Crazy censorship

[bored_teen]

exactly. we have to watch our mouths. WHY??? they are just words. why are they "dirty"? the phrase "I don't give a damn" originated from another language being "I don't give a dam". The dam used to be a form of money in India. It was a coin that wasn't worth very much. So pennies = cuss words? am i the only one seeing something wrong with this?

[Dak]

i think you're right as far as 'i don't give a dam' goes, but as far as 'god damn' etc is conserned, it roots from 'damnation' (condemn to hell, or otherwize condemn).

 

'god damn', then, is technically a beseachment to god to send something to hell, and so is blasphemous.

 

why damn on it's own is rude i don't know (it's not at all over here in the uk). probably still blasphemous, or something.

[Pangloss]

exactly. we have to watch our mouths. WHY??? they are just words. why are they "dirty"? the phrase "I don't give a damn" originated from another language being "I don't give a dam". The dam used to be a form of money in India. It was a coin that wasn't worth very much. So pennies = cuss words? am i the only one seeing something wrong with this?

 

Ok, I can play Devil's Advocate.

 

Inevitably when issues like this (or video game violence or TV/movie rating systems, etc) come up, people act like all children are just-slightly-under-the-legal-drinking-age and pretty much ready for anything if only their repressed parents will let them have access. But that's just not the way the world works -- there's no way you're going to make a convincing argument that a 4 year old is able to handle the same stuff as a 12 year old. We charge parents with the legal responsibility to raise their children in a responsible manner, and then consistently yank the rug out from under them by shoving the raunchiest filth into their faces in public, regardless of their age.

 

In short, who are you to decide at what age my children are to be indoctrinated into the culture of cool and the hypnosis of hype?

[bored_teen]

in short, i'm bored_teen. in long, i'm a teenager with nothing better to do than discuss why certain words are dirty. btw, that question has yet to be answered. i'm not saying anything about age. what i personally want to know is why words are dirty at all. watch some dog shows. guess what word is tossed around more than any other. bitch. ass used to be the term for donkey. so was jackass. how did these words become dirty? 100 years from now, using the word mustard might get you a one-way ticket to Hell. WHY??? come to think of it, hell is a bad word too. yet supposedly the devil doesn't exist and is just a fairytale to get kids to behave. that's the real issue here. why are words dirty? how did they adopt such negative connotations? they are words. that's all they are. words.

[bored_teen]

btw, i would like to say this right now. i frequent the totse.com forums, and i must say, i like it much better here. you guys are intelligent people who are willing to discuss various issues in a civil, intelligent environment. totse may be good for laughs, but most of them are just stupid. i would like it stated how much i appreciate this sort of environment.

[Pangloss]

Doesn't matter why. Some subset of the community has decided that they are, and they've stated a reason which has nothing to do with personal choice, but rather with their ability to carry out an important responsibility that we've entrusted to them. Their reason has a certain logic behind it, so you have to confront it on that level. You can't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.

 

Put another way, is society willing to *force* children to confront these issues before they can walk and talk? Because if you have no restrictions, then it is force that we're talking about. Not freedom.

[someguy]

it makes no sense to teach children to use or not use certain words. you can give someone the nicest compliment in the world using "bad" words and you can hurt and insult somebody using the nicest words also. the reason words start of bad and become good is because their original meaning is actually bad or considered bad in a period of history, then later generations "misinterpret" the word or associate it with how it is used. like for instance if you say "this sucks" originally this referred to fellatio, but for a child coming into the world learning new words the term "this sucks" has nothing to do at all with fellatio and it simply means "this thing is not good" many words in the english language change like this. If you look at many of the origins of words sometimes just rereading them and forgetting their colloquial meaning you can notice this like for example.. mistake miss-take bad take to take badly or understand badly but we look at it just as the whole word meaning error because we learn words not by studying their origin but by how they are used by people. I say swear away. if nobody cares about swearing.. then nobody cares.. teaching your children not to swear just creates bad words.

 

 

but really there is a reason for such things. language and dress and other things are used as identifiers to segregate class. particularly obvious when looking in the past and at french language where it got really complex for nothing, there are multiple verb tenses that serve no real purpose and nobody really uses. but in those days when french was "in" you could clearly know that someone was rich and went to expensive schools because they could speak this way. Even today this exists i think, you might be more hard up to find the the son of a man in high society swearing casually compared to just a common man's son, therefore raising a child not to swear is considered good parenting by many people because then they could enter high society better. but i think this is disappearing more and more. So then by teaching our children to swear we may be helping end segregation and prejudice, so please do the world a favor, stop censoring and teach you children to swear and use any words they like, but only for the purpose of being good people. it doesn't matter what words you use, what vocabulary you use, how perfect your grammar is, how perfect your spelling is, it only matters what you say, the rest is just window dressing.

