psychedelic drugs cause depression

[gib65]

Is it a scientific fact that certain psychedelic drugs cause depression and/or anxiety? I've heard rumors from a couple sources that it's true. One source sited a whole list on online articles linking marijuana in particular to depression and anxiety, but they were all US government sites (so there may be a bit of anti-drug propaganda involved).

 

If it's true, I'd like to know more. I'm not sure what specific questions I'd like to ask, so maybe we can devote this thread to a general discussion on the topic. That being said, the kinds of questions I'm inclined to ask are: Is it any psychedelic or just a select few (like marijuana)? Is it a strict chemical cause or is it due more to the kinds of experiences one has while high (so conscious or unconscious)? Is everyone equally susceptible or just certain types? How frequently does one have to do drugs in order to be significantly effected? Could we argue that it's at least balanced out with positive effects?

 

I realize these kinds of questions don't have one clear and direct answer, but that's a good reason to leave this thread open to a general discussion, the experts shedding light on the subject overall.

[foodchain]

Is it a scientific fact that certain psychedelic drugs cause depression and/or anxiety? I've heard rumors from a couple sources that it's true. One source sited a whole list on online articles linking marijuana in particular to depression and anxiety, but they were all US government sites (so there may be a bit of anti-drug propaganda involved).

 

If it's true, I'd like to know more. I'm not sure what specific questions I'd like to ask, so maybe we can devote this thread to a general discussion on the topic. That being said, the kinds of questions I'm inclined to ask are: Is it any psychedelic or just a select few (like marijuana)? Is it a strict chemical cause or is it due more to the kinds of experiences one has while high (so conscious or unconscious)? Is everyone equally susceptible or just certain types? How frequently does one have to do drugs in order to be significantly effected? Could we argue that it's at least balanced out with positive effects?

 

I realize these kinds of questions don't have one clear and direct answer, but that's a good reason to leave this thread open to a general discussion, the experts shedding light on the subject overall.

 

I don’t understand what you mean. If you go to youtube for instance and query LSD you can get all kinds of strange videos, some ranging from the past. They gave a unit of British soldiers LSD and save for a couple of them most of them ended up laughing and being unable to continue on with work. Some of them had adverse reactions, though if that were per say purely biological or somewhere in-between it did not specify. I don’t think they did long term exposure though. If you mean towards more organic drugs, such as those found in mushrooms, there are more then say one compound in such that actually is active in a psychological role. One way you could study such is by looking at cultures that use such commonly, compared to say in America in which its easier to find drugs among the young for instance. Drugs like the kind you are referring to hold different profiles depending on the culture, so my best advice really is to look at it from that perspective.

 

If you simply mean that via the drug you become depressed, I don’t know of or have heard of any particular drug that does that. One things that most drugs have in common though is basically morphing your dopamine receptors I think, which does change you as a person to a certain extent, but its not just drugs that elicit hallucinations from use, which BTW I have never heard of marijuana being able to do such, make a person hallucinate that is.

[1veedo]

Marijuana may actually treat depression; it has been considered for medical purposes, although in most of the world this is illegal. Any connection between marijuana and depression is usually correlation study where depressed people are more likely to do drugs and thus marijuana, not necessarily the other way around.

 

There are however risks to using marijuana because it can cause people to be more secluded and socially withdrawn (smoking pot instead of going out etc). So although marijuana has chemical properties that cures depression, using it may actually worsen symptoms. If it were used medically (eg w/ the particular "active ingredients" so to speak that treat depression) it could actually be very effective.

 

The science though isn't clear yet especially sense it's illegal to actually study the drug in the Untied States and Britain. It's surprising how much research is out there though. Makes you wonder what the government thinks because it's obvious some of these scientists have broke the law. I always thought it was funny because there's this product called "black hole" apatite stimulant for bodybuilders which was derived directly from marijuana. I've never used marijuana but I know people who do and they say it makes you hungry... http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/black.html

 

Right there is undeniable proof that Controlled Labs is breaking the law and what does the government do? Nothing! Kind of like how people post about smoking pot on their myspace pages. Why they don't just bust all the people who publicly admit to smoking it, I don't know.

 

Btw all of this info found here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=XGd&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=marijuana+depression&spell=1

 

It's amazing how google knows just about everything

[1veedo]

If you simply mean that via the drug you become depressed, I don’t know of or have heard of any particular drug that does that. One things that most drugs have in common though is basically morphing your dopamine receptors I think, which does change you as a person to a certain extent, but its not just drugs that elicit hallucinations from use, which BTW I have never heard of marijuana being able to do such, make a person hallucinate that is.

Marijuana can make you hallucinate just in case you were wondering. It's not a hallucinogen but some users (not all) experience hallucinations (not sure why/how you accomplish this though).

 

But what most drugs [that make you high] have in common is increased dopamine. All drugs that make you high share a common set of side-effects called like dopomatic-typical responses or something. Increased dopamine can cause schizotypy characteristics. That's why pictures of "your brain on crack" look suspiciously like a schizophrenic brain (atrophied, holes, etc). Individual drugs of course have more side-effects then just the basic side-effects caused by increase dopamine receptor activity but they all have at the very least these sorts of side-effects similar to psychosis.

 

edit -- source in case you want it: Myers, David G. (2006) Psychology, 8ed.

