Patriotism

[Haezed]

Actually no, I don't. I was discussing the quote, not the person who said it. You're the one who keeps bringing that up.

 

Strange, I thought I was responding to you on this point until I threw in the silly Shakespeare. I'll stop talking about Maher.

 

Questioning one's patriotism is a dicey thing...

 

Which is why I was interested in discussing what it actually is and whether it is still valued in our country. It appears to be because it is, of course, "dicey" to question the lack of it in another person.

 

On the other hand, the only real context in which I hear patriotism brought up these days seems to be by those who feel theirs has been impuned.

 

...especially if you have taken the stance that there's only one way to be patriotic. Because then you aren't allowed to ever be wrong.

 

Such a stance would be inane, unless you have a liberal talk show on HBO... couldn't help myself.

[Haezed]

Okay, then. The principals on which a country operates. The ones politicians have to swear to uphold.

 

Why should that create a loyalty unique to my own country compared to other countries founded on similar principles?

[Sayonara]

"Patriotism" is one of a handful of words that was made up for transferring the attention of the mob onto the people who disagree with you.

 

Basically.

[Sisyphus]

I think Patriotism is love of country which in its best form is not unreasoning or blind. I love my wife but I am not blind to her (very slight) imperfections. I would also say something if I thought she was acting immorally which has not yet happened.

 

I wonder if Patriotism is defensible even in its best form. Out of self-preservation we would all fight to protect our own lives, families and homeland. I can't see "loving" a country unless it was lovable. I believe most Western democracies are lovable although I am mystified by those across the Atlantic.

 

I don't feel I would love the United States merely because I was born here any more than I felt obliged to accept the religion I was born into. I genuinely believe I am privileged to live in this time and place and love what the country stands for, misteps from time to time notwithstanding.

 

My point here is that if I thought the United States was the scoundrel of the globe, the greatest risk to world peace, etc. etc., I don't think I would be a patriot nor would I think there is anything wrong in not being a patriot for one who has such beliefs. Why love a country that has not earned your love? Merely because of the geography of your birth? (Not talking to you here Sisyphus; just making a general point).

 

See, it all depends on what you mean by "patriot," and what you mean by "country." I think you might be looking at it too narrowly. For example, risking Godwin's attention, let's cut right to the chase and talk about everyone's favorite evil empire, Nazi Germany.

 

Now, what would it mean to live in such a country and be a patriot? "To love Germany" is true but obviously too vague. So what ways could there be?

 

You could be a Nazi because you believe wholeheartedly in the mission and be willing to die for it. But that's not really love of the country, that's love of a particular idealogy, although the idealogy in question muddles the issue a little by necessitating you believe in the natural supremacy of Germany...

 

You could be someone who sees your country is in trouble, and fight for it against those who would threaten it. This is pretty straightforward, and could be mocked as "blindly following orders," but it's not really that (at least not all the time). This could be done for several reasons. It could be a sense of duty, either from some oath taken earlier (perhaps as a military officer) or just a general belief that one is obliged not to abandon one's fellow citizens. Or it could simply be love of the country, no matter how dark the times become, and even if you don't necessarily agree with decisions the leaders make.

 

Or, for the same reasons, you could do the exact opposite. You could fight against, not your country, but the way your country is going. The men who tried to assassinate Hitler did it out of love for Germany, and a desire to save it from the terrible path he had taken it down. Certainly they were considered traitors at the time, and by their actions they were. But I think what makes a patriot or a traitor is the motivations behind those actions.

[JHAQ]

To me patriotism is genomic affinity in action . Blind adherence to a tribal commonality & as such an evolutionary phenomenom for perpetuation of closely related genomes .

[the tree]

Of course! It is just an extension of loyalty to one's family/gang/tribe, that makes more than enough sense.

[ParanoiA]

I thought the clarification of nationalism versus patriotism was the best. You're a patriot until you finally cross the line to nationalist. I suspect some, maybe more, might not realize when they cross the line.

 

Maybe it's like porn. You can't really define it, but you know it when you see it...

[Sisyphus]

To me patriotism is genomic affinity in action . Blind adherence to a tribal commonality & as such an evolutionary phenomenom for perpetuation of closely related genomes .

 

Sure, but why does it have to be "blind?" Morality as a whole is of the same kind.

[swansont]

Which is why I was interested in discussing what it actually is and whether it is still valued in our country. It appears to be because it is, of course, "dicey" to question the lack of it in another person.

 

On the other hand, the only real context in which I hear patriotism brought up these days seems to be by those who feel theirs has been impuned.

