Rap verses Rock

[ParanoiA]

In light of the wholesale attack on the gang culture hip hop music industry...

 

Ok, so I can't help but to remember when my mom and dad shook their heads at my music - heavy metal. Lyrically speaking about death, politics, manipulation, drugs, sex and etc. And we did do drugs and sex and carried a fatalistic attitude about everything.

 

But, without heavy metal, I still would have done the same things - music was a compliment to my attitude, it didn't shape it. And, arguably, I needed an outlet to my frustrations being a teenager and all ( Hey, it's tough when you know everything but grown-ups won't listen to you...)

 

My position has always been that music doesn't influence us, but rather fits with us. Why does rap not feel the same? Am I being a hypocrite for not granting the same opinion here?

 

Without rap, there would still be the same anti-establishment, pro-drug, pro-crime, anti-intellect, self defeating culture - it was there before rap got popular.

 

But does it not draw some people into that mentallity that otherwise wouldn't? After all, middle class white kids are running around with pants around their ankles, hoodies (in summer), crooked ball caps and the classic cool cat strut with gangbanger rap music as their centerpiece. These kids haven't been wronged by "the man". They have zero history with crooked cops and getto life - they seem to just enjoy the "anti" culture.

 

So, are some of us being old, tight assed adults, resistant to change and disgusted with "the next generation", misplacing and misunderstanding our youth the way we were misunderstood? Or is rap truly different - destructive - beyond the "anti" cultures in the past??

[the tree]

I'd be interested to know if there is a particular genre of music that doesn't have songs about sex, drugs and violence. Or even has very few songs on those topics.

 

Teenagers like counter-culture, it's what teenagers do. Hoodies are comfy.

[Dak]

But does it not draw some people into that mentallity that otherwise wouldn't? After all, middle class white kids are running around with pants around their ankles, hoodies (in summer), crooked ball caps and the classic cool cat strut with gangbanger rap music as their centerpiece. These kids haven't been wronged by "the man". They have zero history with crooked cops and getto life - they seem to just enjoy the "anti" culture.

 

so? nothing you described there (stupid attire, stupid locomotion, and crap musical taste) are actually bad. are these middle-class white kids also going around 'raping hos' or 'shooting pigs', or whatever the music is about?

 

rebelling, being different, and not adhering to what are percieved as arbritrary rules of society is part of being a kid. wether that expresses itself by listening to rock (with it's 'sex and drugs are cool' **** the system overtures) or rap (with it's... well, 'sex and drugs are cool' **** the system overtures) is pretty irrelevent.

 

actually, even as an adult, i'd have to agree that sex and drugs are cool (as in fun), and the system can **** off imo.

 

maybe, tho, rap is somewhat questionable because it superficially seems to promote bigoted views -- 'us v them' black/white mentality, and derogatory views of da hoes. metal seems to accept illegality and violence; rap seems to encourage it.

 

take ye olde punk for another example. whilst i like the music, the actual scene seems repulsive to me, due to the whole 'we're nazis just to piss you off' themes. so maybe rap is offensive not just because of the good old-fashioned disreguard for the law and swearage, but because of the percieved genuinely obnoxious bigotry? (another example: goth is more objectionable than rock/metal, due to it's percieved satanism)

[GutZ]

Well all mainstream gangsta rap horrible, that is for sure....

 

...and I listen to rap music.

[Pangloss]

I just want to know how censoring music will stop children from being disrespectful towards women. Isn't it likely that the music mirrors the reality, rather than the other way around?

[ParanoiA]

so? nothing you described there (stupid attire, stupid locomotion, and crap musical taste) are actually bad. are these middle-class white kids also going around 'raping hos' or 'shooting pigs', or whatever the music is about?

 

I didn't mean that they were bad, except for the last characteristic - the gangsta music. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

Middle class white kids copying this black gang culture. Kids that haven't experienced the crap life that helped to foster this culture in the first place. So, can the music really be said to "represent" them - such as in the way of metal, that I grew up on?