[Realitycheck]

Just go to this site,

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Pager&db=pubmed

 

type in "psychedelic drugs depression" in the search field, and check out the 713 studies done on it, many of which are independently done.

 

 

My knee-jerk reaction regarding how psychedelic drugs directly cause depression generally regards depression generated by not having enough money to maintain a designer drug type of high for very long or very often, plus the effect this has on other aspects of life, such as lower standards of living, what people will do to maintain their lifestyle or heighten it further, etc. People who get high don't like coming down. It's just sooo boring to have to deal with reality.

[foodchain]

Marijuana can make you hallucinate just in case you were wondering. It's not a hallucinogen but some users (not all) experience hallucinations (not sure why/how you accomplish this though).

 

But what most drugs [that make you high] have in common is increased dopamine. All drugs that make you high share a common set of side-effects called like dopomatic-typical responses or something. Increased dopamine can cause schizotypy characteristics. That's why pictures of "your brain on crack" look suspiciously like a schizophrenic brain (atrophied, holes, etc). Individual drugs of course have more side-effects then just the basic side-effects caused by increase dopamine receptor activity but they all have at the very least these sorts of side-effects similar to psychosis.

 

edit -- source in case you want it: Myers, David G. (2006) Psychology, 8ed.

 

For what its worth I have only ever heard about people becoming schizoid on drugs like meth and cocaine. I also have never heard about people retaining severe symptoms permanently from drug use save for drugs like meth and cocaine/crack/heroine. Not to say that such does not occur, I just have never heard of that before. I also know that while on the drug meth for instance, your brainwaves are very similar to those of a person with schizophrenia, and such becomes more pronounced in time, and that meth does "eat" holes in your brain. The problem with drugs like those are the ease in which the addict the user and the magnitude of that addiction. I am pretty sure though that heavy use or not practicing moderation with anything, from racing your car to eating cheeseburgers is rather hazardous for health.

 

Not to want to make people use drugs, but here is a nifty little snip.

 

"Marijuana Cuts Lung Cancer Tumor Growth In Half, Study Shows

Science Daily — The active ingredient in marijuana cuts tumor growth in common lung cancer in half and significantly reduces the ability of the cancer to spread, say researchers at Harvard University who tested the chemical in both lab and mouse studies."

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm

 

I have also read different studies from different psychologists that say yes or no to marijuana having any real impact, plus for what its worth studied from a medical perspective I think it supports a more positive impact then a negative one, but then again a generation of "potheads" probably will not get much done:D

[1veedo]

Marijuana is actually safer then alcohol. The reason marijuana is still outlawed is because lobbyists from the alcohol industry dont want it taking business away.

 

The difference foodchain between drugs like meth/cocaine/crack/heroin/[lsd] and alcohol/marijuana is that the former are a little more "powerful" in regard to increasing dopamine receptor activity. Meth is actually in a class all of it's own. It has a 99% addiction rate after only one use. A lot of its sideeffects come from all the corrosive chemicals that once introduced do a lot of damage to the brain (when produced illicitly). There's a little patch of 200 cells that connect your cortex to the hypothalamus which can be destroyed after 6 months of moderate alcohol use. You only have to try meth once to completely destroy that chain of cells which is why it's so addicting (you cant control the urge to try it again).

 

Marijuana and alcohol can cause some of the psychosis-similar sideeffects over longterm use. Marijuana though may only cause this risk under high doses. According to the article bellow, higher intake of THC can cause hallucination, so that answers my question from above. The article also indicates a predisposition to psychosis in order for marijuana to trigger it while not actually on the drug. There's a condition known as cannabis psychosis in the DSM where certain individuals can trigger psychosis through cannabis.

 

Cécile Henquet etal. (2004). "Prospective cohort study of cannabis use, predisposition for psychosis, and psychotic symptoms in young people" British Medical Journal

 

You're right though that most people don't get psychotic symptoms with marijuana. And the only long-term effects associated with marijuana is impairment of learning and memory, not including the effects of actually smoking it, which happen to be much less severe then smoking btw.

 

 

When analyzing the risks for depression you have to specify whether you're talking about the chemical properties of a drug or the actual use of it. So if you're asking about medical purposes, can psychedelic drugs, on a chemical level, cause depression, the answer is that it depends on the drug. Meth causes depression. Marijuana actually cures it. But using both marijuana or meth can increase your risk for depression because of the social consequences associated with drug use.

[MolotovCocktail]

Marijuana may actually treat depression; it has been considered for medical purposes' date=' although in most of the world this is illegal.

[/quote']

 

I don't think so. While it does increase levels of dopamine (as with any other drugs that give you a "high"), it doesn't really treat any of the symptoms. All it really does is put a person in a relaxed state for a limited time. Anti-depressants aim to increase and/or regulate the amount of neurotransmitters in the brain.

 

Any connection between marijuana and depression is usually correlation study where depressed people are more likely to do drugs and thus marijuana, not necessarily the other way around.

 

Yeah this is true. I googled it. In fact, marijuana use can increase the risk of depression because of the adverse affects on social, academic, and personal life.

 

There are however risks to using marijuana because it can cause people to be more secluded and socially withdrawn (smoking pot instead of going out etc). So although marijuana has chemical properties that cures depression, using it may actually worsen symptoms. If it were used medically (eg w/ the particular "active ingredients" so to speak that treat depression) it could actually be very effective.

 

Again read my earlier statement.

