How would YOU build the Temple of Jupiter?

[JohnF]

Let's say that all of these people who are lifting are pretty tough and can lift 200 lbs. each.

800 tons, 1,600,000 lbs., that's 8,000 tough guys that have to all somehow get in there to lift it.

 

If they use steel cable and iron compound pullies, that will probably cut down on the weight factor. Of course, the pulley will have to be attached to an iron hoist with an iron track for the pulley to slide down. The amount of rope necessary to lift 800 tons is unconscionable.

 

This is not a fair comparison. Firstly we should only discuss the stones that were moved; the 300 ton ones. It may be that the 800 ton stone proved to be to heavy to move.

 

They would only have to lift a little over half the weight of the stone; say 180 tons, not 300 tons. insane_alien suggests wooden levers for this so this reduces the amount of force that needs to be applied; although the lever pivot points do have to support the 180 tons between them and they need to get a sufficient number of levers at one end of the stone.

[Realitycheck]

they don't have to lift it. they only have to lever up on side by a few centimeters/inches. its not as if they're just using their fingers. look up levers and why wheel barrows allow you to lift heavy objects.

 

That's semi-doable. Someone else led me to believe that this was bronze-age, but in the Middle East, iron age started around 1000 BC.

[insane_alien]

well, the pivot point doesn't need to be anything fancy, it could be a rock, bit of wood, whatever. as long as its high enough. and you can have multiple pivot points, one for each lever. and you can have as many levers as you can cram in. its not infeasable.

[Realitycheck]

This is not a fair comparison. Firstly we should only discuss the stones that were moved; the 300 ton ones. It may be that the 800 ton stone proved to be to heavy to move.

 

They would only have to lift a little over half the weight of the stone; say 180 tons, not 300 tons. insane_alien suggests wooden levers for this so this reduces the amount of force that needs to be applied; although the lever pivot points do have to support the 180 tons between them and they need to get a sufficient number of levers at one end of the stone.

 

The blocks on the second level are 800 tons, with the 300 ton stones on the first level, just to prove to us how smart they were out of spite.

[insane_alien]

yeah, because people 3000 years ago totally hated us.

[JohnF]

The blocks on the second level are 800 tons, with the 300 ton stones on the first level, just to prove to us how smart they were out of spite.

 

In that case they would need to lift between 450 and 500 tons with levers. This makes it less likely but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it.

 

I think for these 800 ton stones they may well have used the wedge method to lift them.

 

insane_alien: The pivot point is not just the point on which the length of timber rests, it is also the point on the timber where it is in contact with the rock. The timber may not have the tension and torsion strength to provide a high enough yield stength to lift such a weight.

[Realitycheck]

Well really if they had iron-working capabilities 900 years prior to the construction of it, this really opens up lots of possibilities. The profession could have developed quite a bit over 900 years, to the point where they actually could have developed sturdy iron hoists, iron pullies, iron rollers, iron picks, iron rasps, and who knows what else.

[insane_alien]

it doesn't need iron. wood will get the job done.

 

johnF; yeah, i know, which is why you use lots of wood. not some little pieces either.

[Realitycheck]

Oh yeah, JohnF, you were right. The 800 ton blocks of stone were hoisted about 30 feet in the air, looking at this picture. Why would they put the largest blocks on top of the stack? I think Carl Sagan has something to say about this.

 

How would you place an 800 ton block of stone with precision on top of a stack of other stones that are considerably smaller without toppling them or making them shift around all over the place. Surely, it was a 1,200 ton capacity Gottwald AK912 strut jib crane, complete with crawler tracks.

 

 

Excavating deeper, the other great mystery was found. Perfectly cut, though smaller, stones were found. The megaliths were not designed as the foundation of the original building, but were meant to be the top. Why? What for? The stones of the Roman temple can be seen built behind and on top of them.

[JohnF]

Why would they put the largest blocks on top of the stack?

 

The reason they did this is because they learned how to move larger blocks. They started by cutting out the largest blocks they thought they could move. This taught them enough to realise they could move even larger blocks. Cutting out 3 very large blocks is more efficient than cutting out 6 blocks of half the length. As long as the effort required cut out and move 3 very large blocks is less than the effort to cut out and move 6 smaller ones then it makes sense. The cutting out process is much more time consuming than the moving process.

