Sharpton, the Bigot

[ParanoiA]

You've apparently hinged part of this on Sharpton saying "really." Are you really going to set the bar that high, especially for an unscripted, unprepared comment made in a debate about believing in God?

 

Yes. Here's why. Because it's BS. I would never set the bar that high if it was clear he didn't mean it. But you're really going out of your way to interpret it the way you have. He's spinning this on extremely flimsy grounds that NO ONE would buy this lame excuse for a second if we were talking about Bush, Imus, Rush, Rove, Cheney...

 

I'm just expecting the guy to apologize and practice what he preaches (literally..).

 

A racist bigot homophobe gets a never ending benefit of the doubt?? How did that happen?

[john5746]

Well, truth is there is a double standard. Many blacks have an inferiority complex. If a black guy called a white team "redneck trash", I doubt he would lose his job or be called racist. To me, "redneck" is equivalent to "nappy". But there are no words that are off limits to blacks. There are no words they can utter that will reduce a white person to nothing. Why is that? Because we will not allow it to happen.

 

To me, Imus was just calling them low class. He was comparing two primarily black teams. One looked attractive, the other trashy, in his opinion. So, there is a double standard, but that isn't the only one. All people have to deal with double standards and we are pretty well aware of this one. But it really hurts blacks more than anyone else and people like Sharpton keep this inferiority complex going. I really think someone like MLK would try to rise above stuff like this and tell people not to empower such people.

 

So you can cry about the media, etc. But the truth is that whites, orientals, mormons, etc just aren't phased as much by certain words. Probably because they don't feel as oppressed as a group.

[Pangloss]

I think you're probably right about all of that.

 

Not to change the subject, but I've wondered many times over the years how the black leadership might have turned out differently were it not for the tragedy in Memphis. I grew up in Atlanta between 1965 and 1985, a time and place where people who "were part of the civil rights movement" were more common than streets named "Peachtree" on a north Georgia road map. I can tell you from that experience that there is something of a bipolar split in the variety of former civil rights leaders who came out of that era -- those who became demagogues and those who did not. You almost never hear about the latter variety, but it's always seemed to me that MLK was of the non-demagogic type (though I admit that's an irony).

 

The thing I think a lot of people fail to understand about the American civil rights movement is that it *needed* demagoguery. Would have failed without it! Most black people at that time were not willing to stand up a fight for "civil rights". THAT aspect of the movement was mainly in the province of well-to-do blacks, college students, and activists. Working blacks had every-day problems to deal with like getting that next paycheck and paying for the food needed to feed the kids, which almost certainly depended on not antagonizing some rich white man. The only way to bring THOSE people on board was to sell them on the idea that they were better off economically by enrolling in the movement.

 

But that method of enrollment of the common man carried a price. The demagogic side of the black leadership has never understood that price, and doesn't care a whit about it. The non-demagogic side understands it very well, but it is tragically under-represented. Examples might be found in John Lewis, MLK's right-hand-man Ralph Abernathy (who actually supported Ronald Reagan for President), or Hosea Williams (who always seemed more interested in feeding the poor with FOOD rather than flowery rhetoric). Mind you, all of them were outspoken champions of civil rights! But there is a distinct difference between their actions and the ambulance-chasing tactics of the likes of Sharpton and Jackson.

 

I've no real evidence of this, but I've always suspected that MLK today would be outraged and appalled at black culture, much in the same way as Bill Cosby. Oh I think he would have been opposed to the war in Iraq, but I think he would have much more in common with the moderate black leadership in this country than with the demagogues like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

[mike90]

Well, truth is there is a double standard. Many blacks have an inferiority complex. If a black guy called a white team "redneck trash", I doubt he would lose his job or be called racist. To me, "redneck" is equivalent to "nappy". But there are no words that are off limits to blacks. There are no words they can utter that will reduce a white person to nothing. Why is that? Because we will not allow it to happen.

 

To me, Imus was just calling them low class. He was comparing two primarily black teams. One looked attractive, the other trashy, in his opinion. So, there is a double standard, but that isn't the only one. All people have to deal with double standards and we are pretty well aware of this one. But it really hurts blacks more than anyone else and people like Sharpton keep this inferiority complex going. I really think someone like MLK would try to rise above stuff like this and tell people not to empower such people.

 

So you can cry about the media, etc. But the truth is that whites, orientals, mormons, etc just aren't phased as much by certain words. Probably because they don't feel as oppressed as a group.

 

Now I'm not defending people like Sharpton for a moment, but this comment bugs me a bit. I've heard similar comments from white people before, and it's not a matter of us " letting ourselves be offended" as it were. It's the fact that as long as blacks have been in this country we've been exploited and every attempt has been made to marginalize us in society.