 

I think they're drawn to it due to the "counter", and not really much else. I mean, how does it relate with them?

 

The music I listened to was reflective of my personality - the fighting with my parents, the anti-establishment - the ole "plastic world" theology. Drugs and sex find their way into everything in the youth and I associate this aspect of it as reflective - including its role in hip hop.

 

But the "ho's" and the violence..geez. There was no part of my personality that wanted to demean women or kill people. So any music that did such, never really fit.

 

Have I answered my own question, effectively? Are kids nowadays just really attracted to thoughtless violence and misogynistc bigotry? And so naturally this music compliments their personality?

[Sisyphus]

Kids these days with their devil music. I knew not outlawing jazz was a mistake.

[Dak]

I didn't mean that they were bad, except for the last characteristic - the gangsta music. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

Middle class white kids copying this black gang culture. Kids that haven't experienced the crap life that helped to foster this culture in the first place. So, can the music really be said to "represent" them - such as in the way of metal, that I grew up on?

 

I think they're drawn to it due to the "counter", and not really much else. I mean, how does it relate with them?

 

The music I listened to was reflective of my personality - the fighting with my parents, the anti-establishment - the ole "plastic world" theology. Drugs and sex find their way into everything in the youth and I associate this aspect of it as reflective - including its role in hip hop.

 

But the "ho's" and the violence..geez. There was no part of my personality that wanted to demean women or kill people. So any music that did such, never really fit.

 

Have I answered my own question, effectively? Are kids nowadays just really attracted to thoughtless violence and misogynistc bigotry? And so naturally this music compliments their personality?

 

i kinda see what you're saying.

 

I'm the same with metal and rock. i genuinely like the music, and i also like the spirit, because I allready feel that way.

 

I guess, with the demeaning women and violence (puts armchair psychology hat on) it might just be something about 'being a man' and feeling the need to assert ones dominance, by screwing hoes and fighting off competing males; hence, it appeals to the animalistic side of people.

 

if you grew up on metal, then you must have experienced something vaguely similar in the mosh pit -- i've allways been a pasafist, but i also allways enjoyed the violence and aggression in a mosh pit, as a release for the inclination towards violence that i feel (but usually control) as a human/man.

 

maybe all the posing, ponsing, 'hoes are for shagging', and violence in rap is another (possibly less controlled) outlet for this?

 

mind, i'm making assumptions about rap here; i don't know enough to actually be sure of the level of violence and demeaning of women in rap (just the apparent level)

[YT2095]

Rock Every Day! it`s Far far far superior to this rape "music", in fact you can`t even classify this Rape garbage AS Music.

 

if an offense to the ears and the intellect.

[Dak]

are you being ironic?

[YT2095]

[the tree]

ParanioA, can you think of any particular reason why rap, rather than any other genre would be having a greater influence of teenagers? Anything about the music in particular?

[Pangloss]

Carl Sagan used to say that the oldest scrap of written parchment known to man was a ten thousand year old Sumarian fragment that said something to the effect of "these kids these days don't respect their elders". (grin)

 

(I think it was in "The Demon-Haunted World.")

[Haezed]

1. No one is talking about censoring rap in these threads. We are talking about whether those who profit from it are socially responsible.

 

2. While each generation's job is to shock the older generation, some lines should be drawn by our socieity (no, not by the government) with respect to lyrics which are racist, pro-Nazi or misogynist. We debate about where the line should be drawn but IMO those three categories are on the other side to any thinking person.

[ParanoiA]

1. No one is talking about censoring rap in these threads. We are talking about whether those who profit from it are socially responsible.

 

Right...glad you're on board. In this thread we're talking about if the gangbanger hip hop music industry is really any different than the "**** the man" music we listened to in our youth.

 

2. While each generation's job is to shock the older generation, some lines should be drawn by our socieity (no, not by the government) with respect to lyrics which are racist, pro-Nazi or misogynist. We debate about where the line should be drawn but IMO those three categories are on the other side to any thinking person.

