep Space Nine Captain Sisko mentions something about his having money from a Starfleet salary. I believe this was about the time that he purchased some land on Bajor.

 

They ran into a lot of problems of this nature during DS9. The engineer and the doctor were always drinking pints at the bar as well, and having to pay for time in the holodeck.

 

I think they just decided after Roddenberry died that they weren't going to be bound by that constraint anymore, but they didn't want to outright flaunt the issue.

[Sayonara]

At one point in Deep Space Nine Captain Sisko mentions something about his having money from a Starfleet salary. I believe this was about the time that he purchased some land on Bajor.

Yes, but he was always boasting to the bitches and none of it made any sense.

 

They ran into a lot of problems of this nature during DS9. The engineer and the doctor were always drinking pints at the bar as well, and having to pay for time in the holodeck.

This could conceivably have been some sort of re-crediting system operated by Starfleet, whereby officers pay in tokens which Quark then redeems against the bar's energy demands on the station.

 

I think they just decided after Roddenberry died that they weren't going to be bound by that constraint anymore, but they didn't want to outright flaunt the issue.

...and then went running back to it in Voyager. Mind you, Bragga and Berman seemed to be confused about a great deal of things, the fools.

[MolotovCocktail]

You know, I also wonder what type of economy they had too. According to current economic theory and psychology, all people demand some sort of pay for their work even if it is their hobby. After all, we have been bartering for goods ever since the prehistoric ages.

 

My guess is, they probably have some sort of socialist system or something. But then again, probably the fact that their were aliens in the galaxy may have forced humans to work together without demanding pay for work, more like a survival thing.

[swansont]

I have a vague recollection from DS9 about gold-pressed latinum being used as an exchange medium, and that it could not be replicated for some nebulous reason.

[Sayonara]

I have a vague recollection from DS9 about gold-pressed latinum being used as an exchange medium, and that it could not be replicated for some nebulous reason.

A preferred medium of high value currency promulgated by the Ferengi. Again, for nebulous reasons which may or may not have had something to do with their economic exchange and pseudo-piratical leanings.

[MolotovCocktail]

I remember seeing an episode of Star Trek TNG in which they were unable to simply replicate a vaccine. They captured Natasha Yar and were threatening to cease trade of some vaccine that they needed (and risk being blown to bits).

[Sayonara]

Yes, the random plot device shortcomings of replicator technology often involve biological materials.

 

Even though a transporter is - gasp - a big replicator.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

It must be Digital Rights Management: The Next Generation.

[Pangloss]

As I understand it they actually had people on staff who knew enough science and engineering to be dangerous, and the script writers would just enter blocks like "<insert technobabble here>" and one of the geeks would fill it in with randomly generated nonsense, which would then be smoothed out to be as consistent as possible with earlier scripts.

 

Mike Okuda used to be a regular on a lot of discussion boards. Not sure if he still does that but I remember many interesting discussions with the guy back on the old GEnie and CompuServe SF boards. He did all the control panels and display screens and a lot of other set design work for all of those shows. I believe he's just about the only person at Paramount still working on Trek (he oversaw the recent HD and computer regeneration of the original series shows).

[Sayonara]

LCARS display panels are informally known as "Okudagrams"

[JohnF]

Even though a transporter is - gasp - a big replicator.

 

Why would anyone get in to one of those things?

 

I'm just going to kill myself so that a copy of me can explore that planet down there. Then he'll kill himself so that another copy can tell you all about it.

[Sayonara]

Convenience.

 

:s

[swansont]

As I understand it they actually had people on staff who knew enough science and engineering to be dangerous, and the script writers would just enter blocks like "<insert technobabble here>" and one of the geeks would fill it in with randomly generated nonsense, which would then be smoothed out to be as consistent as possible with earlier scripts.

 

Mike Okuda used to be a regular on a lot of discussion boards. Not sure if he still does that but I remember many interesting discussions with the guy back on the old GEnie and CompuServe SF boards. He did all the control panels and display screens and a lot of other set design work for all of those shows. I believe he's just about the only person at Paramount still working on Trek (he oversaw the recent HD and computer regeneration of the original series shows).

 

 

I went to high school with the guy who was the science consultant for a few years (and later was on the writing staff). PhD in applied physics, so I doubt he contributed randomly generated nonsense. But the writers did have the final say — a good story would trump technical concerns, and they would edit stuff; sometimes to the point of expunging all of the valid science (this happened with some stuff we had discussed for "Starship Mine")

[Pangloss]

You're right of course, they did their best to bring is as close to science as they could, given the technical framework that existed and the story constraints that were imposed. They did a better job than any show in history, and I'm sure inspired many young people to go into science and/or engineering careers.

