whale killers right-wrong

[fattyjwoods]

i was sifting threough my letterbox today and i found a greenpeace (human rights/animal rights group) ad and magazine about (u mightve seen this on the news) the Japanese so-called "scientific reasearch on whales" and in fact most of the "scientific reasearch on whales" end up on peoples dinner plates. this practice is illegal but the jabs still do it. I personally think as a SPCA (society for the prevention of creulty to animals) volunteer that what the jabs are doing is extremeely wrong and disgusting.

[Sayonara]

As much as I share your position on this, I have to ask you not to refer to Japanese people as "the jabs".

[ecoli]

what research, specifically, are they doing?

[SkepticLance]

Japanese 'research' on whales is, and always has been, a mere token. When asked about the research papers on whales published in peer reviewed journals as a result of such research, the Japanese authorities are embarassed. As stated, whaling is not for research, but food.

 

Even worse, it is no longer really for food. There is a 'whale meat mountain' in frozen storage in Japan, as they cannot sell all they have. Whaling now appears to be about national pride. In other words, the Japanese government, which now owns the whaling fleet, continue the practise only because other nations are telling them not to!

 

Greepeace is not blameless in this, and appear to be one of the main drivers keeping the whaling going. Again, national pride, and a refusal to do what Greenpeace tell them. In this, Greenpeace is especially guilty because they choose tactics that are provocative and aggressive. Greenpeace is one of the main reasons the Japanese still kill whales.

 

The real way to approach this is to dump the provocative tactics. Stop confronting Japanese whaling ships on the high seas - actions which occasionally verge on piracy - and work on the hearts and minds of the Japanese people. Most of the people in Japan have little knowledge of what is happening, and care less. Japan is a very insular society, and is not a part of the world wide web, due to the fact that few Japanese use English. Instead they use Japnet. This keeps them ignorant of wider issues. That does not stop them from caring about whales. What is needed is a campaign based in Japan, run by Japanese, to win over the Japanese people. Until that happens, the Japanese government will simply dig in its toes and refuse to stop killing whales.

[fattyjwoods]

yea i heard about the bit when one of the japanese whaling ships rammed one of the Greenpeace ships

[SkepticLance]

Actually, it depends on who you talk to.

The Japanese claim Greenpeace rammed them. Greenpeace claims Japan did the ramming. The only video available of the incident was taken by Japanese people, and possibly edited. Surprise, surprise - it shows Greenpeace doing the ramming.

 

There is no way to know who was at fault, and neither party can be trusted to tell the truth. However, I have no sympathy for Greenpeace, who should not have been there in the first place, and who are just prolonging the whale slaughter by not allowing Japan to back out with pride.

 

I have no sympathy for the Japanese whalers, either. However, I just wish people involved on both sides would leave their gonads out of the argument.

[John Cuthber]

While it may be fair to say that "Greepeace is not blameless in this, and appear to be one of the main drivers keeping the whaling going. Again, national pride, and a refusal to do what Greenpeace tell them. In this, Greenpeace is especially guilty because they choose tactics that are provocative and aggressive. Greenpeace is one of the main reasons the Japanese still kill whales." you really ought to remember that without greenpeace's involvement there would be many more countries whaling and the whales would be worse off.

If greenpeace decided to give up on whaling and concentrate it's efforts elsewhere do you really think Japan would stop killing whales?

Incidentally, if we are going to take any country to task over their dealings with Greenpeace, shouldn't it be France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

One dead man seems more important to me than quite a lot of dead whales.

[lucaspa]

i was sifting threough my letterbox today and i found a greenpeace (human rights/animal rights group) ad and magazine about (u mightve seen this on the news) the Japanese so-called "scientific reasearch on whales" and in fact most of the "scientific reasearch on whales" end up on peoples dinner plates. ... I personally think as a SPCA (society for the prevention of creulty to animals) volunteer that what the jabs are doing is extremeely wrong and disgusting.

 

OK, but WHY is it wrong? Look at the ethics more carefully.

 

1. There is the deception that whaling is scientific research but is really for hunting. That is lying and is immmoral within human society.