[ParanoiA]

that's the real issue here. why are words dirty? how did they adopt such negative connotations? they are words. that's all they are. words.

 

I completely agree. Keep fighting the good fight!

[Royston]

exactly. we have to watch our mouths. WHY??? they are just words.

 

Overlooking the origins of certain swear words, I feel the fact that certain words are insulting should be preserved. It's a good measure of the level of conviction you wish to put across in certain situations e.g

 

You've really ticked me off today...moderate annoyance.

 

My God you've p*ssed me off...quite angry, situation needs reconciling.

 

For f*cks sake, have you any f*cking idea how p*ssed off I am, you really have no f*cking clue do you, you utter *!#@ ....run away for dear life, leave this person alone for a few days.

 

TBH, although swearing when analyzed becomes meaningless, having certain words as taboo in certain situations is exactly what you need. If you know the word is insulting, then it's an ideal way to express yourself quickly without some over convoluted insult, which would be needed if it wasn't for swear words. It's all very well saying 'well they're just words', but they are powerful words...why take that away.

 

Although using swear words can be a cheap shot in many instances, I do believe they're a necessary evil, and should not fade into obscurity and lose their vehemance.

 

What else are you going to say when you stub your toe if 'arrrghh f*ck' has no conviction.

[ParanoiA]

This is a good point snail. But can't we have power and conviction without dirty? I think the focus is on the "dirty" part. You're right, in that cussing is useful, but I still don't see why my 7 year old shouldn't say "shit" rather than "crap". Kids need to be able to express conviction in their language as well. After all, we adults are a royal pain in the ass...

[Pangloss]

it makes no sense to teach children to use or not use certain words. you can give someone the nicest compliment in the world using "bad" words and you can hurt and insult somebody using the nicest words also. the reason words start of bad and become good is because their original meaning is actually bad or considered bad in a period of history, then later generations "misinterpret" the word or associate it with how it is used. like for instance if you say "this sucks" originally this referred to fellatio, but for a child coming into the world learning new words the term "this sucks" has nothing to do at all with fellatio and it simply means "this thing is not good" many words in the english language change like this. If you look at many of the origins of words sometimes just rereading them and forgetting their colloquial meaning you can notice this like for example.. mistake miss-take bad take to take badly or understand badly but we look at it just as the whole word meaning error because we learn words not by studying their origin but by how they are used by people. I say swear away. if nobody cares about swearing.. then nobody cares.. teaching your children not to swear just creates bad words.

 

I completely agree, and I thought that was really well put. The ongoing, innate conservatism of American parenting is (and has always been) a bit of a stumbling block in our society.

 

On the other hand, cultural censorship of swearing is not exactly the sort of thing that's really holding us back. On our list of socio-political priorities these days, I'd say it would have to be pretty low. So I have to watch what I say in public. Who cares? It keeps the parental types happy, and as long as I can say "oops sorry" and move on (without having to pay some sort of stupid penalty), I'm content.

 

It's only when they start talking about real censorship that I start to get concerned. Prohibiting movies if we can't police them for sub-18-year-olds, for example. Burning books. Banning video games. Please, give it a rest. Sooner or later your child is going to learn how the world works. GET OVER IT.

 

It's kinda like when parents try to tell me about the antics of their children at work. All new parents brag about their child's random discoveries (mistakenly presumed to be examples of vast potential!) as they pass through the stages of pre-sentience like Paris Hilton staring at the front page of the Wikipedia. I'll tolerate their nonsense up to a point. After that I start to get annoyed.

[MolotovCocktail]

Pretty much, I find that the only reason people think some words are "bad" is simply because "mommy/some other authority figure/society said so". People can't think for themselves!

 

Not only that, but people give these words multiple meanings. For example, the word "ass" can refer to a donkey, buttocks, a fool, or a jerk. It is somehow made more acceptable if used in conjunction or combination of another word or known phrase, such as in jackass.

[gcol]

My take is this:

 

Swearing is useful for adding degrees of emphasis, but so is poking someone in the eye with a fork at the dinner table.

Both indicate bad manners, poor social etiquette, a short and unatractive temper, and a lack of imagination in verbal communication.

 

So swear away if you must, but dont complain If I smack you in the eye for being an ignorant insulting bastard.

[Sisyphus]

I'd just like to point out that Snail totally lifted my argument from the other thread.

 

Also, there's something to be said about minor taboos on "swear words" in general. Namely, it gives them their power. Sometimes you just have to curse, and if there aren't any "dirty" words to use, you're stuck. What are you going to say when you drop something heavy on your foot? I mean, it's a joke and it's not. I remember reading in an article somewhere a hypothesis that obscenities have an important function of civilization itself: blowing off steam. The brain works in a similar way when you're cursing as when you're being angrily violent, except nobody gets hurt. So making words like **** "just a word" could be very dangerous indeed...

