Pyramid Construction, A Theory that might work.

[JohnB]

Unlike most theories on the construction of the Great Pyramid, this one might be right.

 

The theory by French architect Jean-Pierre Houdin is featured in the latest edition of Archaeology, publish by the Archaeological Institute of America is a doozy.

 

The idea of an internal spiral ramp is the best I've heard of and if true will solve a 4,500 year old mystery. It would also show the Egyptians to be greater architects and engineers than we ever thought.

[Ophiolite]

Very interesting. May I ask why you have posted it in pseudoscience?

[insane_alien]

...and speculations.

[spooky]

We know who built the Great Pyramid: the pharaoh Khufu...

 

There is one technicality in the Article, As I'm sure your already aware. The Pharaohs declared and ordered the buildings to be built, but its believed that the slaves actually constructed the pyramids themselves.

[JohnB]

and speculations

It was a toss up between here and "General Discussion" but I thought due to the lack of supporting evidence "Speculations" would be more appropriate. Since the only supporting evidence is the microgravimetric readings of 20 odd years ago it's more hypothesis than theory.

 

It's also unlikely that the researchers will get permission to conduct further tests in the near future as Giza El Supremo Zawi Hawass is firmly committed to the "External Spiral Ramp" theory and a self styled God hates to be wrong.

 

Spooky, we say that Khufu "built" the pyramid because he was the Pharaoh involved in the same fashion that we might say "The AMP building" today. Employees of the AMP didn't build the tower but the AMP did supply the money.

 

Also, it is no longer thought that slaves were involved in the construction of Pyramids and later tombs. During the "Flood Months" farmers and similar workers had nothing to do so they worked for a time on government construcion sites, Pyramids being one type of construction. The professional Quarrymen and Stoneworkers were employed persons in their own right.

 

All however, under the Socio/Religio/Economic system of 4th Dynasty Egypt viewed their Pharaoh as the living God "Horus", who, on his physical "death" would transform into the god "Osiris". It was an honour to help create the "Place of Eternal Rest" for his physical remains.

[spooky]

okay. ^.^ thanks for correcting me on that one JohnB.

Misunderstood completely.

[bascule]

I preferred this explanation:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20070522/sc_livescience/thesurprisingtruthbehindtheconstructionofthegreatpyramids

 

The limestone blocks were poured into place from a cement-like substance

[JohnB]

While a fresh eye can lead to new insights, that theory goes to prove that experts in one field shouldn't dabble in another.

The stones also had a high water content—unusual for the normally dry, natural limestone found on the Giza plateau

The quarry for the core stones of the GP was about 750 metres south-east of the GP and dug down to the water table. That being the case it is highly unlikely that Giza limestone is "normally dry". If I can direct you to this article by the geologist Colin Reader, Figure 2 clearly shows how close the water is to the old quarry sites.

 

Further, if the rock was going to be cast, why on earth cut it out of the quarry in neat blocks?

How is it possible that some of the blocks are so perfectly matched that not even a human hair can be inserted between them?

Because our ancestors were a lot smarter than many modern technologists give them credit for. The same precision is seen at Machu Picchu.

I can only assume that Barsoum's next great endeavour will be to show this wall is reconstituted granite.

Why, despite the existence of millions of tons of stone, carved presumably with copper chisels, has not one copper chisel ever been found on the Giza Plateau?

Um, because we haven't finished excavating the site yet? Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. We haven't found a "Nemes" headdress or the remains of a Trireme yet either. The big mystery here is how the hell did they cut and shape granite with copper tools?

 

Barsoum should stick to ceramics.

[bombus]

There is no mystery to how the Pyramids were built! This is a myth. Go to Egypt and ask a guide!

[richard]

I saw a little on this on tv. They used copper saw blades that were smooth but put sand under the blade. They continued to add sand throughout the cut and some sand impregnated the blade. Copper chisels were used to dress softer stone and sand and a block to smooth it.

[JohnB]

There is no mystery to how the Pyramids were built! This is a myth. Go to Egypt and ask a guide!

You are kidding, aren't you?

[bombus]

You are kidding, aren't you?

 

Absolutely not.

[JohnB]

What do the guides say?

[the tree]

That they put one brick on top of the other and repeated the process until the pyramid was built?

[bombus]

Well, the blocks were quarried and shaped using traditional methods, then were transported on wooden rafts during flood season to where they needed to go (the nile used to completely flood the entire area). They were then hauled up using traditional technologies, similar to that used to build stonehenge, ziggurats, south american ancient cites etc and the whole things were finished with alabaster.

 

All that was needed was plenty of time, food, slaves - and whips!