 

The same thing could be said for many other minorities, but then again many other minorities didn't have to first deal with their people being dragged over here as slave labor, and then having to fight for hundreds of years to get to equal status.

 

The reason there are no words to have an equal effect on whites is simple: white people are and always have been the main power base of America. It's a lot easier to take insults in stride when your race controls nearly everything in the country including the vast majority of the wealth and political power.

 

Racial slurs will trigger an automatic, instinctive, and imo not undeserved rage in the average black person not found in most other races. Despite the happy rainbow picture painted we are still a long way off from enjoying equal status to whites.Just because they stopped calling us n*****s and let us use the same restrooms doesn't mean we are treated as equals or given an equal oppurtunity to succeed. Thats just more American urban legend like this "American Dream" thats supposed to exist here too.

 

In summary yes we are more hostile and and sensitive but it's NOT because of some "inferiority complex". It's because as a people were just a bit tired of getting screwed over. It always boggles my mind that 40 years ago we were still actively being held down in society and somehow the majority of white people seem to think everything must be cool now and that the entire situation has reversed itself in a mere 40 years.

 

White people forced blacks and many other minorities into lives of poverty and strife for a long time out of greed, and ity going to take a lot longer then 40 years for us to be on equal standing. There are many families living in poverty today because bigotry put them there.

[Pangloss]

mike90, are you suggesting that society should be governed by emotions, erroneous perceptions, and instinctive reactions? Isn't that kinda crazy?

[Haezed]

It always boggles my mind that 40 years ago we were still actively being held down in society and somehow the majority of white people seem to think everything must be cool now and that the entire situation has reversed itself in a mere 40 years.

 

I can understand a racial minority that was literally chattel not too long ago would at least have skeptism that racism just vanished.

 

OTOH, when you talk about 40 years, you are talking about before the birth of many of the people on this board. The younger generations were raised during a time when it was extremely uncool to be bigoted and I think there has been an actual paradigm shift.

 

Also, let me ask you, how does it help African Americans to dwell on the history of their birth? If African American youth become convinced by their older generation that they can't get a fair shake in America today, how does that help them? Would it be better to have a little faith that this country provides opportunity for all with talent who work hard and take risks?

 

There is a risk that any formerly oppressed segment of society will indulge in a self-defeating mind set where it is keeping itself down and doesn't recognize the new opportunities that exist in a culture..

 

 

White people forced blacks and many other minorities into lives of poverty and strife for a long time out of greed, and ity going to take a lot longer then 40 years for us to be on equal standing. There are many families living in poverty today because bigotry put them there.

 

You say "white people" did this. Now, if I were to say "black people" did x,y or z negative action, wouldn't I be in dangerous territory?

 

MLK would have us judge each other not by the color of our skin but by the content of our character. My families' ancestors were rich plantation owners who lost their wealth, primarily their slaves, in the war between the states. My family still has one of our relatives' gun from that war. I see this as distant history and in no way feel guilty. It wasn't me.

 

Slavery has an ancient lineage which wasn't always or even usually racial. I agree racial enslavement is especially repulsive but at some point it has to stop being an excuse for irrational behavior.

[swansont]

Nonsense. It's not okay to make biggoted comments about people who are in public life. And I don't think it would have been accepted if the target of Imus' comment had been Oprah Winfrey instead of the Rutgers women's basketball team.

 

Somehow I overlooked this before.

 

This is a non-sequitur. It was not my contention that making bigoted statements was acceptable. The topic under discussion was why was there (supposedly) less of a media response to Sharpton's comments. If the target of such a statement has direct access to the media, they can respond more easily and directly, and others might not feel the need to jump in front of a microphone to defend Romney as they did to defend the Rutgers basketball team.

[Pangloss]

Well okay, but doesn't that create a de facto situation where people in "public life" are considered valid targets for bigotry?

 

BTW, the Rutgers university women's basketball team and its members are public figures. Perhaps not as out-there as some public figures, but I don't think that point would even come up if it were the men's basketball team.

[ParanoiA]

Now I'm not defending people like Sharpton for a moment, but this comment bugs me a bit. I've heard similar comments from white people before, and it's not a matter of us " letting ourselves be offended" as it were. It's the fact that as long as blacks have been in this country we've been exploited and every attempt has been made to marginalize us in society.

 

Yes..by both White and black people. And you are letting yourself be offended. Many black men walk around with a chip on their shoulder, looking for racism and lack of fairness. They will find it. I can find hints of "long hair-ism" if I look for it. That doesn't mean it's a significant issue by any stretch. You can find anything if you look hard enough, but is it rational? I don't think so.

 

The same thing could be said for many other minorities, but then again many other minorities didn't have to first deal with their people being dragged over here as slave labor, and then having to fight for hundreds of years to get to equal status.