 

True, but how can they shock us when we've practically wrung all of the shock we can muster up til now? I'm not advocating that, I'm just suggesting that maybe these three categories are the line we're drawing - whereas our parents had similar black and white lines drawn that divided our music. They probably used similar terminology and passion behind their arguments.

 

Hmmm..maybe they were right? Maybe 100 generations ago we shouldn't have pushed any further and we wouldn't be at this point? Just a thought...

[the tree]

I'm not really sure what you mean by "gangbanger hip hop", clearly I'm not down with the same lingo as you kids.

 

But anyway, taking a quick skim through my music collection there seems to be fuck the man content throughout, be the songs centuries old or released some time this year. I can't see anything especially different about the small amount of rap music that I've got to the general mish-mash of folk and blues that makes up the majority of my collection. So I'd say they're not that different at all, unless anyone can point out some difference that I'm missing?

 

In terms of how they can shock us still, it's up to the next generation to work out how they're going to shock me and goddamit I'm looking forward to it.

[ParanoiA]

But anyway, taking a quick skim through my music collection there seems to be **** the man content throughout, be the songs centuries old or released some time this year. I can't see anything especially different about the small amount of rap music that I've got to the general mish-mash of folk and blues that makes up the majority of my collection. So I'd say they're not that different at all, unless anyone can point out some difference that I'm missing?

 

In terms of how they can shock us still, it's up to the next generation to work out how they're going to shock me and goddamit I'm looking forward to it.

 

I love that last sentence. You know what's so hard for me about this thread? Music is my life. I LOVE "**** the man" music. I've got CD's full of "**** the man" music - that I wrote myself.

 

My favorite musicians are the rebels - John Lennon at the top. I still have that childish anti-establishment mentallity musically. The stuff I'm writing now is directed at religion and any human conditioning that restricts free thought and logic.

 

So, I absolutely sympathize with the counter culture presented in this stuff. I just wonder if it's gone too far, OR, if I'm being intolerant based on the misogyny and promotion of violence.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "gangbanger hip hop", clearly I'm not down with the same lingo as you kids.

 

Well I'm not either. A co-worker has recently revoked my "ghetto card" when I mistook "Hen" for "chicks" instead of "Henessee Whiskey".

 

But, what I'm talking about is kind of hip hop that's all about slapping and pimping bitches and ho's, crack and 'the game', pro gang, pro violent lyrics.

 

We're not talking about Eminem - he cracks me up. Seems to be more of a self depricating kind of humor. I'm not attacking rap - nor it's propensity for shock language. That's all good in my book. Just the stuff that abandons art or poetry of any kind and promotes the worst of human behavior and bigotry.

 

You can't accept that and fire Imus. At least not without being a flaming hypocrite.

[Sisyphus]

Do any of you guys actually listen to rap? I don't either. But it seems sometimes like 98% of the criticism you hear comes from positions of basic ignorance. I've made similar criticisms in the past, and as a result been forced to listen to some that actually had a lot of depth and poetry. Maybe not in everything (much of its on intellectual par with typicially successful rock or pop, i.e. vapid nonsense), but even the dumbest songs about guns, niggaz and hos are probably a lot more tongue in cheek, intentionally hyperbolic, and self-aware than you realize.

 

Just something to keep in mind...

[the tree]

So, I absolutely sympathize with the counter culture presented in this stuff. I just wonder if it's gone too far, OR, if I'm being intolerant based on the misogyny and promotion of violence. [...]

But, what I'm talking about is kind of hip hop that's all about slapping and pimping bitches and ho's, crack and 'the game', pro gang, pro violent lyrics.

There is tons and tons of music that romanticises and trivialises warfare and violence, but this isn't by any means exclusive to hip-hop. A lot of older stuff refers to wars that are long gone and seem somewhat distant, perhaps <armchair psychology, I apologise> you only see hip-hop as going to far because it refers to something that seems a lot more real.

Or maybe you're just getting old, I dunno.

Do any of you guys actually listen to rap?

