Prove the temperature during the time of the dinosaurs or before

[Edtharan]

The Spiral Ramp is another theory but even with proto pulleys the ramp doesn't work. There is nowhere to place the pulley to bring the sled to the corner of the ramp so that it can be turned.

There is. Just on the outside edge of the ramp. You don't need to pull the block around the pully, just move it far enough out into the corner to then attach ropes to drag it in another direction (along the next leg of the ramp).

Here is a quick drawnign of what I mean:

 

Where the GP messes up theories is in the time taken to build the damn thing. 2,500,000 stones cut, moved, laid and finished in 20 years. That is 125,000 blocks per year. If they only worked 6 months of the year (During the flood times) then that is 20,833 blocks per month. Call it a 31 day month (it wasn't) then it's 672 blocks per day. If working a 10 hour day (these were workers remember, not slaves) then that's 67 blocks per hour, more than 1 a minute. No theory using ramps has yet been able to demonstrate that it would allow for this sort of speed.

That does seem like a good point. However, not all the stones were precisely cut and laid. Only the stones on the facings and the structural components (the tombs and such) where actually the large stones. Much of the pyramid structure would be "fill". These could be carted up in by workers and dumped into place. This would drastically increase the speed that the volume of the structure could be filled in. They would not have just constructed the mass of the pyramid of cut stone as it would be completely unnecessary and a waste of time.

 

Using "Fill" instead of cut stone for the bulk of the pyramid can then be handled with "bucket chains" and can actually be very quick in filling the volume with rubble.

 

One thing to note is that quarrying all the stone for the pyramids would have produced a lot of rubble (off cuts, flakes, etc) and these would be perfect for filling the pyramid.

 

Also (I'm not sure about this, so if you know otherwise correct me): If they didn't use this rubble from the quarries to fill the pyramids, where is it. It would have left vast spoil heaps of these off cuts and I have never heard that such locations have been found. The rubble has to have gone some where, and where better that to use it to fill in the insides of the pyramid.

 

There is still the problem of quarrying. If I may quote from the Wiki article.

If the blocks are arriving regularly, then it doesn't matter how long it took to get them there. Also, if you were using manual labour to haul each stone, if one stone is delayed, then it only delays that stone, where as if a train is delayed and it is carrying 20 stones, then that means that 20 stones are delayed and that because the train then has to return and transport more stones, it means that this then has knock on effects over the entire project time line. The method for building the pyramid more closely resembles the Just in time production methodology that is now being implemented more and more in modern production.

 

It is the differences between carting them individually and using a limited number of trains that carry many stones that makes these delays much more significant in modern methods.

 

Also, with manual labour, people can be reassigned. If a block is delayed, then the people that were to cart it up the pyramid can be immediately sent off to fetch another stone so that the gap can be quickly filled. With trains, this can not occur. If a train is delayed, then the people that were to place those stones can't be just reassigned to pick up more stones. They just have to sit around and wait for the next load to come in.

 

A construction management study (testing) carried out by the firm Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall in association with Mark Lehner and other Egyptologists, estimates that the total project required an average workforce of 14,567 people and a peak workforce of 40,000. Without the use of pulleys, wheels, or iron tools, they surmise the Great Pyramid was completed from start to finish in approximately 10 years.[5'] Their critical path analysis study reveals estimates that the number of blocks used in construction was between 2-2.8 million (an average of 2.4 million), but settles on a reduced finished total of 2 million after subtracting the estimated area of the hollow spaces of the chambers and galleries.

Well these guys estimated that it could be done in 10 years with period equipment, so by the sounds of it, it could be done well within 20 years.

 

If you also factor in that they didn't use the high quality stones for the non visible parts and used rubble to fill in more hollow spaces, it is beginning to look like they were quite proficient at building them and could feasibly do it without invoking an outside agent.

[JohnB]

There is. Just on the outside edge of the ramp. You don't need to pull the block around the pully, just move it far enough out into the corner to then attach ropes to drag it in another direction (along the next leg of the ramp).

Here is a quick drawnign of what I mean:

I like it. Simple and elegant. But would it be fast enough? You've got to get a block per minute around the corner.