 

And neither did you. Neither did I. If you want open the history books and start pointing fingers, then why stop at a few hundred years? Why is that a magic number? How about 1000 years? How about 5000 years? Every race on this planet has been enslaved and every race on this planet has driven slaves. Some more than others - some a whole hell of a lot more than others, but we can all point to history and trace current status to bad things that happened to us by other people. We don't do that however, because it's stupid. It's unproductive. It gives one side an excuse to fail and the other side a reason to hate.

 

You like digging around your history and continuing the fight today? It's working out real well for the Israelis and palestinians isn't it?

 

The reason there are no words to have an equal effect on whites is simple: white people are and always have been the main power base of America. It's a lot easier to take insults in stride when your race controls nearly everything in the country including the vast majority of the wealth and political power.

 

That's complete bullshit. Your bitterness is showing. Tell this to the poor disenfranchised white folk all over the country. You think they feel or realize this power or wealth you're talking about? Please. They don't recognize any power or wealth or any comradery at all with those who do. It's not white people with power versus black people with none - it's people with power versus people with none.

 

There is a glimpse of truth, in that those who are empowered and wealthy aren't bothered by those of us who are not. And those of us who are not typically blame our problems on the wealthy. The rich hold us down..blah blah blah. This is age old human nature crap where we externalize our problems so we don't have to face the fact that we suck at making a living. All you've done is throw in a racial spin on an old excuse.

 

No, "white" people are just as poor, divided and non-empowered as any other race, and yet we don't get bent out of shape over name calling. The reason black people do is because they can, and they feel like everyone is against them. And that's because they're taught that from their environment.

 

Thats just more American urban legend like this "American Dream" thats supposed to exist here too.

 

Oh my god, I've heard this a million freaking times. This is just a "life isn't fair" plea. You know what Mike, I didn't get my american dream either. Who can I blame it on? I should be able to sit on my ass at home watching TV and my american dream come knocking at the door to get me. What happened to it? All lies, right?

 

The american dream is alive and doing great. I'm sorry, it's not a "gaurantee", but there's 300 million other people in this country who are also pursuing the american dream. Just because you didn't succeed, doesn't mean there's no succeeding. Your attitude is more of a sore loser campaign.

 

In summary yes we are more hostile and and sensitive but it's NOT because of some "inferiority complex". It's because as a people were just a bit tired of getting screwed over.

 

I don't agree. I think it's because as a people it serves your interests to remain hostile. To keep up the pressure and get maximum mileage out of people who didn't do anything to you. It's a tactical advantage, typical of humans. I would use it if I had it, but unfortunately I was born white.

 

So, I'm automatically to blame for all of your problems and should pay dearly for it, AND everything I have "came easy" due to the secret "white understanding". And since black people don't have any special institutions just for them, like whites obviously do, it's doubly unfair...right?

[mike90]

Paranoia:

 

Yay a swarm of strawman arguments, but then again I should have expected

it. First off I never ever said it's only unfair on black people or that every white person has it easy. Don't try to put those words in my mouth for me. What I AM saying is if you break it down along racial lines it's clearly not equal. You have one race holding the majority of power, influence, and wealth in a a verry racially diverse country.

 

That's not being bitter or angry or racist, that's noticing the obvious

 

Your " long hair" argument is asinine. I've heard this argument many times before, please dear god dont get offended, but this is an argument I only ever hear from white people. Becuase the average white person has no idea what dealing with racism is like, they tend to assume everyone else is being over dramatic about it. ( which to be fair does happen in the media way too much) The main problem with your argument is if someone discriminates against you overr you hair/clothing style/ etc , at least you could change whatever that was if you didn't like the treatment. I can't change my skin color.

 

And not to get all my people, as I generally hate it when black people do this, but just because the racism isn't right in front of your face doesn't mean its not going on. I've had a nightstick pulled on me by a security guard for no reason, had a gun pulled on me by a cop for no reason, had friends of mine get beat up by cops and pulled over by cops for no reason.

 

As for your last couple of smart ass lines, you know what? You have no right to judge me. You DON'T KNOW me. I've worked hard my entire life to try to make the best life for myself that I can. I never asked anyone for any handout or tried to pin my problems on anyone else.

 

You don't want to see whats plain in front of your face? Let me break it down for you. I brought up slavery because its all a chain, exploitation of minorities never went anywhere it's just convenient for white people to let themselves believe that. Yes we were dragged over here to be slaves, then given freedom that wasn't even freedom. And black people had to fight and struggle

to finally win "equal rights" with the civil rights act in '68. But heres the thing people seem to forget so quickly:

 

 

It wasn't given to us we had to fight for it. Think about that fact. Only 40 years ago such a LARGE PERCENTAGE of the populace was so clearly racist we had to pass a law forcing people to treat blacks equally, and that law was passed amongst rioting and beatings and a lot of bloodshed in general. That is how dead opposed so many people were.