 

The science though isn't clear yet especially sense it's illegal to actually study the drug in the Untied States and Britain. It's surprising how much research is out there though. Makes you wonder what the government thinks because it's obvious some of these scientists have broke the law. I always thought it was funny because there's this product called "black hole" apatite stimulant for bodybuilders which was derived directly from marijuana. I've never used marijuana but I know people who do and they say it makes you hungry... http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/clabs/black.html

 

There is research, even controlled experiments, revolving around medical uses of marijuana as treatment to ease side-effects of chemotherapy, a pain killer, to help relieve symptoms of epilepsy, and treatment of cancer. Conventional medications are preferred though since they are more effective. Most of the time, they use the active drug THC in their experiments so technically it is legal. Also, studies about adverse affects come directly from the drug abusers themselves.

 

Kind of like how people post about smoking pot on their myspace pages. Why they don't just bust all the people who publicly admit to smoking it, I don't know.

 

On a similar note, I read somewhere that there is a public school in New York in which their students openly smoke pot and they don't do a thing about it. Its listed in the second paragraph, but just remember this is a student account so its factuality may be questionable. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was true .

 

Marijuana is actually safer then alcohol. The reason marijuana is still outlawed is because lobbyists from the alcohol industry dont want it taking business away.

 

This is true. It is all political. We would probably be much better off if Marijuana was legal, since we wouldn't have to spend tens of billions of dollars on drug trafficking, jails, random searches, and there wouldn't be so much social stigma, or acceptance should I say, of the drug. Also, it would be easier to actually help people addicted to it since they wouldn't be afraid to tell anybody.

 

When analyzing the risks for depression you have to specify whether you're talking about the chemical properties of a drug or the actual use of it. So if you're asking about medical purposes, can psychedelic drugs, on a chemical level, cause depression, the answer is that it depends on the drug. Meth causes depression. Marijuana actually cures it. But using both marijuana or meth can increase your risk for depression because of the social consequences associated with drug use.

 

No, this is wrong. While these drugs may increase the risk of depression because of the adverse affects on their body and life, it doesn't cause depression. Likewise, euphoric affects are not to be confused as treatment. Marijuana doesn't cure depression, or treat any of its symptoms.

[1veedo]

There is evidence that marijuana may have antidepressant properties on a chemical level. This is what I was talking about. The depressive effects of marijuana are on a more social level while chemically it may in fact treat depression.

Anti-depressants aim to increase and/or regulate the amount of neurotransmitters in the brain.

 

"A surprising number of people so afflicted [with bi-polar disorder] have independently made the discovery that cannabis has improved their conditions, whether the mania or depression. It may also reduce side effects of other drugs used in its treatment, such as Lithium, Carbamazepine (Tegretol) or Valproate (Depakote).

 

No doubt, cannabis is affecting the balance of neurotransmitters that are at the basis for this disorder.

 

Endocannabinoids seem to be intimately involved in emotional regulation mechanisms in the limbic system. Because THC and other chemicals in cannabis mimic our own internal biochemistry, they may help replace what is missing." (Ethan Russo Cannabis Health 2002 Vol1)

 

Meth on the other hand chemically causes depression on top of even worse social consequences of withdrawal and apathy.

[MolotovCocktail]

There is evidence that marijuana may have antidepressant properties on a chemical level. This is what I was talking about. The depressive effects of marijuana are on a more social level while chemically it may in fact treat depression.

 

"A surprising number of people so afflicted [with bi-polar disorder] have independently made the discovery that cannabis has improved their conditions, whether the mania or depression. It may also reduce side effects of other drugs used in its treatment, such as Lithium, Carbamazepine (Tegretol) or Valproate (Depakote).

 

No doubt, cannabis is affecting the balance of neurotransmitters that are at the basis for this disorder.

 

Endocannabinoids seem to be intimately involved in emotional regulation mechanisms in the limbic system. Because THC and other chemicals in cannabis mimic our own internal biochemistry, they may help replace what is missing." (Ethan Russo Cannabis Health 2002 Vol1)

 

Meth on the other hand chemically causes depression on top of even worse social consequences of withdrawal and apathy.

 

Oh really now. Well, let me see this so-called source. While my sources (e.g. British Medical Journal, NIH, RC Psych, etc.) do cite the use of cannabis, or more specifically THC, as a chemical that could potentially deal with side effects of chemotherapy or even AIDS (weight-loss that is), they never state that it can deal with symptoms of depression. Rather, their findings contradict your source and state that such drugs can be detrimental to both physical and mental health.

 

Here is one of many sources:

 

 

There are about 60 compounds and 400 chemicals in an average cannabis plant. The four main compounds are called delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta-9-THC)' date=' cannabidiol, delta-8-tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabinol. Apart from cannabidiol (CBD), these compounds are psychoactive, the strongest one being delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol. The stronger varieties of the plant contain little cannabidiol (CBD), whilst the delta-9-THC content is a lot higher.

 

When cannabis is smoked, its compounds rapidly enters the bloodstream and are transported directly to the brain and other parts of the body. The feeling of being ‘stoned’ or ‘high’ is caused mainly by the delta-9-THC binding to cannabinoid receptors in the brain. A receptor is a site on brain cell where certain substances can stick or “bind” for a while. If this happens, it has an effect on the cell and the nerve impulses it produces. Curiously, there are also cannabis-like substances produced naturally by the brain itself – these are called endocannabinoids.

