Guest confusedgeek Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hello, I was wondering, why is aluminum sectible? is it the electron structure? please give simple answes for this is for an *th grade science class. thanks.:feedback: Edit: 8th grade not *th grade, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 "sectible"? I`m unfamiliar with that word, can you explain it a little please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossoi Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 The only reference I can find to sectible is as in dis-sectible. Can you clarify a little more please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest confusedgeek Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 sectible means that you can cut it without it shattering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest confusedgeek Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 sectABLE I'm sorry I was misspelling it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 maleable and ductile are the more common words used to describe metals. it`s just a soft metal, although alloys can be made quite hard and brittle, it will also work harden. it`s more to do with the ctrystaline structure of the material than the electron configs though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :it`s more to do with the ctrystaline structure of the material than the electron configs though. Metals aren't crystals, and it's ALL to do with the electronic configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 the general shapes of a pure material yes, but not for alloys or heat treating, they play the major role in size and shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :the general shapes of a pure material yes, but not for alloys or heat treating, they play the major role in size and shape. I've no idea what you're trying to say. No metal, or metal alloy, is a crystal. Almost all of the properties exist because of the sea of free electrons, and the only reason that alloys have slightly different properties is that the different sized atoms don't fit into the matrix as well, which would be immaterial if they were a crystal anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 MrL_JaKiri said in post # : I've no idea what you're trying to say. No metal, or metal alloy, is a crystal. Almost all of the properties exist because of the sea of free electrons, and the only reason that alloys have slightly different properties is that the different sized atoms don't fit into the matrix as well, which would be immaterial if they were a crystal anyway. with the rare exception at RTP, metals are indeed crystaline, that`s why they`re X-rayed to look for cracks along these structures. and it`s not immaterial it`s the cyrstaline structures and the size that determine it`s working properties as a building material, why do you think if you drop a cast iron pipe it will shatter, but if you heat treat it 1`st and do some it will bouce or maybe dent? it`s the crystal structures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # : with the rare exception at RTP, metals are indeed crystaline Hold on, I'm in error. However, it doesn't mean that you're right earlier, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 http://www.mandarava.com/Retail/Metallic_crystal_specimens.htm or here: http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/ch/resources/xtal/types2.html are just a few you may find interesting, and I think it will satisfy deffinition of a Crystal quite happily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :http://www.mandarava.com/Retail/Metallic_crystal_specimens.htm or here: http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/ch/resources/xtal/types2.html are just a few you may find interesting, and I think it will satisfy deffinition of a Crystal quite happily I don't really see the need of posting these when I looked at my textbooks and found out I was in error about 5 minutes before you posted, and edited to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Oh, and to answer the first question: Saying it's the 'electronic structure' is extremely vague. Everything in chemistry is due to electronic structure. The basic reason for this property is the way that metals bond. The outer electrons detach and become delocalised, not tied to any individual atom. The metal atoms are held together in the lattice structure by this 'sea of electrons'. However, as there aren't bonds between specific atoms, the atoms are relatively free to move, which means that you can cut it, bend it, or whatever, with relatively small effects on the rest of the structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 the valence electron IS responsible for the structure and shape sure, that was never an issue. but the specific charecteristics of a metal as a structural building material tends more to look at the Macro scale in terms of crystal shape and size, other factors (mostly non metals) Silicon and Carbon play a massive role also, heating and cooling time or quenching are significant also. with these alone making a massive difference to the physical proberties. some iron plate can be cut with snips, the same metal chemicaly identical but treated differently could just as easily shatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :the valence electron IS responsible for the structure and shape sure, that was never an issue. but the specific charecteristics of a metal as a structural building material tends more to look at the Macro scale in terms of crystal shape and size, other factors (mostly non metals) Silicon and Carbon play a massive role also, heating and cooling time or quenching are significant also. with these alone making a massive difference to the physical proberties. some iron plate can be cut with snips, the same metal chemicaly identical but treated differently could just as easily shatter. Those factors are nigh on irrelevent for this question though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 and btw, I was looking up those sites in post #12 and had no way to see your post #11 done during that. and as you can, I didn`t edit any posts, you did. Last edited by MrL_JaKiri on 01-30-2004 at 12:19 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :and btw, I was looking up those sites in post #12 and had no way to see your post #11 done during that. and as you can, I didn`t edit any posts, you did. Last edited by MrL_JaKiri on 01-30-2004 at 12:19 PM What the yellow rubbery? I SAID I HAD EDITED MY POST. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME THAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 "I don't really see the need of posting these when I looked at my textbooks and found out I was in error about 5 minutes before you posted, and edited to that effect." the need was that my post was a reply to the one you changed, that`s why, and so if looks out of place it`s because your edit made it out of context and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 YT2095 said in post # :"I don't really see the need of posting these when I looked at my textbooks and found out I was in error about 5 minutes before you posted, and edited to that effect." the need was that my post was a reply to the one you changed, that`s why, and so if looks out of place it`s because your edit made it out of context and nothing else. I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chemistry Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 "why is aluminum sectible? is it the electron structure?" By sectible I think you mean relatively "soft" compared to other metals. The hardness of a metal depends on the delocalization of its electrons. And this has to do with molecular orbitals in relation to valence band and conduction band. If you still are not able to figure it out tell me. Crystal is rather a vague term. I think what you two are disputing about is the difference between a long range covalent network and an ionic compound. Both have an organized structure; e.g. closed packed structure etc...A long range covalent network can apply to pure covalent compounds as well as a molecular network. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Online Chemistry Help http://groups.msn.com/GeneralChemistryHomework Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Actualy, I was just trying to help the guy out a little with his answer to why metals behave in the ways they do from what I remember working part time for 2 years with steering wheel shafts, that had to be individualy tested, UV ink, X-ray of random samples and Arc spectrum analysis of random cross sections per batch. Contention was NOT my interest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfson Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 The reason that metals can be “easily cut without shattering” or hammered into different shapes, is all to do with plastic deformations, these are the areas of the metal(s) where the atomic shift is disrupted, this allows the atomic shift to distribute when the force is applied, the cutting or hammering raises the amount of deformations, and the movement of the atoms are centred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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