 

And were supposed to beileve that since they changed the laws all these people just magically changed their minds? Yeah.... No what people do now is the PC route, they keep their racism subtle. Do you know I literally cannot walk into one upscale store in my area without being followed by sales clerks or security? And I get a little extra special attention from local cops, especially if I happen to be hanging out with black friends.

 

Also I think its worth mentioning that up until maybe a generation ago most minorities were shunted off into most of the menial low paying work in the country.( A lot are still there, and you might be surprised how many employers violate about every labor law when it comes to immigrants, because they know they will accept just about any treatment to keep a job) Which helped lead to generations growing up in poverty in the projects which is still having repercussions today.

 

Sure all of these things can happen to anyone of any race, but being a minority or immigrant clearly does not help you. I'm not sure how thats even debatable by a reasonably observant person.

 

Haezed: No its really not helping the black community dweling on all of this, I wish they would really just let it go a little. But theres a line between blaming everyone else for everything that goes wrong in your life and acknowledging that its not an equal playing field just because we would like it to be.

 

The language " white people" isn't intended to offend, but in this case yes it is an issue of white people being racist towards other races trying to assimilate into America.That has been the case with every race that has immigrated over here, having to live through the hazing period to be accepted as "real americans" . Its well documented in history that this has happened, so I don't feel its offensive, I really wouldn't know how else to put it.

 

Slavery is not a justification for any irrational behavior. Neither is racism. But what is truly frustrating is this mindset of... Im sorry to say it.. but this mindset of the average white person that slavery and racism occurred duyring this " dark age" of American culture, and everything is just great and equal now. Which the average minority could tell you isn't true at all. Im sorry if people don't like to hear it. but there is sitll plenty of very blatant racism going on every day

[ParanoiA]

What I AM saying is if you break it down along racial lines it's clearly not equal. You have one race holding the majority of power, influence, and wealth in a a verry racially diverse country.

 

I'd like to see the numbers to back that up. If there are more white people than black people, then it stands to reason you would have that same ratio in power and wealth. I'm not stupid, I know it's going to be a higher ratio than 7:1, which is the last white to black ratio I've seen and that was years and years ago.

 

And what you don't understand is that white people don't have that sense of unity that you do. That's our weakness. You have had to struggle, together, to fight for you rights so your sense of comradery dwarfs any sense of brotherhood that may exist with white people. Be proud of that, but also understand that is why we don't "get it" when you claim white people hold all the power.

 

To us, it's like saying all people who chew bubble gum have the power in the country...we're thinking...so what? We don't feel that sense of brotherhood for that to have any meaning.

 

The top 1% of wage earners hold the power and wealth for the most part, in my opinion. And that group is getting more diverse everyday.

 

Becuase the average white person has no idea what dealing with racism is like, they tend to assume everyone else is being over dramatic about it.

 

I doubt you know what it's like for your sister to get hit by a train, but that doesn't mean you can't empathize with me. It doesn't mean you can't tell me to knock it off and get it together if I spend years and years of my life depressed over it.

 

It's not that I think you're being overly dramatic, it's that you're allowing it to continue to hold you down. Why? Don't give them the power. Sure, easy for me to say...and you should appreciate that because those who are NOT in your shoes are more objective. Your parents and their parents had to fight for the rights they got. Now, what are you going to do?

 

As for your last couple of smart ass lines, you know what? You have no right to judge me. You DON'T KNOW me. I've worked hard my entire life to try to make the best life for myself that I can. I never asked anyone for any handout or tried to pin my problems on anyone else.

 

I didn't judge you. But I've heard this whiny "american dream" complaint my whole life, and forgive me if this offends you but, it always seems to come from black people. As if all white people got their dream, only black people don't get theirs. That's asinine. We've all got no one to blame but ourselves. You can blame others in terms of them out performing you in pursuit of their american dream, but then that's just being a sore sport.

 

You don't want to see whats plain in front of your face? Let me break it down for you. I brought up slavery because its all a chain' date=' exploitation of minorities never went anywhere it's just convenient for white people to let themselves believe that. Yes we were dragged over here to be slaves, then given freedom that wasn't even freedom. And black people had to fight and struggle

to finally win "equal rights" with the civil rights act in '68. But heres the thing people seem to forget so quickly:

 

 

It wasn't given to us we had to fight for it. Think about that fact. Only 40 years ago such a LARGE PERCENTAGE of the populace was so clearly racist we had to pass a law forcing people to treat blacks equally, and that law was passed amongst rioting and beatings and a lot of bloodshed in general. That is how dead opposed so many people were. [/quote']

 

You are absolutely right Mike. And inside of two generations it's gone from being perfectly acceptable to be publicly, vocally racist to being totally shunned and socially punished for even mentioning discomfort with another race. This is a good thing. Society got on board, Mike. They listened to your fathers and grandfathers when they fought for equal rights.

