Good video

[xabsolutelyx]

 

Has anyone watched this? What do you make of it?

[ecoli]

Just because there's no chemical test doesn't mean there's no rationale behind it. Seems a little strnage to me.

[xabsolutelyx]

Could that rationale be greed?

 

With increasing exposure of the deeply embedded financial ties between mental health practitioners and the pharmaceutical industry, the latest whistleblower is psychiatrist Daniel J. Carlat who told The Boston Globe yesterday, “Our [psychiatric] field as a whole is progressively being purchased lock, stock, and barrel by the drug companies: this includes the diagnoses, the treatment guidelines, and the national meetings.” Dr. Jerome P. Kassirer, a Tufts University professor and author of “On the Take: How Medicine's Complicity with Big Business Can Endanger Your Health,” also weighed in on the issue, stating, “psychiatrists are among the most conflicted of the medical specialties.”

 

These accusations are backed up by a March article in The New York Times, which reviewed financial conflicts of interest among doctors in Minnesota and found that psychiatrists in that state received more drug company money than any other medical specialty—$6.7 million from the pharmaceutical industry between 1997 and 2005. Further, seven out of the last eight Minnesota Psychiatric Society presidents served as consultants to drug manufacturers.

 

A 2006 study published in the journal Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics also determined:

 

· A majority (56%) of the panel members responsible for revisions to psychiatry’s billing bible, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), had one or more financial ties to drug companies.

 

· 100% of the panel members determining “Mood Disorders” and “Schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders” (for which antidepressants and antipsychotics are prescribed) had financial ties to pharmaceutical companies.

 

Commenting on this study, UCLA psychiatry professor, Dr. Irwin Savodnik, stated, “The very vocabulary of psychiatry is now defined at all levels by the pharmaceutical industry.”

 

The DSM was also criticized because, unlike medicine, there are no physical tests that can prove the existence of any mental disorder referenced in the manual. Co-researcher in the study, Lisa Cosgrove of the University of Massachusetts Boston, stated, “No blood tests exist for the disorders in the DSM. It relies on judgments from practitioners who rely on the manual.” Despite the fact that psychiatric diagnoses are entirely subjective, psychiatrists rely on these to justify the prescription of powerful, mind-altering drugs. Worldwide sales of psychotropic drugs, including stimulants, antipsychotics and antidepressants, now exceed $80 billion annually.

 

Despite growing evidence documenting many psychiatric drugs—especially antidepressants—to cause mania, hostility, aggression, suicidal thoughts and behaviors, “homicidal ideation” and acts of violence, the Virginia State Medical Examiner’s Office has refused to release the results of Virginia Tech shooter Seung Hui Cho’s autopsy and toxicology results. Reports indicate that he had a prescription for “depression medication” (usually antidepressants). Since the antidepressant Prozac hit the market in 1988, at least 18 school shooters were reported to have been taking a prescribed psychotropic drug that may have triggered their violent actions.

[ecoli]

Could that rationale be greed?

 

 

I've thought for a long time that the influence of pharmaceuticals have been extraordinarily negative on the field of psychiatry. I have no doubt that the desire to sell new drugs have influenced psychiatrists' classification of various disorders.

 

That doesn't mean that, however, that there's no basis behind many of the disease that psychiatrists have classified. Just that we are heading in the wrong direction in the treatment of these diseases.

[xabsolutelyx]

Yes without drugs (and electroshock therapy etc) psychiatry would be in a much better place.

The drug companies are too powerful and of course have strong incentives to suppress any workable processes in the field of mental health.

But workable processes do exist. I've tried them and continue to. Not because I was mentally sick before, but because they are so good they improve the condition of a well person.

[bluesmudge]

these things are edited to build an argument in favour of the view they want to show.

There are no tests for mental illness. Thats because peoples problems are their own and down to an individual and their life experiences. This video has clearly been made by people who've had no experience with mental illness

[MolotovCocktail]

Its not only the drug companies pressuring psychiatrists to give drugs, but also sometimes parents of kids with some kind of mental condition such as ADD and ADHD. What would happen is that some parents (not all though) don't know how to handle their children if they end up different or if they end up not able to control them and so would go to a psychiatrist to put them on Ritalin or something.

 

Another tactic that drug companies use is to scare parents of children with mental conditions and disorders into thinking that what it is they have is far worse than it actually is, thereby making them think that drugging their children would make them better and of course giving the drug companies more money.

 

Not only that, they will sometimes support various myths about various mental diseases in order to sell their drugs. I know they do this with Autism, if you ever heard of the so-called Mercury Poisoning Myth

(link: http://www.autism-watch.org/ ).

 

Mental illnesses exist, but I think the statistics for the number of people who actually need treatment are constantly skewed by psychiatrists, so yes I do agree with you on that point.