 

Most of these receptors are found in the parts of the brain [b']that influence[/b] pleasure, memory, thought, concentration, sensory and time perception. Cannabis compounds can also affect the eyes, the ears, the skin and the stomach.

 

 

So far, nothing that would indicate its usefulness in treating clinical depression. Anti-depressants focus on Serotonin in any case, not the THC receptors, or Dopamine for that matter.

 

 

 

 

...........A study following 1600 Australian school-children, aged 14 to 15 for seven years, found that while children who use cannabis regularly have a significantly higher risk of depression, the opposite was not the case - children who already suffered from depression were not more likely than anyone else to use

cannabis. However, adolescents who used cannabis daily were five times more likely to develop depression and anxiety in later life.

 

 

 

 

By the way, I looked up this Ethan Russo and I find his material very sketchy. He doesn't seem to be important enough to be on Wikipedia, and I googled his books and he is cited by various liberal and conspiracy sites. He seems to be promising that marijuana can do a whole bunch of things ranging from depression to curing headaches and migraines and even chronic illnesses such as Arthritis but doesn't seem to have any real experimental evidence in his favor. Also, in your quote he doesn't even say what those transmitters are.

 

A surprising number of people so afflicted [with bi-polar disorder] have independently made the discovery that cannabis has improved their conditions' date=' whether the mania or depression. It may also reduce side effects of other drugs used in its treatment, such as Lithium, Carbamazepine (Tegretol) or Valproate (Depakote).

[/quote']

 

Very sketchy indeed. He is using anecdotes to back his claims.

 

Be careful with your sources, this is a tactic used by medical quacks to promote unconventional or alternative medications. Just because he is a medical professional doesn't mean that he isn't incapable of medical quackery.

 

Meth on the other hand chemically causes depression on top of even worse social consequences of withdrawal and apathy.

 

Source? As far as I know' date=' Methamphetamine does not cause depression. Rather, "Methamphetamine [b']increases the release of very high levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine, which stimulates brain cells, enhancing mood and body movement[/b]. Chronic methamphetamine abuse significantly changes how the brain functions. Animal research going back more than 30 years shows that high doses of methamphetamine damage neuron cell endings. Dopamine- and serotonin-containing neurons do not die after methamphetamine use, but their nerve endings (“terminals”) are cut back, and regrowth appears to be limited. Noninvasive human brain imaging studies have shown alterations in the activity of the dopamine system. These alterations are associated with reduced motor speed and impaired verbal learning. Recent studies in chronic methamphetamine abusers have also revealed severe structural and functional changes in areas of the brain associated with emotion and memory, which may account for many of the emotional and cognitive problems observed in chronic methamphetamine abusers." (NIDA Infofacts: Methamphetamine. Revised 3/07. http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/methamphetamine.html).

 

Methamphetamine may cause people to display some symptoms associated with depression in the long run, but it does not cause it per se. But I can see how it leads to an increased risk of depression.

 

 

Come on! Did you actually think that a silly little book written by some no-name doctor was going to discredit me? You can do better than that... Otherwise, leave this to someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

[1veedo]

Jesus I'm not trying to start something here

 

I was reading your link and found this, which is what I was talking about earlier in post #4. "Research findings for long-term marijuana abuse indicate some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term abuse of other major drugs. For example, cannabinoid (THC or synthetic forms of THC) withdrawal in chronically exposed animals leads to an increase in the activation of the stress-response system5 and changes in the activity of nerve cells containing dopamine6. Dopamine neurons are involved in the regulation of motivation and reward, and are directly or indirectly affected by all drugs of abuse." The specifics about schizophrenia are again found in this study: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinformation/mentalhealthproblems/alcoholanddrugs/cannabisandmentalhealth.aspx

 

"Regular use of the drug has appeared to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia."

 

I don't really have any direct research talking about dopamine stimulation from drug use and psychosis and but from what I've read in different sources (eg the two above) this does seem to be the case.

 

Just FYI further down from that quote, "Over the past few years, research has strongly suggested that there is a clear link between early cannabis use and later mental health problems in those with a genetic vulnerability - and that there is a particular issue with the use of cannabis by adolescents." -- this is exactly what I was talking about above in my Cécile Henquet et al study "Prospective cohort study of cannabis use, predisposition for psychosis, and psychotic symptoms in young people" (British Medical Journal). This does not deal with depression, though, only the schizo-type side-effects from smoking marijuana.

Depression

 

A study following 1600 Australian school-children, aged 14 to 15 for seven years, found that while children who use cannabis regularly have a significantly higher risk of depression, the opposite was not the case - children who already suffered from depression were not more likely than anyone else to use

 

cannabis. However, adolescents who used cannabis daily were five times more likely to develop depression and anxiety in later life.

Again this is because of the social effects of drug use, not the chemical effects of marijuana. Saying "their findings contradict your source" because "drugs can be detrimental to both physical and mental health" is a straw man. It can cause psychosis (*cough* be bad for mental health) on a chemical level, be bad for your body physically (eg smoking), and cause depression on a "social" level, but it does not cause depression on a chemical level.

 

We must segregate between chemical properties of a drug and other effects typical of drug use.

So far, nothing that would indicate its usefulness in treating clinical depression. Anti-depressants focus on Serotonin in any case, not the THC receptors, or Dopamine for that matter.