[Pangloss]

I'm just going to kill myself so that a copy of me can explore that planet down there. Then he'll kill himself so that another copy can tell you all about it.

 

Right, which always caused me to wonder why they took the time to destroy the shipboard copy. Two is better than one, right?

 

But of course they always maintained this convenient notion that the transporter was different from the replicator in that the transporter didn't create new matter, just transposed existing matter. I believe the idea was that the "pattern buffer" was unable to hold an entire human being in "stasis" for an extended period of time.

 

(Unless of course you looped it through the deflector array, in which case you could store them for 75 years and even revive the careers of aging Starfleet officers, just so long as there was a Dyson Sphere in the vacinity!)

[JohnF]

Right, which always caused me to wonder why they took the time to destroy the shipboard copy. Two is better than one, right?

 

There was an episode where an extra Riker was created. I think his pattern was reflected back to the planet. He didn't know he was a copy though, he thought the buggers had just left him there

 

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68606.html

 

Can you imagine the wage bill for Star Fleet if they didn't destroy the one that steps in the transporter.

[Pangloss]

Yah I think the "confinement beam" bounced off some sort of atmospheric phenomenon.

 

Amusing point about the wages. But of course if they're a moneyless society that just replicates all the food it needs then that wouldn't matter. But I was thinking they'd just leave the copies lying around on the explored planets, or just phaser them from orbit after they deliver their reports. They're only copies, after all -- not "real" humans.

 

Then they could have an episode where they learn all about "copy rights".

[the tree]

Guys, the replicator doesn't create new matter, it simply re-arranges it (as we learned from DS9, when it's running out of iron to use, the cabbages become discoloured) and the teleporter just moves stuff over big distances. Most sci-fi is clever enough not to break the general conservation thing.

[JohnF]

Then they could have an episode where they learn all about "copy rights".

 

Perhaps humans have DRM built in

 

Scotty: The transporters broke Jim; he's stuck in the pattern buffer!

Kirk: Use the one in cargo bay 4.

Scotty: It's no use Cap'n; that ones a Sony, it only takes memory sticks.

[Edtharan]

Scotty: The transporters broke Jim; he's stuck in the pattern buffer!

Kirk: Use the one in cargo bay 4.

Scotty: It's no use Cap'n; that ones a Sony, it only takes memory sticks.

:D :D

 

As a Star Trek fan (I do refrain from calling my self a Trekie or Treker as I am not nearly that fanatical - However I did dress up as Data and enter a float parade - which we won ) I have been fascinated by the replicators more than any other of the technologies as it seems to hold the greatest potential for changing society. Once you have replicator technology, there is no longer any real need for primary produces, except in the case of energy.

 

I think it would be possible to actually make a replicator like device (it wouldn't work the same way as it does in the show, but it would have a very similar effect).

 

Currently we have devices called rapid prototyping, or 3D printers. These seem to be fairly limited in their materials, but are moving in the direction of a replicator.

 

I think the next technology needed to make these into true replicators is nanotechnology.

 

I am not talking about little autonomous nano sized robots whizzing around building things, but nanomanipulators attached on one end to a substrate and the other end is used to shunt around molecules and atoms.

 

This "carpet' of nanmanipulators would move material from "Hoppers" to the "Print Head" of the device and position them where needed as the head scans the surface.

 

The material in the "Hoppers" would be sorted by a similar process in reverse: Taking an object (even a pile of dirt), and breaking it up into it's constituent atoms and molecules and sorting them into the appropriate hoppers for future use.

 

Once you have such a device, then all you need to make more of them is the basic atoms and molecules and "printing" another one. As the basic atoms would be common (carbon, iron, silicon, etc) you could literally just dump some random junk in the sorting hopper and have the final product emerge at the other end with the hardest resource to get being energy (and why not just print your self some solar panels to get that energy while you are at it).

 

If you can manipulate atoms to make molecules, then you could even "Print" a slab of Meat that has never been in a living organism (and a philosophical question is would such an item be acceptable for Vegans?).

 

Such a device would be able to produce any item it is programmed with as long as it has the basic raw materials and a supply of power.

 

It wouldn't have the drawbacks of matter creation using energy (E=MC^2) as it would need far less energy and wouldn't produce a lot of antimatter as waste.

 

It would also be the ultimate recycler as you could just use items that were created by it previously as the raw material to be broken down into atoms for the next item (like to upgrade your computer, you would just throw in your old cpu - with a few handfuls of soil extra for good measure, and press print).

 

SO, this could make food as well as luxuries all from rubbish that would end up in the landfills.

 

Admittedly there is a lot of practical problems to overcome to get a device like this working, but the real advantage comes once you have that first device capable of creating its self (or improvements). Once you reach this threshold point the rest is free sailing.

 

( I've though too much on this haven't I )