[bluesmudge]

Its not only the drug companies pressuring psychiatrists to give drugs, but also sometimes parents of kids with some kind of mental condition such as ADD and ADHD. What would happen is that some parents (not all though) don't know how to handle their children if they end up different or if they end up not able to control them and so would go to a psychiatrist to put them on Ritalin or something.

 

Another tactic that drug companies use is to scare parents of children with mental conditions and disorders into thinking that what it is they have is far worse than it actually is, thereby making them think that drugging their children would make them better and of course giving the drug companies more money.

 

Not only that, they will sometimes support various myths about various mental diseases in order to sell their drugs. I know they do this with Autism, if you ever heard of the so-called Mercury Poisoning Myth

(link: http://www.autism-watch.org/ ).

 

Mental illnesses exist, but I think the statistics for the number of people who actually need treatment are constantly skewed by psychiatrists, so yes I do agree with you on that point.

 

 

There are most certainly people out there pushing mental illness and supporting drugs. This is what happens in a country like the US that makes people pay for their Health Care. - Where theres money invloved everything tends to get alittle skew.

This said theres no reason to suggest that psychology is rubbish. I refuse to believe that anyone could deny that people suffer from mental problems, and whilst psychiatrist may not have it completely right, they do have names for problems, along with common symptons, which for many people is a major comfort.

 

 

ADHD is a different matter altogther. One should never judge parents who put their kids on drungs before they've tried to care for a child with a behavioural problems.

[MolotovCocktail]

ADHD is a different matter altogther. One should never judge parents who put their kids on drungs before they've tried to care for a child with a behavioural problems.

 

Yeah, but the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes they rely too much on drugs to solve all of their problems. Drugs are supposed to be used as treatments for their symptoms such as Obsessive Compulsiveness should they be severe, not as a way to shut them up as they are doing. It is very detrimental to their physical health if they receive medication that they don't need.

 

Also, there are some parents or people out there who will try to push an ADD or ADHD diagnosis in order to drugs. That means a child may not have anything at all but still be on drugs simply because of convenience.

 

It is similar to the problems we are having with antibiotics; people get a little sick such as catching a cold, they call the doctor to get medicine that would be otherwise used for more serious illnesses, and then after they take it they find that it doesn't work and their bodies are now facing more serious problems, and the resistant strains of bacteria live on to propagate and make the medication useless all together.

[ParanoiA]

Its not only the drug companies pressuring psychiatrists to give drugs, but also sometimes parents of kids with some kind of mental condition such as ADD and ADHD. What would happen is that some parents (not all though) don't know how to handle their children if they end up different or if they end up not able to control them and so would go to a psychiatrist to put them on Ritalin or something.

 

Also consider pressure from schools. It's not always that the parents don't know how to handle them, or aren't willing, but the schools don't know how to handle them.

 

This is the problem we had with our oldest son. We can deal with his ADHD, my mom certainly did with me and they didn't have any drugs to help them - or at least not a fraction of the availability of today. But they took corporal punishment away from school administrators, so there is no controlling my son. If he decides to jump on desks and run his mouth when he shouldn't, they don't have any punishment that will work. Detention? He doesn't care - neither did I. Suspension? Big deal - thanks for the vacation.

 

Punishment at home doesn't work either since he's always living in the moment - that moment being at school with all of his friends to egg him on.

 

The only reason, and I mean the only reason I made it through school, was corporal punishment. That was the only motivator for me to try harder to control myself in school.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread. Just making the point that the school system has plenty to do with forcing parents' hands and medicating their kids. That was the recommendation we got - both from Oklahoma and Missouri school systems - and that's the only recommendation we've received.

[Royston]

That was the recommendation we got - both from Oklahoma and Missouri school systems - and that's the only recommendation we've received.

 

That's poor, sorry for staying off topic, but the gripe I have with ADHD is that it describes normal to disorderly behavior in children. It's perfectly natural for children to find school work boring, to fidget and not pay attention, this can even be through peer pressure where it's not cool to do well in class. Rather than changing teaching methods, or tackling learning difficulties on an individual basis, and/or trying to find the source of the problem, drugs such as Ritalin are administered.

 

Ritalin is administered for hyperactivity, aggressive behavior, lethargy, it goes on and on. I realize ADHD has been discussed to death, I was talking with my parents a few days ago about ADHD, and my Mum (ex teacher) described a range of symptoms that were treated with Ritalin, that were at such far ends of the spectrum (including what appeared to be bi-polar) I was amazed she thought ADHD was a true condition...I'm deeply skeptical.

 

Sorry again for staying off topic.

[solidsquid]

My two cents - not completely for how things are and not completely against how things are.