This is an argument from ignorance. Just because your article doesn't claim anti-depressant properties does not mean that they don't exist. One the contrary I clearly provided a source claiming that they do.

By the way, I looked up this Ethan Russo and I find his material very sketchy. He doesn't seem to be important enough to be on Wikipedia, and I googled his books and he is cited by various liberal and conspiracy sites. He seems to be promising that marijuana can do a whole bunch of things ranging from depression to curing headaches and migraines and even chronic illnesses such as Arthritis but doesn't seem to have any real experimental evidence in his favor. Also, in your quote he doesn't even say what those transmitters are.

This is all ad-hominem. There are actually multiple other journal articles that make the same claims anyway.

 

http://www.medicalmarijuanaprocon.org/bin/procon/procon.cgi?database=5-D-Subs-7.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=11&rnd=280.58184875715443

 

If you read down the list you'll find a motif: the pro "marijuana does cause depression" is from the social effects of drug use and the con focuses more on the chemical effects of cannabis. I'm not claiming that if you smoke marijuana you will treat depression. On the contrary I have clearly posted above that the opposite is actually the case. There is however substantial evidence that marijuana contains anti-depressant properties.

[1veedo]

Methamphetamine may cause people to display some symptoms associated with depression in the long run, but it does not cause it per se. But I can see how it leads to an increased risk of depression.

Well this is more what I was talking about. Meth is very bad for you brain (lol in case you didn't know) -- it really ****s you up. Not necessarily the meth itself but all of the other chemicals that come along with it. Most meth adics use a coffee filter when producing the drug but this doesn't remove any chemical substances that are bad for you.

 

Meth over time alters the way your body produces and reacts to dopamine, specifically dopamine doesn't "work" as well as it should. Activities that users once found enjoyable are no longer enjoyable. What's interesting here is that while on meth the user again finds these activities enjoyable. It gets to a point where you have to have meth in order to enjoy anything and NOT be depressed, and this includes even sex. Sex becomes so unpleasurable that after long-term use it's impossible to have sex while not on the drug.

 

No, meth most definitely causes depression, on a chemical level, and I don't think there should be any discrepancy here. Depression is actually one of the main side-effects of meth -- after a while nothing tastes good, nothing feels good -- nothing is enjoyable period unless you're on meth. At this point meth doesn't even cause the user to really be high like before, they just need to have it on a chemical level to function, period, in daily life, and while they're not on meth they become extremely depressed. Meth in other words becomes the "cure" to the negative side-effects that it causes.

[MolotovCocktail]

Jesus I'm not trying to start something here

 

Neither am I' date=' but I'll calm down.

 

I was reading your link and found this, which is what I was talking about earlier in post #4. "Research findings for long-term marijuana abuse indicate some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term abuse of other major drugs. For example, cannabinoid (THC or synthetic forms of THC) withdrawal in chronically exposed animals leads to an increase in the activation of the stress-response system5 and changes in the activity of nerve cells containing dopamine6. Dopamine neurons are involved in the regulation of motivation and reward, and are directly or indirectly affected by all drugs of abuse." The specifics about schizophrenia are again found in this study: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinformation/mentalhealthproblems/alcoholanddrugs/cannabisandmentalhealth.aspx

 

"Regular use of the drug has appeared to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia."

 

I don't really have any direct research talking about dopamine stimulation from drug use and psychosis and but from what I've read in different sources (eg the two above) this does seem to be the case.

 

Just FYI further down from that quote, "Over the past few years, research has strongly suggested that there is a clear link between early cannabis use and later mental health problems in those with a genetic vulnerability - and that there is a particular issue with the use of cannabis by adolescents." -- this is exactly what I was talking about above in my Cécile Henquet et al study "Prospective cohort study of cannabis use, predisposition for psychosis, and psychotic symptoms in young people" (British Medical Journal). This does not deal with depression, though, only the schizo-type side-effects from smoking marijuana.Again this is because of the social effects of drug use, not the chemical effects of marijuana. Saying "their findings contradict your source" because "drugs can be detrimental to both physical and mental health" is a straw man. It can cause psychosis (*cough* be bad for mental health) on a chemical level, be bad for your body physically (eg smoking), and cause depression on a "social" level, but it does not cause depression on a chemical level.

 

What are you talking about? I never said that marijuana causes depression, or implied that it caused it chemically. What I originally said was:

 

Marijuana use can increase the risk of depression because of the adverse affects on social' date=' academic, and personal life.

[/quote']

 

to which I used some of my sources to back up. Everything else was a response to your claim that marijuana can treat depression and that meth caused depression.

 

BTW, you just agreed with my earlier statement.

 

Before you go off making criticisms, at least read the posts and sources correctly! I am not the one making Strawman here. Also, a lot of what you wrote does not address my point.

 

This is an argument from ignorance. Just because your article doesn't claim anti-depressant properties does not mean that they don't exist.

 

 

No' date=' not exactly. My comment was based on my knowledge of how depression is treated. Along with medicines that stimulate Serotonin, there are also psychotherapies that are used to treat it as well. Marijuana on the other hand introduces THC into the brain which stimulates areas that aren't necessarily related to depressive symptoms. There is direct evidence that abnormal Serotonin levels in the brain help cause depression (Though its exact role has yet to be revealed in later studies and experiments), you would have caught that if you paid attention to post 10.