 

The thing I've never heard from a black person my entire life: Recognition or credit for the white people that fought for civil rights also. You complain about riots, but what about the white folks that passed the legislation? What about the white folks that fought side by side with black folks during those riots? White people did have to stand up and take ridicule from their white families and friends. They had to do the unpopular thing - and they had no need to do it at all - they just knew it was the right thing to do.

 

Sure it doesn't compare to the suffering of the generations of black families, but I've never heard any recognition. You don't seem to care at all. Just looking at the bad, with no appreciation of human nature and the phenomenal change of heart in such a short time of a race of people.

 

Keep in mind, I'm not misanthropic. To me, when a human does a decent little thing, they had to overcome hundreds of natural despicable built-in impulses to do that decent thing. I don't look at the human race and shake my head, I look in awe. We have every reason to be the proudest, nastiest predator on the earth, raping and pillaging each other, by race, sex, geographical location..etc - yet we still manage to be decent to each other and see those impulses as wrong and force ourselves to be better.

 

So I have a hard time accepting negativity on an issue that has seen such a remarkable turn around, in terms of human nature. We don't get any credit for that. Just repeatedley thrown in our face - that's not good enough...that's not good enough...that's not good enough...

 

You realize how discouraging that is?

 

Sure all of these things can happen to anyone of any race, but being a minority or immigrant clearly does not help you. I'm not sure how thats even debatable by a reasonably observant person.

 

No one is debating that, but rather debating how significant that is still. There are so many specialized institutions for minorites now, that don't exist for white folks. We don't bitch, we understand. If you're white, you have no excuses. No one is crying for you and no one is helping you either. 'You're white - you don't need any help'. We all suffer from the past. You might look at our struggle and laugh, but as you know, it's very real when you experience it.

 

Slavery is not a justification for any irrational behavior. Neither is racism. But what is truly frustrating is this mindset of... Im sorry to say it.. but this mindset of the average white person that slavery and racism occurred duyring this " dark age" of American culture, and everything is just great and equal now.

 

We don't think it's great and equal - we think it's about as great and equal as can reasonably be expected - and in my opinion, remarkably so. You can't force people's hearts and minds to change. And considering in-group / out-group psychology, we're battling nature here. And we're winning!

 

The older generations are littered with the racists, or at least the prejudice so strongly felt 40 years ago. They're almost out of the picture in terms of power and wealth. Things are looking really good, but we have to go through the motions and allow time to do its thing. Those who don't recognize that, are going to lead bitter, frustrated lives.

[Pangloss]

Keep it civil, folks. Calling someone's argument "assinine" is pure ad-hominem, and future such comments may be removed without further notice.

[Wormwood]

Yay a swarm of strawman arguments' date=' but then again I should have expected

it. First off I never ever said it's only unfair on black people or that every white person has it easy. Don't try to put those words in my mouth for me. What I AM saying is if you break it down along racial lines it's clearly not equal. You have one race holding the majority of power, influence, and wealth in a a verry racially diverse country.[/quote']

 

What are you imagining? A disproportionate representative system where a minority holds the same sway and power as the majority? Wouldn't that be very undemocratic?

 

 

Your " long hair" argument is asinine. I've heard this argument many times before, please dear god dont get offended, but this is an argument I only ever hear from white people. Becuase the average white person has no idea what dealing with racism is like, they tend to assume everyone else is being over dramatic about it. ( which to be fair does happen in the media way too much) The main problem with your argument is if someone discriminates against you overr you hair/clothing style/ etc , at least you could change whatever that was if you didn't like the treatment. I can't change my skin color.

 

People have discriminated against me for being white. I grew up in Mississippi in a town that was 70% black, so I was a minority most of my life and people are very open about their racism. As a teenager I was called "white boy" (and worse) more than my actual name. I got the strange looks, the distrust, the weird assumptions about what "my people" are like, all of that. It's not that everyone is oblivious to your plight, it's that people don't understand why that is a reason to fail to so many, or why it is so much more dramatic when it happens to black people. It's irritating to be called names or whatever, but I hardly see that as an excuse to freak out or start trying to fight people or having any reaction other than just mild annoyance.

 

And not to get all my people, as I generally hate it when black people do this, but just because the racism isn't right in front of your face doesn't mean its not going on. I've had a nightstick pulled on me by a security guard for no reason, had a gun pulled on me by a cop for no reason, had friends of mine get beat up by cops and pulled over by cops for no reason.

 

I've been pulled over for no reason. I've been pulled over for driving in a "black neighborhood" to visit one of my high school friends. This is nothing race specific to black people. Besides, black people can become cops so I hardly see how police behavior can be seen as a white thing or an against black people issue. This is more of a profiling issue.