 

Re "Fill". There is no evidence that the pyramids used fill of any type. Echo sounding and the like have all shown the core to be comprised of blocks of limestone. (I believe radar was tried, but for some reason it wouldn't give a picture. ) These blocks need to be fitted together almost as perfectly as the facing blocks because otherwise blocks would crush under the weight and the pyramid would collapse. If you look at this page, the photos show damage going in a number of courses and it's still blocks of limestone.

 

From what we think we know of the AE quarrying techniques, they were quite economical. I have reference photos of the quarries at Giza and it is quite plain that the techniques employed resulted in almost perfect blocks from the start. Flikr has a photo here showing a quarry at Giza. Note the precision used that would have resulted in minimal rubble. Perhaps what rubble there was was used to create the rather large quays down by the Nile that recieved the Tura Limestone and Aswan granite?

 

Another possibility is that much of the rubble was used for the Mastabas of the Pharoah's nobles. Most people think of Giza as 3 pyramids and a Sphinx but if you look at a satellite photo, the Necropolis is huge. If you look at it on Google Earth, the Mastaba fields to east and west of the GP are immense. Also look at the smallest pyramid, Menkaura's, you will notice the large gash on it's north face. This damage was done by an "Archaeologist" who considered dynamite a legitimate digging tool. His damage does however let us see a good distance into the core of that particular pyramid.

 

It is also possible that they were used over the centuries as stone or foundation fill for other buildings in the Nile Delta. The Pyramids themselves have been used as a quarry for quite some time. Your question of "Where is the rubble?" is still a valid one however and AFAIK no large deposits have been found.

 

The problem I have with Mark Lehner et al is that every single time an archaeologists ideas of the construction methods has been tried, it has failed dismally. When there was partial success it got scaled up rediculously. "Look, we moved this 1 ton rock this way, so all we need are more people and we can move a 70 ton rock." Any engineer will tell you, it don't work that way. So a totally unproven construction hypothesis is used as a basis for the information given to a management consultancy and estimates of the workforce needed is arrived at. GIGO.

If you also factor in that they didn't use the high quality stones for the non visible parts and used rubble to fill in more hollow spaces, it is beginning to look like they were quite proficient at building them and could feasibly do it without invoking an outside agent.

I hope you don't think I'm suggesting an outside agent? I simply think our ancestors were as bright as we are but thought differently. We think in terms of pulleys and wheels because that is what we have to use. The 4 th dynasty didn't have pulleys and the wheel was barely invented. (Circa 3200 BC in Mesopotamia, possibly later. This allows 700 years for the idea to get to Egypt of putting round things under carts so they move but remember that the Potter's Wheel was invented about 400 years before the wheel. 400 years of watching this thing go round and round before someone thought to use it under a vehicle.)

 

Since they didn't have wheels and pulleys they evolved different ways of doing things, different technologies. And short of someone inventing a time machine, I doubt we will ever work out how they did it. We think too differently these days.

[JohnF]

What if there was a smaller pyramid near by and they recycled that first before adding more stones?

 

As for evidence of a smaller pyramid; well perhaps they were very good at recycling and landscaping.

[JohnB]

What if there was a smaller pyramid near by and they recycled that first before adding more stones?

Two reasons. Firstly the quarries for most of the limestone are on the Giza plateau and there is very little room for the "source" pyramid to have been. Secondly the "source" pyramid would have to have been made by an earlier Pharoah who had one to "spare".

 

Khufu brought the pyramid to Giza, all earlier ones were at Saqqara some distance to the south. The Egyptians were great recyclers of stone but the "Pyramid Era" lasted less than 200 years. All ancient cultures recyled material but usually when the original building had lost it's meaning. In the case of the Pharoahs it would mean desecrating the tomb of their grandfather. This made the recycling of an earlier pyramid impossible.

 

As a side note. The first "Stepped Pyramid" at Saqqara was Djosers, designed by Imhotep. This is believed to be the first large scale stone construction. Ever. Should this be true, then Baalbek dates from a period later than Djoser (2667-2648 BC.) If that is the case, then where are the records of such a culture in Lebanon?