 

One the contrary I clearly provided a source claiming that they do.This is all ad-hominem. There are actually multiple other journal articles that make the same claims anyway.

 

http://www.medicalmarijuanaprocon.org/bin/procon/procon.cgi?database=5-D-Subs-7.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=11&rnd=280.58184875715443

 

I'm criticizing your source because the argument isn't solid and the facts aren't straight. For example, one of them said: "a number of sufferers were discovered who believed marijuana to be more effective than conventional anti-manic drugs, or who used it to relieve the side effects of lithium". That report is sketchy because it is relying on anecdotal reports and is quite ambiguous. They don't offer any real data, unlike [some] of the guys on the so-called "pro" side. This site, by the way, is not a medical journal. What this site is is a debate between whether or not marijuana should be used as any form of treatment, psychological or otherwise.

 

Beliefs and anecdotes are not evidence.

 

If you read down the list you'll find a motif: the pro "marijuana does cause depression" is from the social effects of drug use and the con focuses more on the chemical effects of cannabis. I'm not claiming that if you smoke marijuana you will treat depression. On the contrary I have clearly posted above that the opposite is actually the case. There is however substantial evidence that marijuana contains anti-depressant properties.

 

Again, read the above. And also, you did make that claim, over here:

 

Marijuana may actually treat depression; it has been considered for medical purposes' date=' although in most of the world this is illegal.....

 

Meth causes depression. Marijuana actually cures it.

[/quote']

 

I have no problem if you believe that marijuana should be considered as a possible anti-depressant. But I am going to ask you to keep your facts straight and not misinterpret my posts. This is not a political debate forum.

[MolotovCocktail]

Well this is more what I was talking about. Meth is very bad for you brain (lol in case you didn't know) -- it really ****s you up. Not necessarily the meth itself but all of the other chemicals that come along with it. Most meth adics use a coffee filter when producing the drug but this doesn't remove any chemical substances that are bad for you.

 

Meth over time alters the way your body produces and reacts to dopamine, specifically dopamine doesn't "work" as well as it should. Activities that users once found enjoyable are no longer enjoyable. What's interesting here is that while on meth the user again finds these activities enjoyable. It gets to a point where you have to have meth in order to enjoy anything and NOT be depressed, and this includes even sex. Sex becomes so unpleasurable that after long-term use it's impossible to have sex while not on the drug.

 

No, meth most definitely causes depression, on a chemical level, and I don't think there should be any discrepancy here. Depression is actually one of the main side-effects of meth -- after a while nothing tastes good, nothing feels good -- nothing is enjoyable period unless you're on meth. At this point meth doesn't even cause the user to really be high like before, they just need to have it on a chemical level to function, period, in daily life, and while they're not on meth they become extremely depressed. Meth in other words becomes the "cure" to the negative side-effects that it causes.

 

Just because Meth causes the user to lose interest in activities they once enjoyed does not mean that it causes depression. This is a correlation=causation fallacy. Also, there is far more to depression than merely losing interest. This is the official list for the symptoms of depression:

"Depression

 

• Persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" mood
  
• Feelings of hopelessness, pessimism
  
• Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, helplessness
  
• Loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities that were once enjoyed, including sex
  
• Decreased energy, fatigue, being "slowed down"
  
• Difficulty concentrating, remembering, making decisions
  
• Insomnia, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
  
• Appetite and/or weight loss or overeating and weight gain
  
• Thoughts of death or suicide; suicide attempts
  
• Restlessness, irritability
  
• Persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment, such as headaches, digestive disorders, and chronic pain

Very often, a combination of genetic, psychological, and environmental factors is involved in the onset of a depressive disorder. Later episodes of illness typically are precipitated by only mild stresses, or none at all."

 

source: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm

 

meth causes the user to develop a strong addiction until it is the only thing that occupies their mind, as you said, but there are a lot of other factors at work (usually social) that will actually cause the depression. This is why I said that it increases the risk of it. Also, some people who are really stressed or are feeling hopeless will do drugs because of the high it gives them, but since this is temporary depression occurs anyway.

[MolotovCocktail]

Oh, and one more thing. I have every reason to believe that this Ethan Russo is a total quack. For example, the only reference to his "Cannabis Health 2002 Vol1" anywhere can only be found on that site you put up. Here is the list of his books that he wrote on the subject: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Ethan+Russo&z=y&cds2Pid=9481

 

Some of the titles on there do merit skepticism, because they sound a lot more like they are pushing an agenda rather than focusing on the science.

[1veedo]

What are you talking about? I never said that marijuana causes depression, or implied that it caused it chemically. What I originally said was:

I was just alluding back to earlier posts because two of the links you posted ironically supported my point about typical sideeffects from drug use associated with dopamine receptor activity. My entire post wasn't meant to be a response only to you.

to which I used some of my sources to back up. Everything else was a response to your claim that marijuana can treat depression and that meth caused depression.

 

BTW, you just agreed with my earlier statement.

Well yes had you understood more clearly my posts from earlier maybe you wouldn't have missunderstood what I was saying. I clearly bolded this point a couple times, actually.

 

Marijuana appears to contain anti-depressant properties on a chemical level. Drug use however increase depression so it's not like smoking marijuana, in most people, will cure depression.