 

As for your last couple of smart ass lines, you know what? You have no right to judge me. You DON'T KNOW me. I've worked hard my entire life to try to make the best life for myself that I can. I never asked anyone for any handout or tried to pin my problems on anyone else.

 

You don't want to see whats plain in front of your face? Let me break it down for you. I brought up slavery because its all a chain, exploitation of minorities never went anywhere it's just convenient for white people to let themselves believe that. Yes we were dragged over here to be slaves, then given freedom that wasn't even freedom. And black people had to fight and struggle

to finally win "equal rights" with the civil rights act in '68. But heres the thing people seem to forget so quickly:

 

You say in one paragraph that you never blame anyone for your problems, then in the next paragraph you go on about how slavery started a chain that is responsible for black people's problems. Which is it? BTW, most of the slaves used in the US were already slaves when the Europeans acquired them, so how would their life have been any better or easier if they had been slaves somewhere else? My Irish ancestors were discriminated against and hated, but they came anyway and tried to assimilate. I am glad they did. They suffered so that I could be in what is now one of the greatest countries in the world. Am I mad about what was done to my ancestors? No, because I wasn't there and couldn’t care less. I could pretend to be all sentimental for the sake of other people, but in reality the only things I care about with passion are things that affect me either directly or indirectly. The net result of my ancestors mistreatment is that I live in the US instead of Ireland, so I can't say that I am truly that upset. I can sympathize because they were mistreated, but I could not act like it is something that still detrimentally shapes me to this day (and if I did, the net gain outweighs the detriment so I can't complain about the past, only make a better future).

 

 

It wasn't given to us we had to fight for it. Think about that fact. Only 40 years ago such a LARGE PERCENTAGE of the populace was so clearly racist we had to pass a law forcing people to treat blacks equally, and that law was passed amongst rioting and beatings and a lot of bloodshed in general. That is how dead opposed so many people were.

 

Think about this: Most of those people that were rioting in the streets against civil rights, are like 80 now so no one even cares about their opinion anymore.

 

And were supposed to beileve that since they changed the laws all these people just magically changed their minds? Yeah.... No what people do now is the PC route, they keep their racism subtle. Do you know I literally cannot walk into one upscale store in my area without being followed by sales clerks or security? And I get a little extra special attention from local cops, especially if I happen to be hanging out with black friends.

 

I will agree that some people do keep their racism subtle, but I also think that anyone under 45-50 isn't even old enough to remember pre civil rights, and most of those people aren't nearly as racist as you depict. If the cops give you and your friends extra attention it is probably because:

Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males.

 

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

 

That is 1/3!!! If it is you and two friends, statistically one of you will break the law at some point.I don't mean this to put you down or anything, just that it is what it is. Sort of like when you say:

Its well documented in history that this has happened, so I don't feel its offensive, I really wouldn't know how else to put it.

I would rather the police watch ANYONE that is statistically likely to commit crime, rather than be PC and watch people that are statistically unlikely to commit crime. Am I wrong for this?

 

 

Also I think its worth mentioning that up until maybe a generation ago most minorities were shunted off into most of the menial low paying work in the country.( A lot are still there, and you might be surprised how many employers violate about every labor law when it comes to immigrants, because they know they will accept just about any treatment to keep a job) Which helped lead to generations growing up in poverty in the projects which is still having repercussions today.

 

The fact that employers (which does not equate to white BTW) take advantage of immigrants is the sole reason that the immigrants are allowed to bypass the immigration laws, so no that is not surprising. If Canadians were pooring over the border to work for $4-5 an hour, businesses would take advantage of them as well. No race in this equation.

 

Sure all of these things can happen to anyone of any race, but being a minority or immigrant clearly does not help you. I'm not sure how thats even debatable by a reasonably observant person

.

 

Should it help you? Is there any culture in the world where being in the minority is advantageous?

 

 

The language " white people" isn't intended to offend, but in this case yes it is an issue of white people being racist towards other races trying to assimilate into America.That has been the case with every race that has immigrated over here, having to live through the hazing period to be accepted as "real americans" . Its well documented in history that this has happened, so I don't feel its offensive, I really wouldn't know how else to put it.

 

Slavery is not a justification for any irrational behavior. Neither is racism. But what is truly frustrating is this mindset of... Im sorry to say it.. but this mindset of the average white person that slavery and racism occurred duyring this " dark age" of American culture, and everything is just great and equal now. Which the average minority could tell you isn't true at all. Im sorry if people don't like to hear it. but there is sitll plenty of very blatant racism going on every day

Like affirmative action racism, or bad racism?

[mike90]

Wormwood...

 

1) Im not saying I have the solution to the problem, merely pointing out the inequity.

