Our President's Precedent

[jadote]

That's not a cop-out, that's me trying to guess at the reasons Bush presented to the media for starting the war. Notice each statement uses the present and past tense, which I admit is a little confusing. I couldn't decide whether to state it how the administration saw it back then, or as to how they would defend themselves now. Was I wrong?

 

I am still waiting for you to answer how exactly Iraq was a threat to the US

[jadote]

Ah, now I see what you are getting at Fafalone, disregard the last post. So you're saying that the link that we based a war on has been established after the war has been fought and declared over by the President?

[fafalone]

This is evidence that a link exists, and and theres simply nothing at this point that would indicate that this link didn't exist in the past.

[ignrnceprevails]

this may be straying from the subject, but why are US operatives training an iraqi CIA? some may say this will be beneficial, but what happened to "those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it (well its something like that)?" we gave iraq weapons for the iraq-iran war, then they used them on us...so why would we once again give them this training? just a thought

[jadote]

I wouldn't call that article 'evidence'. All it says is that they captured an Al-Qaida operative in Iraq. It doesn't provide a connection between Hussein or his government and Al-Qaida. Plus, it says "Hasan Ghul reported directly to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed". That's very vague, and Ghul really can't be described as 'high-ranking' from this article.

 

To quote President Bush, "We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. Some al Qaeda leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq." Why hasn't the US produced these leaders, or found evidence of the high-level contacts?

[Skye]

Al Qaeda said a couple of months ago (a little before Saddam was captured) that they were moving a portion of their operatives to Iraq from the Aghanistan/Pakistan border to take advantage of the easier kills there. Posted a link on another thread at the time, but I'm too lazy to find it. It was interesting to me that Saddam was captured soon after, and now the Shia clerics are flexing their muscles.

[atinymonkey]

jadote said in post # :

 

 

Atinymonkey, I don't know exactly what you were getting at in your post. If you believe that article is anything else but a facade for the rest of the world to be fooled by, then you are the one who is misinformed. Hopefully reading these articles will change your mind.

 

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/19/1026898919587.html

 

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/prk-170104-action-eng

 

 

 

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA240032004?open&of=ENG-PRK

 

Some sort of expert on North Korea, are we jadote? I find it depressing that you recognize that there is misinformation and yet blithely assume you are immune to it. Thank God I've finally found someone who is an effective filter against the propaganda, please, please show me the light.

 

I've personally been a member of Amnesty international for over 10 years, and I am well aware of the food shortages that have occurred there. The political forces that prevent North Korea for admitting it needs help do not give you Carte Blanca to tar the entire country as evil, using that logic you could damn half of Africa and half of South America.

 

Could you at least attempt to pull away from your Middle America McCarthyism and view the country with some sort of objectiveness? Or are we always going to have to listen to America shouting 'pinko communist scum' every time someone doesn't follow the capitalist philosophy. Do you care to comment on the hundreds of countries living subsistence lifestyles to support the massive consumption of America? Who do you think really suffers from your 40 trillion dollar deficits? We can go into cash crops, broken fair trade agreements, sweat shops, political slavery et al that put millions of people across the world in abject poverty/starvation to support the American dream? Do you think America has the majority of the worlds wealth just because you deserve it?

 

You know what, sod it. Think whatever you like, pick whatever evidence make you happy. Countrys hate America because they are crazy. All of them. Out of their trees. Fruit loops, down to a man. You should bomb them all, the damn filthily gooks, and take what you like. You deserve it.

[jadote]

By speaking of a possible war with North Korea, I was not condoning it. I was merely pointing out the flaws in the Bush administration's foreign policy. I did not condone the two wars that have been fought under Bush, and i'm not agitating for another. I do recognize that America is responsible for much of the world's problems, directly or indirectly, and that we cause more harm than good on the international scale. I'm not sure why you accused me of 'Middle-America McCarthyism' but I can assure you that I am far from it.

[fafalone]

So you're pro-Al-Qaeda? There's overwhelming evidence they were responsible for 9/11... and if you think we shouldn't have responded to the death of 2500 civilians on our own soil, then you're seriously a candidate for thorazine/ECT treatment.

[jadote]

not supporting war = pro Al-Qaida

 

That is exactly what is wrong with the Bush administration. Unfortunately you cannot fight a war directly against Al-Qaida. Instead, we fought one against Afghanistan. In the process, more civilians were killed. I thought we fought the war to prevent that? However, we have strayed from the topic. Can you seriously condone the war against Iraq? If so, how were they a threat to us?