 

That's because the ones impugning the others don't necessarily use the term "patriotism" overtly. They use others, like "surrender," or "cut & run." The underlying problem is mistaking dissent for disloyalty.

[ParanoiA]

That's because the ones impugning the others don't necessarily use the term "patriotism" overtly. They use others, like "surrender," or "cut & run." The underlying problem is mistaking dissent for disloyalty.

 

No offense, but the ones "impugning" with words like "surrender" or "cut & run" don't equate dissent and dishonor. Maybe that's why you infer your patriotism being questioned?

[swansont]

No offense, but the ones "impugning" with words like "surrender" or "cut & run" don't equate dissent and dishonor. Maybe that's why you infer your patriotism being questioned?

 

I never said my patriotism was being questioned. I was speculating about others.

 

"Cowards cut and run. Marines never do." (Jean Schmidt of Ohio to John Murtha of Pennsylvania), among other comments made to/about Murtha, who by the way, is a combat veteran. House speaker (at the time) Hastert added that war critics ''prefer that the United States surrender to terrorists who would harm innocent Americans." Comments that label people as "un-American" or accusing them of wanting the terrorists to win.

 

I don't know about you, but I'd interpret that as an attack on one's patriotism. And when it happens to those who disagree with the administration's stance, it is equating dissent with disloyalty, IMO. How is it that you know they don't?

[ParanoiA]

I don't know about you, but I'd interpret that as an attack on one's patriotism. And when it happens to those who disagree with the administration's stance, it is equating dissent with disloyalty, IMO. How is it that you know they don't?

 

Right, you call it dissent, I and others would call it dishonor. The comment on cut and run is accurate, imo, it is dishonorable. Dissent would be not supporting the invasion to begin with, dishonor is when you've already invaded and made a big mess and now you want to leave it for the Iraqis to clean up.

[john5746]

Right, you call it dissent, I and others would call it dishonor. The comment on cut and run is accurate, imo, it is dishonorable. Dissent would be not supporting the invasion to begin with, dishonor is when you've already invaded and made a big mess and now you want to leave it for the Iraqis to clean up.

 

Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney all have said that the IRAQUIS will have to win the war. The military can build things, kill people and train soldiers, but they cannot make a country. You cannot say we will only leave when the job is done, if success is not in our control.

 

To me, dissent of intentions is worse than dissent of actions. For example, I think the invasion of Iraq was rushed and possibly unnecessary. I think Katrina was a screwup by all levels of government. But, I don't assume the intent was malicious in any way. Sure, we are interested in the Middle East because of oil, but we didn't invade to get their oil. We didn't allow New Orleans to flood to kill black people, etc. I think it unpatriotic to assume or believe stuff like this with little or no evidence. I think that our government usually has good intentions, but can be incompetent at times. Of course, it may have bad intentions at times, but as a rule, we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

[ParanoiA]

Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney all have said that the IRAQUIS will have to win the war. The military can build things, kill people and train soldiers, but they cannot make a country. You cannot say we will only leave when the job is done, if success is not in our control.

 

Well, Bush and company can say what they want, but they created the mess and so we're obligated to deal with it. We are responsible for this situation and it is dishonorable to shuck that responsibility. That's my only point. Dissent and Dishonor are debatable, and I think that challenges to one's patriotism could come from that debate.

 

To me, dissent of intentions is worse than dissent of actions. For example, I think the invasion of Iraq was rushed and possibly unnecessary. I think Katrina was a screwup by all levels of government. But, I don't assume the intent was malicious in any way. Sure, we are interested in the Middle East because of oil, but we didn't invade to get their oil. We didn't allow New Orleans to flood to kill black people, etc. I think it unpatriotic to assume or believe stuff like this with little or no evidence. I think that our government usually has good intentions, but can be incompetent at times. Of course, it may have bad intentions at times, but as a rule, we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I totally agree.

[swansont]

Right, you call it dissent, I and others would call it dishonor. The comment on cut and run is accurate, imo, it is dishonorable. Dissent would be not supporting the invasion to begin with, dishonor is when you've already invaded and made a big mess and now you want to leave it for the Iraqis to clean up.

 

Except that's spin to paint the dissenters as unpatriotic. It's cut and run to you, but an exit strategy to others. This situation would probably have played a lot better if the administration had admitted that huge mistakes had been made instead of minimizing them, and simply said that we can't leave because of the power vacuum we had created. So we're stuck with it. But Bush was in office >4 years and couldn't think of any mistakes he had made, at least nothing he could come up with off the top of his head, so he missed the boat on that. Even the "we'll stand down when they stand up" has bitten the dust, because now that strategy no longer has priority.