Yes. Kanye West, for example, is one of my favourite modern artists and it's true, he really does talk about violence drugs and women.

[ParanoiA]

Do any of you guys actually listen to rap? I don't either. But it seems sometimes like 98% of the criticism you hear comes from positions of basic ignorance. I've made similar criticisms in the past, and as a result been forced to listen to some that actually had a lot of depth and poetry. Maybe not in everything (much of its on intellectual par with typicially successful rock or pop, i.e. vapid nonsense), but even the dumbest songs about guns, niggaz and hos are probably a lot more tongue in cheek, intentionally hyperbolic, and self-aware than you realize.

 

Just something to keep in mind...

 

Not regularly, but I enjoy all kinds of music. Rap has never really grabbed me. Rythym without melody is hard for me to appreciate. Also, I've always been turned off by the "attitude" factor - basically somebody rapping about how bad ass they are, song after song after song. That's just not my thing. Any music with that approach is going to be hard for me to listen to, but I do it because I'm always looking for something new.

 

That said, I'm still fairly ignorant to most of the artists being talking about here. It might be all of those things you said. If nothing else, I think we can at least deduce it's indicative of the interests of our youth. Now that I'm a parent, that matters alot...

 

BTW, anyone heard the new NIN yet?

[the tree]

[Rhythm] without melody is hard for me to appreciate.

I find just thinking of it as spoken word that happens to have a drum beat accompanying it helps with the I'm-listening-to-music-therefore-where's-my-melody tendency that you get from being brought up on rock music. Lots of mainstream rap tends to have melodic choruses now anyway.

Also, I've always been turned off by the "attitude" factor - basically somebody rapping about how bad ass they are, song after song after song.

That's a pretty huge generalisation, sure there is plenty of Snoop-Doggy-God-esque "I'm totally superior to other musicians" rap music but a hell of a lot of it is a lot more humble and contemplative.

Now that I'm a parent, that matters alot...

maybe you're just getting old

^^

BTW, anyone heard the new NIN yet?

I can't get into Industrial metal, all melody and no rhythm

[Pangloss]

1. No one is talking about censoring rap in these threads. We are talking about whether those who profit from it are socially responsible.

 

Ok, but I want to point out that just a few months ago Hillary Clinton was talking about government censorship of video games if the industry's self-policing efforts aren't improved.

 

Given the need for moderate support for a Democratic victory in November 2008, and the current make-up of Congress, it's not hard to read the writing on that wall.

[ParanoiA]

maybe you're just getting old

 

Ok, that's twice now. 3rd time, we're dualing at 10 paces...

 

I can't get into Industrial metal, all melody and no rhythm

 

Nice try... NIN with no rhythm? I don't think so...

[the tree]

Ok, but I want to point out that just a few months ago Hillary Clinton was talking about government censorship of video games if the industry's self-policing efforts aren't improved.

Really, really lets keep on track. This thread is about whether the contents of rap music is a good/bad/OK thing, not what should be done about it, and certainly not about video games.

[Pangloss]

Do any of you guys actually listen to rap? I don't either. But it seems sometimes like 98% of the criticism you hear comes from positions of basic ignorance. I've made similar criticisms in the past, and as a result been forced to listen to some that actually had a lot of depth and poetry. Maybe not in everything (much of its on intellectual par with typicially successful rock or pop, i.e. vapid nonsense), but even the dumbest songs about guns, niggaz and hos are probably a lot more tongue in cheek, intentionally hyperbolic, and self-aware than you realize.

 

Just something to keep in mind...

 

Very self-aware, but I question whether it is as self-criticizing as, say, violent movies or other forms of entertainment. For example, movies and television shows often portray drug abuse, but if you watch the story the end result is negative, not positive -- the abuser ends up dead or in jail (or saved because he gave it up). I don't know that that's nearly as prevalent a theme in rap music. I have heard examples of it. But I've also heard the opposite -- pure glorification, without a down side.

 

But maybe I just haven't heard enough of it to judge it fairly.

 

I don't advocate censorship, but I think full disclosure is valuable.