 

The idea that there is a great mystery to how they were built is a myth.

 

However, one very puzzling thing about the ancient Egyptians is the Sphinx at Giza:

 

From wikipedia:

English geologist and secretary of The Manchester Ancient Egypt Society Colin Reader who has studied the weathering patterns as well, agrees the weathering occurred from heavy water erosion, but concludes that the Sphinx is only several hundred years older than the traditionally accepted date believing the Sphinx to be a product of the Early Dynastic period.[14] Independently, geologist David Coxill has also come forward to confirm in principle Schoch’s findings, but like Reader has taken a more conservative approach to the dating of the Sphinx, yet concludes: “Nevertheless, it (the Sphinx) is clearly older than the traditional date for the origins of the Sphinx-in the reign of Khafre, 2520-2490 B.C.”[15] Both Schoch and Reader base their conclusions not only on the Sphinx and surrounding enclosure, but have also taken into account other congruent weathering features found on the Giza plateau from monuments such as the Sphinx Temple which are known to be consistent with the time period the Sphinx was constructed.

 

This theory has not been accepted by mainstream Egyptologists. Alternative theories offered by Egytologists for the erosion include wind and sand, acid rain, exfoliation or the poor quality of the limestone used to construct the Sphinx. Schoch, Reader, and Coxill have independently argued, regardless of when the Sphinx was actually built, that none of these explanations can account for what they consider as geologists to be “classic” water erosion patterns.

 

Schoch has also noted as have others that the clearly evident disproportionately small size of the head compared to the body suggests the head to have been originally that of a lion, but later re-carved to give the likeness of a pharaoh. This implies that the Egyptian Kings were the inheritors of an already existing structure of which they re-made in their own image to give provenance over the monument.[16]

[CPL.Luke]

bombus, what exactly is the traditional method for hauling 10 ton blocks 600 feet into the air?

 

also the paramids weren't built by slaves, recent evidence indicates that they were merely farmers who found work building the pyramids during the off season where there was little to do on a farm.

[bombus]

bombus, what exactly is the traditional method for hauling 10 ton blocks 600 feet into the air?

 

also the paramids weren't built by slaves, recent evidence indicates that they were merely farmers who found work building the pyramids during the off season where there was little to do on a farm.

 

Beware of thinking that it's a near impossible feat. The blue stones at stonehenge were transported hundreds of miles by neolithic man, and they were far less advanced than the Egyptians!

 

There are a number of methods that could have been employed and we don't know exactly which one they used - but that's not the same as saying 'we don't know how they built the pyramids".

 

Probably, huge ramps going right around the pyramid were used with logs and ropes and plenty of manpower. It would have been very similar to how the Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, and Babylonians built stuff.

 

You are probably right about them being farmers rather than slaves, but the joke about plenty of whips wouldn't have worked!

[CPL.Luke]

and you have just restated the mistery of pyramid construction. Somebody always comes up with a way they could have done it, and then someone else shows that they couldn't have done it that way etc. etc.

 

currently the ramp idea is the most popular one however this thread was started to explore another newer option which seems to be credible.

[foodchain]

The one theory I heard and liked though don’t know if it was true was that they made enormous mounds of sand and worked down from the top using the sand as sort of a base, i cant remember where I picked that up though.

[bombus]

and you have just restated the mistery of pyramid construction. Somebody always comes up with a way they could have done it, and then someone else shows that they couldn't have done it that way etc. etc.

 

currently the ramp idea is the most popular one however this thread was started to explore another newer option which seems to be credible.

 

I think I disagree. If I arrive at your house you might not know whether I arrived by bus, car, taxi, bicycle, or walked, however it is not much of a "mystery", and I am sure you wouldn't jump to the conclusion that I arrived by micro-lite, hovercraft, helicopter, flying saucer or teleportation.

 

This "mystery" applies equally to all the other buildings/civilisations I mentioned, not just the pyramids.

 

To me the only mystery to me is why people think it's such a profound mystery:-)!

 

It's not as interesting as the Sphinx, which may actually be 10,000 years old as it appears to be weathered by rain...

[JohnB]

This "mystery" applies equally to all the other buildings/civilisations I mentioned, not just the pyramids.

Actually the Greco-Roman building methods are well known and documented. The Assyrians and Babylonians didn't build large structures in stone, they used mud-brick construction. The pyramids were the first large scale stone constructions in the world.

 

The 4th Dynasty Egyptians did not have the wheel, pulleys ar rollers, they used skids with oil poured in front to ease friction. (A method still used in the time of Ramses the Great.

 

Bombus, just so that my meaning is clear. I view the mystery of the Pyramids as something similar to to the mystery of a good magic trick. It leaves you sitting there wondering, "How the hell did they do that?".