 

So basically, I agree. I don't mind restricting "obscenities," because I like them. Not cursing at all is missing the point; I'm in favor of only cursing well. It should be something you get in a little trouble for, because that shows you mean it....

 

Also, if it's true that vulgarity is hardwired into the brain (and I believe that it is), then there will always be "dirty" words, no matter what. Normalizing current obscenities will just force society to spawn new ones. It's not some vague authority figure decreeing some words are "bad," it's all of us, and we're going to keep doing it. Why else would every language on Earth have its own taboo words (and they do)?

[Glider]

My take is this:

 

Swearing is useful for adding degrees of emphasis, but so is poking someone in the eye with a fork at the dinner table.

 

Both indicate bad manners, poor social etiquette, a short and unatractive temper, and a lack of imagination in verbal communication.

I agree with gcol here. Swearing is an overt sign of pissed offness, but it's not usually helpful and usually reflects badly on the swearer. For example, in these hypothetical situations:

 

You've really ticked me off today...moderate annoyance.

response:Ok, you think I've done something wrong. Lets talk about it and sort something out.

 

My God you've p*ssed me off....

response:Ok, we could talk about it, but you are showing less control and have already attributed blame, so I feel less like talking about it and would you be listening anyway?

 

For f*cks sake, have you any f*cking idea how p*ssed off I am, you really have no f*cking clue do you, you utter *!#@ ....

response:F*CK YOU! (at this point you've lost control of the situation and any immediate chance of fixing it. The other person is not going to listen anyway, because they think you're a jerk. How can you hope to control a situation if you can't even control yourself?).

 

What else are you going to say when you stub your toe if 'arrrghh f*ck' has no conviction.

This is a good example. The response to stubbing your toe is driven purely by emotion, there's no thought involved at all, but nor is there any other person. Swearing might be cathartic with a stubbed toe, but so would any other noise (your pain gives it meaning), but in situations involving other people, thoughtless emotional and uncontrolled outbursts are pretty useless. This is not to say I've not done it myself, but as I say, it was useless and usually did more harm than good. Ultimately, however pissed off I was, I was the one who ended up apologising.

[Royston]

I'd just like to point out that Snail totally lifted my argument from the other thread.

 

If that was the case, my post would of started with 'Sisyphus made a good point here <insert link>'

 

Also, if it's true that vulgarity is hardwired into the brain (and I believe that it is), then there will always be "dirty" words, no matter what. Normalizing current obscenities will just force society to spawn new ones. It's not some vague authority figure decreeing some words are "bad," it's all of us, and we're going to keep doing it. Why else would every language on Earth have its own taboo words (and they do)?

 

I agree, if it wasn't for the f word, then there would be a g word, or an h word et.c

 

I agree with gcol here. Swearing is an overt sign of pissed offness, but it's not usually helpful and usually[/i'] reflects badly on the swearer. For example, in these hypothetical situations:

 

I've emphasized 'usually', because the hypotheticals were lacking context...e.g my third example, could quite easily be one guy has just found out the other guy has slept with his wife...I cetainly wouldn't expect some witty retort if that was the case, and a flood of profanities would be perfectly acceptable.

 

There's also more to wit than just words...reading a situation, and timing are also very important, and in some instances, a swear word is perfectly apt depending on how and when it's used, and which word is used. So although there maybe a lack of imagination if a swear word is used, to use a swear word effectively without looking like a moron, requires a level of skill.

 

That reminds me of a particular scene in 'Withnail and I'...if it wasn't for a certain word used when Monty wanders into the 'boys' bedroom, the scene would of lost all impact.

[ParanoiA]

But why must these words be off limits to children? Don't they have the right to be emotional and shout F#$K!! when they stub their toe?

 

These arguments aren't convincing me that these words should be off limits or taboo. There are plenty of dedicated religious folk who would take issue with the idea you need taboo words to "blow off steam". I've worked with guys in shops that do NOT curse - well, not the designated curse words anyway - instead they say crap, hell, freaking, frack...

 

It's silly to think you need taboo words - as if suddenly everyone will go crazy because there's no taboo words to air out their frustrations.

 

And where's the psychologists in the room? One person can air out their pain of a stubbed toe with "crap!!" while another needs "shit!". This is just emotion. It's not the word that's doing any magic, it's the furor being released in verbal form - and you don't need taboo for that.

 

That's why we amplify intensity and volume when we do it!

[Royston]

But why must these words be off limits to children? Don't they have the right to be emotional and shout F#$K!! when they stub their toe?

 

Providing the child knows when certain words are appropriate there shouldn't be a problem, however the child will be faced with new situations as they grow up...situations where they may not be able to gauge what language is appropriate. This could obviously get them into trouble, and could be embarrassing for the parent. Whether you think one word being more offensive than another is daft, is really beside the point, swear words do have a function, and can be very effective in the right situation, a child needs to learn this by observing, not implementing.