 

Point 1 - Drug Companies Good and Bad: Without any drug companies at all - many people are screwed. Someone has to manufacture the drugs who have helped millions of people live normal lives - the Parkison's patient on L-Dopa (actually one widely used drug is a mixture of L-Dopa and carbidopa); the schizophrenic who utilizes Risperidone to control the positive symptoms; the unipolar depressed - who have newer atypical antidepressants to thank where older typical or just SSRIs didn't work so well.

 

Are many of these drugs expensive? Yes. Do many of the people that need them, get them? No. Is it entirely a company's fault, no our mental health and medical system is extremely flawed but it's intimately tied to our form of society so it is resistant to change. I could go on and on about what needs to be changed but the fact remains - without someone to manufacture and test these medications, where would we be?

 

This isn't however, to say I condone some of the practices done for a company's benefit - such as giving kickbacks to physicians who utilize their drug over another which I consider unethical - IMHO.

 

Point 2 Psychiatrists - all of 'em are quacks?: I think when some people think of psychiatry they instantly activate these concepts of Freudian psychoanalysis; some of the weirder "therapies" like "rebirthing" or do not have sufficient knowledge of why some procedures are performed - ECT - which they see as barbaric and useless. This isn't to say that all psychiatrists are great physicians - some of them are quacks but so are many neurologists, pathologists, proctologists, pediatricians et al. It's not something exclusive to one sub-division of medicine. Also, don't confuse many of the self-help idiots with mental health professionals - just because they put Dr. before they're name doesn't necessarily mean they're legit. I've picked up self help books written by "Dr." So and So - some with seemingly legit credentials and then I read things like "...we only use 10% of our brains and I'll teach you how to tap into the other 90%..." and become exceedingly disgusted. The market in saturated with this crap - infomercials, TV shows, magazine ads, internet ads and so forth. It's no wonder people are skeptical of the mental health field.

 

I also hear many people refer to things done in the past - experiments that were "inhuman". Well, many of those were very, very long ago and some were simply people's misunderstanding of the experiment like Stanley Milgram's studies on obedience. I read an article in a magazine where they claimed Milgram forced people to be shocked - no on was actually shocked in his studies, the participants thought they were shocking people.

 

Point 3 - Psychiatry/Psychology is all guess work?: I hear this a lot that both the field of psychology and the sub-division of medicine - psychiatry are not scientific at all and psychiatrists/psychologists simply make up whatever they want and create crazy treatments just to mess with people and get their money. Do some people do this? Yes they do. But it may be your own damn fault for going to a "life coach" or "hypnotherapist" instead of a certified psychology or psychiatrist. I've seen TV shows that use "life" coaches with no formal education in psychology and they "help" people by using ridiculous symbolic "therapies" like having them lay in mud and then washing it off while they describe the mud as their "problems".

 

This isn't to say that professionals don't make mistakes, they do - they're human too, they screw up just like everyone else. Which is where the role of the good patient comes in. If you're concerned about a loved one who has been diagnosed with a disorder - learn about it, ask the doctor questions about their conclusions - go to the library and look at the DSM for yourself, visit websites of societies which offer information and support for those disorders and read the scientific literature - do a pubmed search. Learn what you can to help. If you don't think your kid needs medication or even has a disorder - discuss it with your doctor, it's part of they're job to keep you informed. You can always get a second opinion as well.

 

Those are just a few quick points I thought I'd add to the discussion. I'm sure many will not agree with much of what I've said. Many have had bad experiences with mental health professionals or those claiming to be professionals. It is most likely something such as that which fueled L. Ron Hubbard's hatred for psychiatry.

 

Also keep in mind that the prinicpal, teacher or guidance counselor at your child's school is not a mental health professional.

[GutZ]

What about anxiety prone people, If you watch their brains I am sure you see other with over excited sectors or whatever right?

 

There must be objective reasons to why people behave in this manner. I mean come on...

[solidsquid]

Some studies have said they've found morphological differences between those with panic disorder and control groups using brain imaging such as CT scans. As well as some findings on differences in neurochemistry.

[MolotovCocktail]

When you are depressed your brain chemistry changes, which is another example and a well known example of a physical cause. Drugs that treat depression usually aim to stimulate some neurotransmitters such as Dopamine. You can check for yourself here:

 

link: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm#intro

 

I mentioned this in another thread a long time ago (http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25458), but I once attended a lecture by a guy with bi-polar who talked about depression and mania. He said that when one is depressed the brain reacts in a similar way when it is reacting to physical pain or physical trauma, so yes there is a direct correlation between mental and physical states.

 

 

In the above posts however the controversy is revolving around the fact that people are being pressured into buying drugs they don't need because of the fact that it is easy to use mental disorders as an excuse or as a convenience to shy away from responsibility, to place blame, or mask the fact that it may be the fault of the system and not the patient in question. Also, some people just don't realize that people are just, well, different and that the "cookie cutter" just isn't an effective or efficient way to tackle a problem or address issues.