 

Bottom line, both the "One Large Ramp" and the "Spiral Ramp" theories have been shown to be completely unworkable, so we are left with "How the hell did they do it?"

 

As to the Sphinx, I watch with great interest as the various Geologists form ranks and try to destroy each other. I must admit, I'm rather surprised by the mainstream Egyptologists and their unthinking defence of current theories, considering that they have absolutely no evidence to support their ideas.

[CPL.Luke]

it probably comesfrom talking to quacks all day

[bombus]

The Assyrians and Babylonians didn't build large structures in stone, they used mud-brick construction. The pyramids were the first large scale stone constructions in the world.

 

Fair point, I should have left them out!

 

The 4th Dynasty Egyptians did not have the wheel, pulleys ar rollers, they used skids with oil poured in front to ease friction. (A method still used in the time of Ramses the Great.

 

Maybe it was more efficient than rollers once you had a smooth surface. I'm sure they knew how to use rollers, I mean they knew that in neolithic cultures.

 

Bombus, just so that my meaning is clear. I view the mystery of the Pyramids as something similar to to the mystery of a good magic trick. It leaves you sitting there wondering, "How the hell did they do that?".

 

OK, you're not talking about space aliens!

 

Bottom line, both the "One Large Ramp" and the "Spiral Ramp" theories have been shown to be completely unworkable, so we are left with "How the hell did they do it?"

 

I'm not sure these ideas are unworkable. I have seen a TV program where they built a small pyramid using 'ancient' techniques, and the conclusion was that the same techniques would work equally well with larger pyramids. Also, they are pyramidal for a reason - they are the simplest large constructions to build. I bet there's a lot of effort done by the 'loonies' to debunk simple methods of construction.

 

As to the Sphinx, I watch with great interest as the various Geologists form ranks and try to destroy each other. I must admit, I'm rather surprised by the mainstream Egyptologists and their unthinking defence of current theories, considering that they have absolutely no evidence to support their ideas.

 

Agreed!

[JohnB]

OK, you're not talking about space aliens!

I was wondering if you thought I might be. Thinking about it, perhaps "puzzle" is a better term than "mystery".

I bet there's a lot of effort done by the 'loonies' to debunk simple methods of construction.

No, just engineers and basic logic.

 

The first version of the "One Ramp" theory was that the ramp was made of rubble. Engineers pointed out that a rubble type ramp would collapse under it's own weight. Version 2 of the theory was that the ramp was made of stone with a rubble fill. Engineers showed that the ramp would now weigh 3 times as much as the pyramid itself and still collapse under it's own weight. As well as the fact that there is no evidence of such a ramp ever existing.

 

From this came the "Spiral Ramp" theory. This does away with the large ramp in favour of a smaller one winding around the pyramid. While nice in theory it not possible in practice. The only straight measuring tool available at the time was a string-line. As soon as you put a ramp on the side of the pyramid you can no longer take accurate measurements of either length or plumb. Remember that the sides of the GP are not straight, but angle in slightly to the centre of the baseline and then angle out again. Use of a spiral ramp renders the surveying tools of the time unusable.

 

One thing I find fascinating in all the "Ramp" theories is the idea of lubricant. All the ramps were supposed to have a clay mix on their surface which when wet became extremely slippery. Great idea, wet the clay and the sled with the stone slides easier. So, where do the teams of men pulling the sled walk? On the same ramp topped with wet, slippery clay?

I have seen a TV program where they built a small pyramid using 'ancient' techniques, and the conclusion was that the same techniques would work equally well with larger pyramids.

I've seen similar myself and find them a bit misleading. If the program is the one I'm thinking of, a transcript can be found here. A PBS program where they used 189 precut blocks to make a pyramid about 6 metres high. (The forklift, trucks and front-end loader were only there by accident, they didn't really use them, honest.) Just because you can use an "ancient" technique to raise a 1 tonne block 5 metres does not mean that you can use the same technique to raise a 17 tonne block 100 metres.

 

So far, all attempts to try these ideas at full scale have failed. The puzzle remains just that, a puzzle.

[entwined]

Suppose they constructed a long ramp from sand and placed the ropes (4 perhaps) on the ramp first and then rolled the block onto the ropes until the ends were sticking out far enough to toss them over the top of the block, then get as many men as necessary to pull on the rope thereby basically rolling the block up the ramp?

 

The sand would prevent the block from being damaged in transit and when they got to the top of the layer, they could just shove the son of a bitch into place.

 

When that layer was finished, lenghten the ramp and increase the height. When they got done, haul the sand away.