Patriotism

[Haezed]

Bill Maher's nonsensical and pompous line, "don't question my patriotism you traitor" did make me think.

 

What is patriotism today and does it have a meaningful role in politics or civic life? Is patriotism destructive or merely meaningless? What does it mean to question a person's patriotism?

[YT2095]

Loyalty to ones Country.

you may substitute that for the word.

[Royston]

Loyalty to ones Country.

you may substitute that for the word.

 

I'd extend it to 'blind' loyalty to ones country. It's nonsensical, you're born in a certain location, and so you stand by any decisions and acts that have emerged from that country. In that sense it is destructive, because any patriot will back the decision of a government purely on the basis that it's 'their' government, and they represent 'their' country.

[YT2095]

I disagree, Blind Loyalty implies a high degree of nievety and stupidity, I wouldn`t call our Soldiers that Fought in WW2 for instance Nieve or stupid.

far from it in fact!

[Royston]

I wouldn`t call our Soldiers that Fought in WW2 for instance Nieve or stupid.

far from it in fact!

 

Neither would I, but patriotism isn't just applicable to times of war. It's perfectly understandable to back your country when it's in danger of being taking over, no say in what laws are imposed et.c That's clearly something to fight for, but true patriotism goes further than that. If the goals of Germany and Britain were switched, then would you say the same thing about our soldiers ?

[YT2095]

patriotism isn't just applicable to times of war.

 

How so?

I would have expected that there would be nothing More important, wouldn`t you?

to Loyally defend your country.

[the tree]

There's plenty of ways to be patriotic out of times of war.

[Royston]

How so?

I would have expected that there would be nothing More important, wouldn`t you?

to Loyally defend your country.

 

Well, let's take a hypothetical (that's loosely based on fact.) Country A sees Country B has changed it's political stance, and country A doesn't like this. Country B is clearly no threat to country A, it's tiny in comparison and has a small army. Woe betide anyone who doesn't agree with Country A, so instead of going to war, they fabricate a situation and make plans to assasinate Country B's leader and impose their political ideals on Country B, by forcing Country A's choice of leader on to Country B.

 

Now the two countries are not at war, but country A has forced it's politics on to another country, it basically has country B by the short and curlies. It can then pretty much do what it likes, and there's nothing country B can do about it. Now a patriot, would have no quarms in backing the decision of country A, despite it being highly corrupt, that country B was no threat, and that country A has forced it's ideals and control over a country and has access to any commodities of country B et.c

 

Now it's understandable for someone to emerge as a patriot in country B, but country A ?

 

I promise not to use the word country in the next post

[YT2095]

That isn`t what I would call Patriotism, but rather Greed.

 

Patriotism is far more Nobel than that in my opinion.

[Sisyphus]

I don't think that patriotism means "unconditionally supporting any decisions your country's government makes." I think it means being willing to make sacrifices for your country, and that is NOT the same thing, although it is also a form a "loyalty." A patriot would defend his country in times of war out of love, and he would also care if it was becoming corrupt or immoral in its actions, and fight to right those wrongs. Being a patriot means wanting your country to be as good as possible, however it is you define "good."

[YT2095]

Thank you, I think you said that Far better than I could have done.

[Haezed]

I don't think that patriotism means "unconditionally supporting any decisions your country's government makes." I think it means being willing to make sacrifices for your country, and that is NOT the same thing, although it is also a form a "loyalty." A patriot would defend his country in times of war out of love, and he would also care if it was becoming corrupt or immoral in its actions, and fight to right those wrongs. Being a patriot means wanting your country to be as good as possible, however it is you define "good."

 

I think Patriotism is love of country which in its best form is not unreasoning or blind. I love my wife but I am not blind to her (very slight) imperfections. I would also say something if I thought she was acting immorally which has not yet happened.

 

I wonder if Patriotism is defensible even in its best form. Out of self-preservation we would all fight to protect our own lives, families and homeland. I can't see "loving" a country unless it was lovable. I believe most Western democracies are lovable although I am mystified by those across the Atlantic.

 

I don't feel I would love the United States merely because I was born here any more than I felt obliged to accept the religion I was born into. I genuinely believe I am privileged to live in this time and place and love what the country stands for, misteps from time to time notwithstanding.

 

My point here is that if I thought the United States was the scoundrel of the globe, the greatest risk to world peace, etc. etc., I don't think I would be a patriot nor would I think there is anything wrong in not being a patriot for one who has such beliefs. Why love a country that has not earned your love? Merely because of the geography of your birth? (Not talking to you here Sisyphus; just making a general point).