 

As already stated, there will always be taboo words, surely it's easier that the child is taught to refrain from using offensive language until they have enough experience to know when certain words are appropriate, which only comes with experience.

 

It's silly to think you need taboo words - as if suddenly everyone will go crazy because there's no taboo words to air out their frustrations.

 

I certainly don't think everybody is going to go crazy if taboo words were suddenly inoffensive, but as soon as that happens, people will look for words that are offensive...it's not so much as we need these words, but we can't help but have a hierarchy of obscenities.

[ParanoiA]

As already stated, there will always be taboo words, surely it's easier that the child is taught to refrain from using offensive language until they have enough experience to know when certain words are appropriate, which only comes with experience.

 

Well sure, but I thought we were debating that... I mean, you're circling back to "that's how it is", when I thought the discussion was about "why is it like this?" so to speak.

 

Yeah, I teach my kids not to curse and use their language appropriately. But I'm asking why should I have to teach my children illogical conclusions of our language? Or at least, that's part of teen's argument, and I'm right behind him.

[Pangloss]

Unfortunately young children especially love repetition ad nauseum. It's what they live for. Just TRY lifting a six-year-old over your head, spinning them around producing great gales of laughter, and then casually leaving the room. Just TRY it.

[Glider]

I've emphasized 'usually', because the hypotheticals were lacking context...e.g my third example, could quite easily be one guy has just found out the other guy has slept with his wife...I cetainly wouldn't expect some witty retort if that was the case, and a flood of profanities would be perfectly acceptable.

I agree (that's why I added the word 'usually'). There are definitely occasions that warrent a good ol' swearie. I just think they're a lot rarer than many people seem to think.

[Royston]

Yeah, I teach my kids not to curse and use their language appropriately. But I'm asking why should I have to teach my children illogical conclusions of our language? Or at least, that's part of teen's argument, and I'm right behind him.

 

Unless you ask an individual, you can't start applying logic i.e I could come to the conclusion that blasphemy is used so casually nowadays that I'd be hard pressed to find somebody who is insulted by blasphemy. How many times do you hear 'Oh my God' on television, infact I remember counting the number of times I heard that phrase when I was in the States...it was a lot.

 

Now uttering a blasphemous term should be more insulting than some word that has no logical route to why it's insulting. Using 'oh my God' in front of a devout Christian should be profoundly insulting, you're using the creator of 'all that is', the foundation of that persons belief, in some throw away, diminished term because you're late for work (as an example.) Yet that term is used so readily that many have been desensitized to it's use.

 

So why is that more acceptable than using a word that describes a part of the female anatomy...well it isn't, and unless you ask the individual what words they deem more insulting over the next, you just can't tell. Do you think you'll get a logical answer, probably not. Social stigmas, views shaped by upbringing, and even personal preference over certain words are not quantifiable, so it's a lot better to assume that certain words are better left out of the conversation until you're clear what that individual finds insulting. I realize this is all incredibly obvious but it helps answer your question...

 

Why should I have to teach my children illogical conclusions of our language?

 

Some words have been preserved for their vehemance, and severity to be used for certain situations (that's logical) however due to subjectivity each individual finds some words more insulting than others. Analysing these words deems that logically they are no more insulting / dirty than that words' counterpart e.g sh*g is no more 'dirty' than f*ck. Unless you know the individuals preference or hierachy of what they find insulting, it's impossible to assume what profanity is appropriate.

 

Whether the word loses meaning when you delve into it's past, the word has 'gained' meaning over time...and it's the current definition that we should be concerned with, as that's how it will be percieved by said individual. Of course the reverse can be applied, in that some words which are logically insulting, have 'lost' meaning over time, due to overuse.

 

Umm, I gave it a crack, I guess the short answer is...people aren't logical, so why expect a logical answer.

[Phi for All]

in short, i'm bored_teen. in long, i'm a teenager with nothing better to do than discuss why certain words are dirty. btw, that question has yet to be answered.

btw, i would like to say this right now. i frequent the totse.com forums, and i must say, i like it much better here. you guys are intelligent people who are willing to discuss various issues in a civil, intelligent environment. totse may be good for laughs, but most of them are just stupid. i would like it stated how much i appreciate this sort of environment.

I think the question has just been partially answered. There will *always* be words that are provocative, even if we declassify all the present ones more will crop up and offend people just as much. And we feel more comfortable, friendlier and intelligent when we are not out to offend.

 

It's funny then that people use foul words mostly to impress others and emphasize their "coolness". Does this mean that "cool" is the opposite of "comfortable, friendly and intelligent"?

[someguy]

It depends where and when you are in history.