 

As for placing them without toppling the other blocks. That will have been done by sliding them off whatever platform was constructed during the lifting process. Whether they used levers or wedges to lift them there would still be a need for a support structure to grow beneath them. To aid in sliding them they may have used sand or grit to act as a lubricant. They would have probably slid one end of the stone on to the others first before sliding the other end on rather than trying to slide the whole 800 ton stone on in one movement.

 

It is very unlikely they will have used a 1,200 ton capacity Gottwald AK912 Strut Jib Crane though as they would have to first find oil and learn how to refine it. There is no archaeological evidence of crane manufacturing facilities for that time period either. And who would provide the third party liability insurance?

 

As for one being taken back in time that would go against the Temporal Prime Directive and Starfleet would have taken action to correct the anomaly.

[Realitycheck]

Greetings, my esteemed colleagues. After further investigating the potential for Iron Age Man to erect 800 ton blocks of granite 30 feet high on a wall, I am behooved to share my findings with you. While some may be afraid of the truth and try to quash it, as has been done so many times in antiquity, I feel that it is of the utmost importance to achieve closure on this matter, in order to properly deliver the truth in it purest form, as every like-minded scientist would agree.

 

I have put 55 Structural Engineers to the test, engaging them in dialogue about the potential for these feats to be done, without the interference of time travel and transwarp and extraterrestrial technologies. Needless to say, they are all stumped.

 

 

http://www.cseforum.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=822

[MrSandman]

I would build it just like the great pyramides. Have the aliens help me.

[JohnB]

Agentchange, one thing to remember.

 

Because of the architectural style and adornments we can say with certainty that the Temple of Jupiter is of Roman construction. The same cannot be said for the foundation stones.

 

This type of unadorned megalithic work has more in common with the Sphinx Temple and The Osirion in Egypt than Roman construction. It may be that the Romans found the foundations in place and decided to build their temple on top as a symbol of Roman power. (I'll have to do some checking but iirc there is something "odd" about the dimensions of the temple itself that might imply that the temple was designed to fit a pre-existing base.)

 

Pangloss has more detailed knowledge than I do about the Empire. He might be able to comment as to whether the discovery of the foundations might drive the Romans to co-opt the site as a demonstration of Roman Power.

 

If the Romans did indeed occupy a pre-existing site then the question of the foundation construction becomes harder. If the foundations are much older than the temples we have the problems that the construction technology gets more primitive and there is a lack of any evidence of an organized society capable of undertaking such work.

 

Either way you come up against the bizarre lack of records which reduces any theory to a "Best Guess" scenario.

 

One thought has just occurred to me. The Egyptians had a practice of expunging references to those they considered evil (or just plain very wrong) Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) being the classic example. His cartouche was chiseled off stela and his name erased from Egyptian historical records. I wonder if the later Roman Emperors had a similar habit? "Emperor So and So built the Temple but I hate his family and rather than offending Jupiter by knocking down the Temple I'll simply have the records of it's construction destroyed and noone will know it even exists."

[Realitycheck]

30 feet(10 meters) wouldn't be a complicated lift. just need lots of wood, manpower and patience.

 

 

Do you realize how much 800 tons is? We're talking about 3 747's all bunched up into one block of stone.

[insane_alien]

yes i do realise how much 800tons is. and i know that you never have to apply 800tons of force anywhere to lift it. levers are a wonerful thing.

[MrSandman]

You know there's a actually theory about aliens, right? I think it is rediculous, but it is an easy way out.

[foodchain]

I think it was most likely a combinatorial feat that managed the construction of such things. such as existing technologies/methodologies with say maybe 400+ horses pulling it with maybe people pushing. IT was a different culture and subsequently it did not have as many subterfuges as today does. Something like this building would have been a spectacle of high gravity/importance in production.

[Realitycheck]

The thing with the lever is that you have to have something strong enough to be a lever, you have to somehow lift 800 tons to fit the lever under it - no small feat, the list really goes on and on. I just don't see it, especially taking it up 30 ft. high.

 

Then there is the next issue. Why? Out of spite? Out of incredibly immense faith in the god of lightning bolts - been there, done that - never got anything out of it. Why not just say, "Hey! It doesn't really neeeed to be 800 frickin tons! Why not 200 tons? Why not 1 ton? Why not an iron-fortified, cement infiltrated brick wall?