 

2) I know white people are discriminated against too, all races can be depending on the area your living in. And I agree racism is no reason to just give up on your life or to act irrationally, that just feeds the problem so it can go on for eternity. Believe me I wish the black community would stop going out of its way to embarass itself.

 

3) Profiling IS racism if your only pulling over people based on their race. And yes there are plenty of black cops out there, that doesn't mean a lot of cops aren't racist. |Honestly I don't see where one is rerlated top the other.

 

4) I don't personally blame slavery for anything, and I hate when black people try to act as if they somehow are suffering because of it. The only reason I brought slavery up is to make the point that its a link in a chain . From slavery to sharecropping to menial labor to perennial second class citizens. Sure after the act in 1968 that began to change more, but you have to think of the massive number of people growing up until and during that time that ended up being raised in projects and ghettos. That's not an environment that a large percentage of people go on from to have fantastic successful lives.

 

5) Sure a lot of those people are old. But do you really think none of them raised children to beileve the same things they do? If idiotic beliefs died with the parents we wouldn't have seen near continuous war over stuff like religion the last couple millenia.

 

6) Sure there are lots of black folks in prisons. That doesn't make it ok to assume every black person is a crime waiting to happen. And it shouldn't make it ok to pull over or harass people just based on their skin color if their not doing anything remotely suspicious.

 

7) Employers hire immigrants because they know they will work for next to no money and under horrible conditions usually. If its well known that certain races can be easily exploited and taken advantage of how is that not racism? their race is exactly why their being treated the way they are. And I never said employers do equate to white

 

8) Never said it should help you, just shouldn't make your life an actively crappier experience.

 

9) Nice one. When exactly did I ever say I agree with affirmative action? For your information I'm totally against the concept. I'd like to think the quality of the work I do is enough to keep me employed, not my skin color

 

P.S. This'll be my final post here, so I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who took the time to answer questions that I had and make me feel welcome here, it was much appreciated.

[john5746]

 

P.S. This'll be my final post here, so I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who took the time to answer questions that I had and make me feel welcome here, it was much appreciated.

 

Sorry I missed you, wanted to respond to your response earlier...

 

I think all people need to look internally when something angers them to really find out why they feel that way. The anger felt from a racial slur is not instinctive, but learned. Once we understand that our feelings are generated internally, not externally, we can better control them. Does this mean we do not get upset? No. Does this mean we don't resort to violence or feel pain for a weeks? Yes.

 

I can dismiss the poorly educated of any race to a degree, but I cannot understand why a successful person would allow even the lowest person of another group to personally hurt them with words. Of course you get upset that such low-life exists, but personal hurt? They haven't changed you or either race by saying it, just lowered themselves. I realize this all is easier said then done and I still let people get the best of my emotions, but I work at it.

[ParanoiA]

P.S. This'll be my final post here, so I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who took the time to answer questions that I had and make me feel welcome here, it was much appreciated.

 

Why is this your final post? Surely not because of this thread, after all, we're here to discuss and constructively argue and debate - not to agree on anything really, that would be boring. You have some interesting points of view in your posts, I hope you'll change your mind.

[Wormwood]

Let me open by saying I hope this isn't your last post Mike; I was genuinely interested in hearing your side and discussing the differences in opinion.

 

Wormwood...

 

1) Im not saying I have the solution to the problem, merely pointing out the inequity.

Fair enough; recognizing that there is a problem is certainly the first step. But is there really a problem? If black people only make up 15-30% of a given state, and that state still elects a black representative, I would say that is pretty good representation. In fact if you look at the total % of the population that black people have made up over the years, I would say your representation has been excellent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_the_United_States_Congress

 

 

2) I know white people are discriminated against too, all races can be depending on the area your living in. And I agree racism is no reason to just give up on your life or to act irrationally, that just feeds the problem so it can go on for eternity. Believe me I wish the black community would stop going out of its way to embarass itself.

Ok, it just seemed like because you were making a contrast between the two groups, and you said that you were treated differently for being black, that you were suggesting that white people never deal with that. Sorry I misunderstood you.

 

3) Profiling IS racism if your only pulling over people based on their race. And yes there are plenty of black cops out there, that doesn't mean a lot of cops aren't racist. |Honestly I don't see where one is rerlated top the other.

Profiling is just noticing patterns and dividing your attention accordingly. I agree that no one should be hassled with unjust traffic stops, but if there are people hanging around an area or already stopped somewhere in public, i don't think they should be ignored for the sake of being PC. Also, profiling doesn't mean racism. Teenage males are profiled. If there are a bunch of thugish looking teens outside of my house, I want the police to watch them, give them a hard time, or do what it takes to drive them away from my home or business no matter what race they are and not because they have done something wrong, but because I know that they might, and teenage boys are prone to destruction and trouble. When I was profiled, it was because most young white kids in that neighborhood were there to buy drugs. It was reasonable even if it wasn't all that fair.