 

The main problem I see is that there is more than one way to be patriotic. Disloyalty and unpatriotic mean to me that one is referring to someone who doesn't love their country. And I say "How dare you make that judgement!" to that.

[ParanoiA]

Except that's spin to paint the dissenters as unpatriotic. It's cut and run to you, but an exit strategy to others.

 

As long as we're taking responsibility, fine. Exiting, as part of a larger plan to correct this mess would obviously not be the same thing and I'd be all for it - believe me. The problem is, exiting is all we're hearing - the larger plan part is non-existent. That's called cut-and-run. Not spin. Cut-and-run. Exiting and waving goodbye is not a "strategy", it's a trajedy and it's dishonorable.

 

I'm sorry the administration is made up of fools at the moment, or at least foolish decisions, but that is irrelevant to our obligation to the Iraqi people. The rest is politics that operate irreverant to the people it effects.

[Haezed]

See, it all depends on what you mean by "patriot," and what you mean by "country." I think you might be looking at it too narrowly. For example, risking Godwin's attention, let's cut right to the chase and talk about everyone's favorite evil empire, Nazi Germany.

 

Now, what would it mean to live in such a country and be a patriot? "To love Germany" is true but obviously too vague. So what ways could there be?

 

You could be a Nazi because you believe wholeheartedly in the mission and be willing to die for it. But that's not really love of the country, that's love of a particular idealogy, although the idealogy in question muddles the issue a little by necessitating you believe in the natural supremacy of Germany...

 

You could be someone who sees your country is in trouble, and fight for it against those who would threaten it. This is pretty straightforward, and could be mocked as "blindly following orders," but it's not really that (at least not all the time). This could be done for several reasons. It could be a sense of duty, either from some oath taken earlier (perhaps as a military officer) or just a general belief that one is obliged not to abandon one's fellow citizens. Or it could simply be love of the country, no matter how dark the times become, and even if you don't necessarily agree with decisions the leaders make.

 

Or, for the same reasons, you could do the exact opposite. You could fight against, not your country, but the way your country is going. The men who tried to assassinate Hitler did it out of love for Germany, and a desire to save it from the terrible path he had taken it down. Certainly they were considered traitors at the time, and by their actions they were. But I think what makes a patriot or a traitor is the motivations behind those actions.

 

 

All of this makes my point; i would not be patriotic to the US if I did not think that there were objective reasons to be proud of the country, its history and culture. If I hated the US, felt it was the greatest threat to world peace, I would not be patriotic so I wouldn't object to people questioning my patriotism.

[foodchain]

All of this makes my point; i would not be patriotic to the US if I did not think that there were objective reasons to be proud of the country, its history and culture. If I hated the US, felt it was the greatest threat to world peace, I would not be patriotic so I wouldn't object to people questioning my patriotism.

 

Patriotism is a relative term. I would like to speak more on this, but simply such would be major in fallacy in regards to my term.

 

Listen, what you might think as lawful will vary person to person in many ways. I think patriotism is getting off of oil dependence, a great deal of self proclaimed patriots have disagreed with me on this already in my lifetime. This is why the term is relative, it has not absolute basis save for what natural selection might say.

[Haezed]

I would like to speak more on this, but simply such would be major in fallacy in regards to my term.

 

Eh?

 

Listen, what you might think as lawful will vary person to person in many ways. I think patriotism is getting off of oil dependence, a great deal of self proclaimed patriots have disagreed with me on this already in my lifetime. This is why the term is relative, it has not absolute basis save for what natural selection might say.

 

Let me try to tighten my point:

 

1. Patriotism commonly refers to an emotional state, not specific policy programs. It is usually referred to as love of country, which includes the principles of that country.

 

2. It is irrational to love the place where you land by accident of your birth. Ditto for the principles of that place because you might be in Germany in 1939. I don't have a love of the religion I was born into why should I of my country?

 

3. Love, like trust, must be earned.

 

4. I love this country because I view it to be an oasis of freedom in time and space. You go backwards or forwards in time and you might have a very less free life. I believe America has done great things for the world, is stumbling a bit right now, but generally has good intentions. We were blessed by founding fathers who understood that religious belief should not be coerced. I could go on but I love America for specific concrete reasons, even though I understand that it has not always done right, e.g. slavery.

 

5. If I did not believe these things, I would not love America. Why should I? The only reason is the genetic imperative to bond to a tribe (as has been discussed above) and our survival as a species may depend on decoupling our actions from the hard coding in our DNA.

 

6. If someone despises this country, not its current president, but its history, culture and overall impact in this world, it is irrational for them to be patriotic. They may be good people; in fact, if they are correct, they may be the best of people but logically they should not be patriotic people.

[Glider]

Well put.