 

Possibly because the GOD OF THE SKY DEMANDS THAT YOU DO!!!!!!!!!! (In a really loud, magnetic, gravitating, subliminal kind of way, a harmony with nature kind of thing.) Of course, any generic psychologist will tell him, "What the frick are you talking about?" I wonder if Zeus explained to him how to do it.

 

So anyway, I know a bit about the exobiology arguments. The numbers support the possibility that extraterrestrial technology was brought more than the possibility that mankind somehow erected this all by his lonesome, in my opinion. After all, the universe is really, really old, and we have LOTS of Star Trek episodes. The one thing that really sticks out though is this. Why leave the best place to live on this side of the galaxy? A little flood? Flooding over and over and over till they leave? This is beyond the scope of this thread.

[fattyjwoods]

ok?....

[insane_alien]

The thing with the lever is that you have to have something strong enough to be a lever, you have to somehow lift 800 tons to fit the lever under it - no small feat, the list really goes on and on. I just don't see it, especially taking it up 30 ft. high.

not really, well positioned pivots and levers could conveivably spread to load enough to move it even with small weak levers(and if that doesn't work, use more than one.) and remember, you don't need to lift it the full 30ft at once, you could do a couple of inches at a time and take a few weeks about it.

Then there is the next issue. Why? Out of spite? Out of incredibly immense faith in the god of lightning bolts - been there, done that - never got anything out of it. Why not just say, "Hey! It doesn't really neeeed to be 800 frickin tons! Why not 200 tons? Why not 1 ton? Why not an iron-fortified, cement infiltrated brick wall?

 

to say they can lift massive stuff? why build skyscrapers over 500ft? we don't need to. why not lots of shorter ones? we are guilty of the same showing off. every engineer in the world wants to show off(eg, my tower's bigger than yours, my machine is more efficient than yours, my car can go faster than yours etc. etc. this is really what us engineers want to do so we can brag to other lesser engineers)

 

So anyway, I know a bit about the exobiology arguments. The numbers support the possibility that extraterrestrial technology was brought more than the possibility that mankind somehow erected this all by his lonesome, in my opinion. After all, the universe is really, really old, and we have LOTS of Star Trek episodes. The one thing that really sticks out though is this. Why leave the best place to live on this side of the galaxy? A little flood? Flooding over and over and over till they leave? This is beyond the scope of this thread.

 

what the frick are you talking about 'the numbers support it'? i see an engineering problem the people constructing it would have had the necessary materials(wood) and the intelligence and resources to overcome. just because some people can't imagine doing it(usually because of inadequate knowledge) doesn't mean that a race of aliens decide to pop down and help the poor backwards natives lift a rock.

[Realitycheck]

Thanks. Things really don't add up very well when factoring in e.t. anyway.

 

Which reinstates the position that the Romans are the only ones that could have ever done it, well maybe not. Nobody else would ever go to the length and expense of building this, but why would they do something on this scale all the way out in BFE? (sounds like a good place for little extraterrestrial hideaway to command lightning bolts from) SEE THIS! IMHOTEP WAS HERE! (but you will never know)

[Realitycheck]

(Drum roll ...)

 

Mega Movers right now, History channel

 

They are going to show how these 1,000 ton blocks were moved.

[CaptainPanic]

(Drum roll ...)

 

Mega Movers right now, History channel

 

They are going to show how these 1,000 ton blocks were moved.

 

Well? I obviously don't have the same cable connection as you (I'm probably on a different continent), but I do share the same curiosity. How did they move those blocks?

 

p.s. To answer the thread title: I'd use hovercraft technology. You'd need about 2 bar absolute pressure (1 bar overpressure) to lift such a block. That's a pressure that you might even achieve with a bellows. (A lot of them).

[J.C.MacSwell]

how would I do it using their technology?

 

simple, you use sand/rocks and build it up so you`re always working at Ground level, then when you`ve put all the top parts on, you take away the sand and rocks to leave your structure.

 

Hardly Rocket Science!

 

But it is "Rock it" science!

[npts2020]

But it is "Rock it" science!

 

Herbie Hancock would be proud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(for those womdering.....he wrote a great song called Rock It