[fafalone]

There was also overwhelming evidence the Taliban was supporting Al-Qaeda. Not even the democratic candidates, or the UN/EU, are against the action we took in Afghanistan.

[atinymonkey]

Me? I like the Taliban, they are super. I’ve met one or two, and know a couple of people who trained cells in the 1980’s. Grew up in a military family in a city with a large military base you see. We hate Taliban now, obviously.

 

jadote, the post was more of general rant by the end. It was prompted more from a patronising post that said a facade was fooling me. As if you could view my perceptions from a one-sentence post. Sorry about that, bit off topic.

 

The real reason nobody attacks North Korea is nothing to do with oil or humanitarian conflicts, is the f**king huge county that protects it. You know, the largest country in the world, highest population, likes communists, red books and having an army that outnumbers the US 4 to 1?

 

I really need to get more sleep before I reply to stuff.

[jadote]

I did judge you from that one post, which was wrong on my part. Since I don't know you and haven't read many of your other posts/threads, I was a bit thrown off and probably missed the sarcasm/cynicism.

 

 

And don't forget about China's nuclear weapons. Also, China's status as a trading partner probably has some significance here, too.

[LuTze]

At this point I don't think trade agreements have any weight at all with the Bush administration. If they think they can get away with attacking a country for their own gain, they'll do it.

 

The only reason N. Korea hasn't been more of a target for military action is because of the threat of nuclear retaliation and the massive armies (Two of them, no less) protecting it.

[Hitman47]

fafalone said in post # :

So you're pro-Al-Qaeda? There's overwhelming evidence they were responsible for 9/11... and if you think we shouldn't have responded to the death of 2500 civilians on our own soil, then you're seriously a candidate for thorazine/ECT treatment.

 

what if U.S government was involved in 9/11 attacks

 

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/

 

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/arrest_bush_now.htm

 

 

Arrest the president NOW!!

[newbie]

atinymonkey said in post # :

Do you care to comment on the hundreds of countries living subsistence lifestyles to support the massive consumption of America?

Please name them all since you know all this for a fact right?

 

atinymonkey said in post # :

Who do you think really suffers from your 40 trillion dollar deficits?

The citizens of America, who else could? Go ahead, explain for me please.

 

 

atinymonkey said in post # :

We can go into cash crops, broken fair trade agreements, sweat shops, political slavery et al that put millions of people across the world in abject poverty/starvation to support the American dream?

[/b]

I would love to see proof of this!

 

atinymonkey said in post # :

Do you think America has the majority of the world’s wealth just because you deserve it?

[/b]

I don't think its something to be deserved, it’s more of something that was worked hard for--unless you care to explain otherwise?

 

atinymonkey said in post # :

You know what, sod it. Think whatever you like, pick whatever evidence makes you happy. Countrys hate America because they are crazy. All of them. Out of their trees. Fruit loops, down to a man. You should bomb them all, the damn filthily gooks, and take what you like. You deserve it. [/b]

See, this is it. This is the gold of your post. You don't have anything to say, only that you hate America. You never have anything positive to say about anything. This might be tough for you but please, tell us something good about America, be sincere and don't worry it's not hard.

[Sayonara]

jadote said in post # :

Maybe if you'd read the article you would see he was captured 'only recently' inside Iraq. That doesn't provide an Iraq-Al Qaida link pre-9/11.

Yeah, world in "Someone in country he is not from!" shocker. It's not exactly damning evidence is it?

 

The USA has operatives in Afghanistan, therefore they have links to Al-Qaeda too

 

jadote said in post # :

not supporting war = pro Al-Qaida

fafalone never has time to consider more than two opposing positions in any one argument, so you'll just have to pick one.

[Sayonara]

newbie said in post # :

That stuff he said up there like ^

You are going to lose that one, I think.

[fafalone]

Sayonara³ said in post # :

 

 

fafalone never has time to consider more than two opposing positions in any one argument, so you'll just have to pick one.

 

Indeed. Especially in a forum I keep off the active topics list.

 

But I think the issue of how he could possibly be against war in Afghanistan, where the government helped and harbored the largest Al-Qaeda cells and their leadership, especially when we actually came up with the evidence before AND after the war to back up our claims is the most supportive of my conclusion he's even farther left than the green party, to the point of being irrational.