[Pangloss]

Snail, you're not talking about "patriotism", you're talking about "nationalism". There is a difference.

[swansont]

Bill Maher's nonsensical and pompous line, "don't question my patriotism you traitor" did make me think.

 

What is patriotism today and does it have a meaningful role in politics or civic life? Is patriotism destructive or merely meaningless? What does it mean to question a person's patriotism?

 

More or less nonsensical and pompous than "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel?" I think it's just more ironic and sarcastic.

[Haezed]

More or less nonsensical and pompous than "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel?" I think it's just more ironic and sarcastic.

 

Pompous because it assumes GWB cares a whit about Maher.

 

Nonsensical because a traitor sells out his country to an enemy. Whatever you say about GWB, he did not sell out to an enemy.

 

I don't see it meant as ironic or sarcastic. It's just a stupid Coulteresq attack slogan.

 

The quote you cite is not directed to a specific person but is a rather trite general truism.

[swansont]

I don't thing GWB (or anyone else in the administration) is Maher's target audience, so that's moot. I'm sure the line played well to the people that are his target audience.

 

"Traitor" has several contextual uses, and I don't think you have the right one. You can be a traitor to an ideal or principle.

 

According to this the actual quote and context was "Traitors don't get to question my patriotism," he said during a recent "New Rules" segment on the show, which featured photos of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney behind him. "What could be less patriotic than constantly screwing things up for America?" he added as he launched into a rap on the administration's role in the Valerie Plame scandal.

 

I think the use is pretty much the same as the Johnson quote, except that it's specificly targeted rather than used in general.

[Haezed]

I don't thing GWB (or anyone else in the administration) is Maher's target audience, so that's moot. I'm sure the line played well to the people that are his target audience.

 

"Traitor" has several contextual uses, and I don't think you have the right one. You can be a traitor to an ideal or principle.

 

According to this the actual quote and context was "Traitors don't get to question my patriotism," he said during a recent "New Rules" segment on the show, which featured photos of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney behind him. "What could be less patriotic than constantly screwing things up for America?" he added as he launched into a rap on the administration's role in the Valerie Plame scandal.

 

I think the use is pretty much the same as the Johnson quote, except that it's specificly targeted rather than used in general.

 

I shouldn't have diverted the opening post with my slam on Maher, but, since you want to argue this...

 

Maher is an ugly snide male version of Coulter whose breath stinks with the eating of toasted cheese!

[Nevermore]

Patriotism is loyalty to the principals on which one's country was founded, and the space it occupies. Nothing more.

 

 

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

[the tree]

Patriotism is loyalty to the principals on which one's country was founded, and the space it occupies. Nothing more.

I don't think my country was ever founded, England just sort of happened and Britain was only created as part of the terms of a marriage. The space that Britain occupies is kind of fuzzy as well.

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

This bit I can agree with.

[YT2095]

England just sort of happened

 

ROFLOL that sounds like something I`d say

[Haezed]

Patriotism is loyalty to the principals on which one's country was founded, and the space it occupies. Nothing more.

 

I think it is commonly thought to be more. I'm expected to have more loyalty to America than to other countries with similar democratic principles.

[Royston]

Snail, you're not talking about "patriotism", you're talking about "nationalism". There is a difference.

 

Gotcha, thanks for the correction Pangloss...sorry YT, my mistake. I think I've seen too many TV news articles where so called 'patriots' are marching in protest, spouting the principles and laws of their country without questioning the logic and ethics of their views. So they do come across as a little naive and stupid, doubly so, because those guys are nationalists, and they label themselves as patriots. Anyway, I've learnt something, so it's all good.

[GutZ]

I have nothing against patriotism. In a sense it creates being or thing that doesn't do wrong or right...let me expand that. A countries leader can make all kinds of mistakes and you can disagree with them, lots of bad things could be going on in your country but for "the country" your willing to work it out. The true and sound basic values and beliefs are personalized, or the essences of a country inhabitated by the people.

 

They always show those over the hill Americians on TV Yelling "USA! USA!" and they have no idea why they even do it....that's not patriotism...

[swansont]

I shouldn't have diverted the opening post with my slam on Maher, but, since you want to argue this...

 

Maher is an ugly snide male version of Coulter whose breath stinks with the eating of toasted cheese!

 

Actually no, I don't. I was discussing the quote, not the person who said it. You're the one who keeps bringing that up.

 

Questioning one's patriotism is a dicey thing, especially if you have taken the stance that there's only one way to be patriotic. Because then you aren't allowed to ever be wrong.

[Nevermore]

Okay, then. The principals on which a country operates. The ones politicians have to swear to uphold.