I'm criticizing your source because the argument isn't solid and the facts aren't straight. For example, one of them said: "a number of sufferers were discovered who believed marijuana to be more effective than conventional anti-manic drugs, or who used it to relieve the side effects of lithium". That report is sketchy because it is relying on anecdotal reports and is quite ambiguous. They don't offer any real data, unlike [some] of the guys on the so-called "pro" side. This site, by the way, is not a medical journal. What this site is is a debate between whether or not marijuana should be used as any form of treatment, psychological or otherwise.

 

Beliefs and anecdotes are not evidence.

They did surveys and the studies clearly point out that firsthand accounts aren't the best way to be making conclusions.

 

"Using marijuana to treat mood disorders can be very tricky. Since active mood disorders often warp one's observational skills, reports by patients about marijuana lifting them out of depression are inherently unreliable."

 

There's more to the studies then just the quotes listed. I'm just pointing out that it's not "one crazy guy" making this claim. There's actually a lot of evidence that cannabis (read: not necessarily marijuana) can be tolerated better then conventional medicine. There are other compounds besides THC that attach to the CB1/CB2 receptors. There are also many more compounds in marijuana that do not attach to these receptors (they do other things in the body). delta-9 THC (read again: not delta-8) by itself doesn't cause the user to be high. It actually alters serotonin levels in a way that

 

1) Makes the user more hungry

2) Treats nausia

 

THC is prescribed as merinol to treat just this 1) aids patients 2) cancer patients.

 

http://www.marinol.com/aboutmarinol/index.html

 

Other chemicals that attach to the same receptors as THC do just the same, eg the same compounds in the supplement "black hole."

meth causes the user to develop a strong addiction until it is the only thing that occupies their mind, as you said, but there are a lot of other factors at work (usually social) that will actually cause the depression. This is why I said that it increases the risk of it. Also, some people who are really stressed or are feeling hopeless will do drugs because of the high it gives them, but since this is temporary depression occurs anyway.

Meth is really in a category all of its own. It causes much worse and a higher incidence of depression then just about any other drug. Like I was saying earlier it comes to a point that the only way a user is NOT depressed is when they're on the drug (over long-term use). I still don't see why you're trying to disagree with this statement because it's really common knowledge. I wasn't trying to imply that "lack of interest" was an indicator of depression, it's just one of the sideeffects. Btw all of those symptoms are associated with meth. Eg loss of weight and insomnia are caused by a disruption in natural serotonin cycles in the adic's brain (serotonin levels decrease with meth use). Serotonin regulates mood, hunger, sleep, and arousal -- it's in many respects the "clock" that most people live by. In the evening it turns into meletonin which is how it effects sleep cycles. It's precisely the disruption of serotonin levels because of meth use that causes a lot of the negative symptoms associated with meth.

 

"# Loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities that were once enjoyed, including sex" Just an FYI on sex it isn't a lose of interest on sex, it's the complete inability to even have sex, unless of course the user is one meth.

 

http://www.kci.org/meth_info/faq_meth.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine

[MolotovCocktail]

I was just alluding back to earlier posts because two of the links you posted ironically supported my point about typical sideeffects from drug use associated with dopamine receptor activity. My entire post wasn't meant to be a response only to you.Well yes had you understood more clearly my posts from earlier maybe you wouldn't have missunderstood what I was saying. I clearly bolded this point a couple times' date=' actually.

[/quote']

 

I know that, but that wasn't what I was disagreeing with. This is why I said that it was off topic in this context. I was attacking your claim that marijuana can be an effective treatment for depression, and the fact that you appeared to misrepresent my counter-claims.

 

Marijuana appears to contain anti-depressant properties on a chemical level. Drug use however increase depression so it's not like smoking marijuana, in most people, will cure depression.They did surveys and the studies clearly point out that firsthand accounts aren't the best way to be making conclusions.

 

Depends on what you mean by "appears to contain anti-depressant properties". If you are referring to the high that people get by taking it, then yes it produces a temporary sensation of pleasure and joy. However, it does nothing to actually treat the symptoms in the long run.

 

"Using marijuana to treat mood disorders can be very tricky. Since active mood disorders often warp one's observational skills' date=' reports by patients about marijuana lifting them out of depression are inherently unreliable."

[/quote']

 

So you do understand why I said this source was sketchy. Good!

 

There's more to the studies then just the quotes listed. I'm just pointing out that it's not "one crazy guy" making this claim. There's actually a lot of evidence that cannabis (read: not necessarily marijuana) can be tolerated better then conventional medicine. There are other compounds besides THC that attach to the CB1/CB2 receptors.

 

yes, and I know of this. It has been considered for use as a pain-killer and to help alleviate some of the side effects of chemotherapy, for example, and which I stated before. However, the link you provided did not talk about that, rather it was a debate over what role marijuana had on depression.

 

There are also many more compounds in marijuana that do not attach to these receptors (they do other things in the body). delta-9 THC (read aga: not delta-8) by itself doesn't cause the user to be high. It actually alters serotonin levels in a way that

 

1) Makes the user more hungry

2) Treats nausia

 

THC is prescribed as merinol to treat just this 1) aids patients 2) cancer patients.

 

http://www.marinol.com/aboutmarinol/index.html

 

Well, its important to note that serotonin plays a role for a large number of functions, not just behavior. The source I put shows that there is a link between abnormal serotonin levels and depression. What role this plays is not entirely known. But this is why conventional anti-depressants, such as Fluoxetine, focus on serotonin.