[Sayonara]

jadote, you mean?

[atinymonkey]

newbie said in post # :

See, this is it. This is the gold of your post. You don't have anything to say, only that you hate America. You never have anything positive to say about anything. This might be tough for you but please, tell us something good about America, be sincere and don't worry it's not hard.

 

Gosh. Your right. I hate America sooooooooooooooooo much.

 

I love ice cream.

 

Happy?

[newbie]

atinymonkey said in post # :

 

Gosh. Your right. I hate America sooooooooooooooooo much.

 

I love ice cream.

 

Happy?

 

That's about all I can expect from you atm, so yes that will do for now.

 

 

-edit-

Sayonara³, I did not lose

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[atinymonkey]

Your arguments are childish. It's not a teaching forum, nor is it for trolls.

 

~ Go read Joseph Stiglitz or ask an economics teacher to explain it all to you. If you trade with the US, you suffer the consequences of its deficit. An objective view is a far cry from being anti American. Joseph Stiglitz is far from the only economic minister in the Whitehouse to highlight issues, and he is not classed as anti American.

 

I have no intention of being drawn into another 'discussion' where your views remain fluid to avoid conceding any points. You want to disagree with my points, fine, cite reasoning. Don't post links to irrelevant documents that support the wrong ideals.

 

If you really want to know about the fair trade issues look at amnesty international. The facts are not in general dispute, hence you being the only person to dispute them.

 

As for positive comments, your selective in what you read anyhow so your view is less than helpful. I’m not a person who makes that many supportive comments, nor will I pat you on the head for idiocy. You don’t think highlighting human rights is positive, there is something flawed in your logic. You don’t like my comments, put me on your ignore list. You don’t agree with my assumptions, explain why. Pick on of a plethora of options, and try to remain productive.

 

Perhaps you can explain to the assembled what you consider an adequate reply? Are you looking for an argument, or an agreement? If it’s agreement, with what are you wishing we agree? You don’t like glib replies, don’t ask stupid questions.

[Sayonara]

newbie said in post # :

-edit-

Sayonara³, I did not lose

-edit-

I love the future tense.

[newbie]

atinymonkey said in post # :

Your arguments are childish. It's not a teaching forum, nor is it for trolls.

 

~ Go read Joseph Stiglitz or ask an economics teacher to explain it all to you. If you trade with the US, you suffer the consequences of its deficit. An objective view is a far cry from being anti American. Joseph Stiglitz is far from the only economic minister in the Whitehouse to highlight issues, and he is not classed as anti American.

 

I have no intention of being drawn into another 'discussion' where your views remain fluid to avoid conceding any points. You want to disagree with my points, fine, cite reasoning. Don't post links to irrelevant documents that support the wrong ideals.

 

If you really want to know about the fair trade issues look at amnesty international. The facts are not in general dispute, hence you being the only person to dispute them.

 

As for positive comments, your selective in what you read anyhow so your view is less than helpful. I’m not a person who makes that many supportive comments, nor will I pat you on the head for idiocy. You don’t think highlighting human rights is positive, there is something flawed in your logic. You don’t like my comments, put me on your ignore list. You don’t agree with my assumptions, explain why. Pick on of a plethora of options, and try to remain productive.

 

Perhaps you can explain to the assembled what you consider an adequate reply? Are you looking for an argument, or an agreement? If it’s agreement, with what are you wishing we agree? You don’t like glib replies, don’t ask stupid questions.

 

Don't try and turn this around on me, you’re the troll. All you have done is post questions with no answers and then say "Your arguments are childish", WHAT arguments? I put up no arguments, only answers to your questions and asked if you did not agree with them please clarify YOUR OWN QUESTIONS.

 

"You want to disagree with my points, fine, cite reasoning.

You made no points--only questions, you cite reasoning. Human rights and Fair trade are not the same, no where in your post did you highlight human rights. Joseph Stiglitz is a good guy, but I have yet to see him claim the things you do.

 

I searched amnesty international's website for "fair trade disputes, cash crops, broken fair trade agreements, sweat shops, political slavery et al that put millions of people across the world in abject poverty/starvation to support the American dream" and could not find anything like you stated. The library function seems to be not working so I will check again at a later time.

 

-edit-

Sayonara³ said

I love the future tense.

Woohoo! here we go

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