 

4) I don't personally blame slavery for anything, and I hate when black people try to act as if they somehow are suffering because of it. The only reason I brought slavery up is to make the point that its a link in a chain . From slavery to sharecropping to menial labor to perennial second class citizens. Sure after the act in 1968 that began to change more, but you have to think of the massive number of people growing up until and during that time that ended up being raised in projects and ghettos. That's not an environment that a large percentage of people go on from to have fantastic successful lives.

What you say does make sense on some level. It is part of the reason that I am so against illegal immigration; it's called a culture of poverty. It is self perpetuating and causes all sorts of deviant behavior. 9/10 people from a culture of poverty will always be poor. If you give them each $10,000 within a few months 9 of those people will still be poor while the 10th will have used the temporary advantage to get ahead. I know that there is truth to this phenomenon, but it is ultimately something that can't be undone from the outside. IMO the black community needs something like the black state of the union address but with more scholarly and less cartoonish people to start a process of education. I am normally against any organization that has a racial designation in the title, but I also grew up in what is essentially a large ghetto, and I know that many poor black people simply wouldn't believe or even tune in if this re-education were done for every race, or more specifically by white people. I don't say this to be racist at all; this is simply from my observations growing up with and around tens of thousands of poor black people.

 

Just to counter this; consider the Japanese Americans during WWII. They were locked up into camps and called racial slurs etc. When they were released, they flourished within a generation. There was no long recovery process, they simply picked up and rejoined society with great success. Just something to consider.

 

5) Sure a lot of those people are old. But do you really think none of them raised children to beileve the same things they do? If idiotic beliefs died with the parents we wouldn't have seen near continuous war over stuff like religion the last couple millenia.

They raised children sure, but many of the children of that era were for civil rights and TV has been brainwashing mainstream american culture with PC for years. I think the number of intentional racists is much lower than the way you make it sound. I might be wrong, but I have not personally encountered that many people that just hate other races. I have definitely met people that have strange ideas about other races, but that is usually from too little exposure and ideas from television; I wouldn't consider it hate or even mean.

 

6) Sure there are lots of black folks in prisons. That doesn't make it ok to assume every black person is a crime waiting to happen. And it shouldn't make it ok to pull over or harass people just based on their skin color if their not doing anything remotely suspicious

.

You are right. As I said above, no one should be stopped in traffic for no reason. Also, I didn't mean to imply that every black person is a crime waiting to happen, as I said, I couldn't think of a more polite way to say what I was trying to express.

 

7) Employers hire immigrants because they know they will work for next to no money and under horrible conditions usually. If its well known that certain races can be easily exploited and taken advantage of how is that not racism? their race is exactly why their being treated the way they are. And I never said employers do equate to white

It isn't racism because the Mexicans are doing it to themselves; it has nothing to do with race. Like I said, if it were ANY group of people willing to work for $4-5 an hour with no insurance, they would be raped by big business. Mexico just happens to be the poorest country we boarder and they are willingly coming here to be taken advantage of. I don't see a racial connection.

 

 

8) Never said it should help you, just shouldn't make your life an actively crappier experience.

True, but sometimes it does. It does for everyone. I may be off here, but it seems to me that many black people actively seperate themselves from mainstream culture, then get upset when they are not included. I am talking about things like de facto segragation and "african"-american. These are active steps to be seperate from a culture that they feel hostility for, but they don't realize that the manifestations of this hostility cause the seperation that they desired, but in a way they don't like. Does that sound like a fair generalization?

 

9) Nice one. When exactly did I ever say I agree with affirmative action? For your information I'm totally against the concept. I'd like to think the quality of the work I do is enough to keep me employed, not my skin color

Right on, me to. I was just being a smart*ss, but I was also pointing out that people have taken further steps to try to make things better to the point of being racist to the majority. People do care and make efforts, but if all that is ever said is how unfair and terrible everything is for one group or another, then the desire to try fades and is replaced with resentment.

 

One final thought; you think being black is a limitation, but at least you can say and think what you really feel and be proud of your race. When Ray Nagan said he wanted a chocolate New Orleans, he wasn't forced to resign, or apologize to david duke or anything. If that had been a white mayor saying he wanted to rebuild his town "white" or something to that effect, there would be a media circus and he would be forced to quit his job and even other white people would curse him on the streets. Do you know how many black specific scholarships there are? A lot. Do you know how many white specific scholarships there are? None because that would be illegal. How many groups are for black rights/special interests? How many groups exist like that for white people? What would everyone assume if I started a group about "white pride"? Just something to consider.

 

 

Again I hope this wasn't your last post Mike, I am not try to be rude or patronizing with what I say. I just want to know your perspective on some of these issues.