 

Other chemicals that attach to the same receptors as THC do just the same, eg the same compounds in the supplement "black hole."

 

this is true.

 

Meth is really in a category all of its own. It causes much worse and a higher incidence of depression then just about any other drug. Like I was saying earlier it comes to a point that the only way a user is NOT depressed is when they're on the drug (over long-term use). I still don't see why you're trying to disagree with this statement because it's really common knowledge. I wasn't trying to imply that "lack of interest" was an indicator of depression, it's just one of the sideeffects. Btw all of those symptoms are associated with meth. Eg loss of weight and insomnia are caused by a disruption in natural serotonin cycles in the adic's brain (serotonin levels decrease with meth use). Serotonin regulates mood, hunger, sleep, and arousal -- it's in many respects the "clock" that most people live by. In the evening it turns into meletonin which is how it effects sleep cycles. It's precisely the disruption of serotonin levels because of meth use that causes a lot of the negative symptoms associated with meth.

 

"# Loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities that were once enjoyed, including sex" Just an FYI on sex it isn't a lose of interest on sex, it's the complete inability to even have sex, unless of course the user is one meth.

 

http://www.kci.org/meth_info/faq_meth.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine

 

Yes, depression will occur when the body is trying to withdraw from the drug as it develops a physical addiction to it. Your source indicates that long term use will induce symptoms similar to schizophrenia, which can easily lead to depression. Of course, long term use will really screw up the brain chemistry and make the person highly suspectible to depression. While meth creates a chemical imbalance, it is not its sole, single, cause. Sorry if I misunderstood you but that was what I thought you were implying. Of course you know that there are other things that cause depression than just drugs.

 

I hope we have an understanding here, I was attacking the claim that marijuana could be used as a treatment, and you went as far as claiming it could cure, depression. Marijuana has the same long term effect on the brain chemistry and makes the person much more prone to fall into depression. Of course, depression itself could be triggered by some stressful event, loss of a loved one, etc.

 

What I was getting at was that depression involves both brain chemistry and emotional or psychological issues/distress, the latter of which could be caused by any number of factors.

[1veedo]

Depends on what you mean by "appears to contain anti-depressant properties". If you are referring to the high that people get by taking it, then yes it produces a temporary sensation of pleasure and joy. However, it does nothing to actually treat the symptoms in the long run.

Well here I think is the main flaw in reasoning. Marijuana does more then just increase dopamine levels. All drugs do more then just this, and most of the time these side-effects are mostly negative. Marijuana of course has several noticeable beneficial side-effects, including the ability to treat cancer as feedochain posted above (which is the same reason it cures headaches; it's antiinflamatory).

 

I think it's irnoic that I ran across this study but I was doing research in 5htp supplementation and ran across this article, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=12079687 , "Delta(9)-Tetrahydrocannabinol (6 mg/kg, i.p.), which impairs spatial memory, significantly increased the 5-HT content in the ventral hippocampus." (ie THC increases serotonin levels)

 

So as you can see there's a lot more to it then just dopamine. Merinol (dronabinol/THC) specifically increase serotonin levels according to a second study,

 

"Tolerability of dronabinol alone, ondansetron alone and the combination of dronabinol plus ondansetron in delayed chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting.

 

This study compared the tolerability of dronabinol versus ondansetron in subjects with delayed CINV. Subjects received moderately to highly emetogenic chemotherapy and were treated with dexamethasone/ondansetron prior to chemo-therapy. Subjects who were randomized to receive dronabinol, ondansetron, or dronabinol plus ondansetron also received dronabinol pre- and post chemotherapy. Researchers concluded that dronabinol was well tolerated, with a low rate of central nervous system related adverse events, which may make it a suitable alternative to serotonin antagonist therapy for delayed CINV (Jhangiani et al., 2005).

Link to the ASCO abstract:

http://www.asco.org/ac/1,1003,_12-002636-00_18-0034-00_19-0031146,00.asp"*

yes, and I know of this. It has been considered for use as a pain-killer and to help alleviate some of the side effects of chemotherapy, for example, and which I stated before. However, the link you provided did not talk about that, rather it was a debate over what role marijuana had on depression.

Which had more then just one source claiming marijuana can help treat depression.

I hope we have an understanding here, I was attacking the claim that marijuana could be used as a treatment, and you went as far as claiming it could cure, depression.

It could cure depression under the assumption that certain chemicals are extracted and prescribed. It could be used as a treatment in the medical community is what I'm talking about, not that if you're depressed you could buy some weed right now and it'd cure the depression for you.

 

Again, we must segregate between chemical properties of a drug and other effects typical of drug use.

 

Marijuana most definitely increases your risk of depression. It also, however, contains anti-depressant properties on a chemical level. The distinction is important.

[Realitycheck]

Don't the finest psychologists of Amsterdam have documentation that marijuana use causes schizophrenia?

[1veedo]

Don't the finest psychologists of Amsterdam have documentation that marijuana use causes schizophrenia?

Yes those damned Amsterdam psychologists how could of I forgotten about them? Best psychologists anywhere on the planet is what I hear, but it could be just a rumor.

 

British psychologists also have documentation that marijuana use causes schizophrenia. "Prospective cohort study of cannabis use, predisposition for psychosis, and psychotic symptoms in young people" published in 2004 in the British Medical Journal.

 

There's just no getting around this I dont guess.