 

2. As Sayonara posted, the whaling isn't for food anymore.

a. Whale meat isn't necessary for meat in the Japanese diet (it is, you'll note, in Inuit diet).

b. The Japanese don't even eat the whale meat they already have, much less the new meat being harvested. Therefore the moral justification of killing whales -- for food -- is invalid.

c. There are no other essential products to be gained from whales. All other products that were once obtained by whales are more economically obtained -- and are better products -- by other means.

 

So this is wrong WITHIN human morals without involving anything like "animal rights".

[lucaspa]

While it may be fair to say that "Greepeace is not blameless in this, and appear to be one of the main drivers keeping the whaling going. Again, national pride, and a refusal to do what Greenpeace tell them. In this, Greenpeace is especially guilty because they choose tactics that are provocative and aggressive. Greenpeace is one of the main reasons the Japanese still kill whales." you really ought to remember that without greenpeace's involvement there would be many more countries whaling and the whales would be worse off.

 

Greenpeace originally did good work in stopping whaling. However, the point is that Greenpeace has failed to take into account Japanese psychology. To the Japanese, saving face is very important. Greenpeace isn't letting the Japanese do that.

 

So it is a legitimate point to question whether Greenpeace here is really concerned about the whales or concerned about appearing to be the "winner" in a confrontation with Japan? IOW, has Greenpeace sacrificed the whales to their own human pride?

 

If greenpeace decided to give up on whaling and concentrate it's efforts elsewhere do you really think Japan would stop killing whales?

 

Yes. If Greenpeace would back off, the economics of the situation -- outlined by Sayonara-- would stop the whaling within 5 years. And some time is going to be needed for the whalers to find new careers. This slowdown, which the Japanese could submit was their idea, would accomplish the goal. Of course, Greenpeace wouldn't get the credit.

 

Incidentally, if we are going to take any country to task over their dealings with Greenpeace, shouldn't it be France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

One dead man seems more important to me than quite a lot of dead whales.

 

"Fernando Pereira, a photographer, drowned on the sinking ship while attempting to save his equipment."

 

If Pereira would have abandoned his things, he wouldn't have drowned. It sounds like the DGSE tried to accomplish their mission without loss of life. They can't be held totally responsible because Pereira decided to go for a Darwin Award.

 

You are concerned about the life of ONE man. "In the 1980s, the direction of military applications of the Commissariat à l'Énergie Atomique was developing new nuclear warheads for the new M4 SLBM, which were tested in underground explosions in the French Polynesian atoll of Moruroa."

 

France was concerned about the lives of tens of millions and having a credible nuclear deterrent. I'd say Greenpeace should have been more concerned with saving human lives that protesting a very minor contamination of the environment.

[Sayonara]

It was SkepticLance who detailed how the Japanese use the whales, not me.

[fattyjwoods]

OK, but WHY is it wrong? Look at the ethics more carefully.

 

1. There is the deception that whaling is scientific research but is really for hunting. That is lying and is immmoral within human society.

 

2. As Sayonara posted, the whaling isn't for food anymore.

a. Whale meat isn't necessary for meat in the Japanese diet (it is, you'll note, in Inuit diet).

b. The Japanese don't even eat the whale meat they already have, much less the new meat being harvested. Therefore the moral justification of killing whales -- for food -- is invalid.

c. There are no other essential products to be gained from whales. All other products that were once obtained by whales are more economically obtained -- and are better products -- by other means.

 

So this is wrong WITHIN human morals without involving anything like "animal rights".

 

Then what are the japanese killing the whalies for? aimless slaughtering?

 

Greenpeace originally did good work in stopping whaling. However, the point is that Greenpeace has failed to take into account Japanese psychology. To the Japanese, saving face is very important. Greenpeace isn't letting the Japanese do that.

 

So it is a legitimate point to question whether Greenpeace here is really concerned about the whales or concerned about appearing to be the "winner" in a confrontation with Japan? IOW, has Greenpeace sacrificed the whales to their own human pride?

 

 

 

Yes. If Greenpeace would back off, the economics of the situation -- outlined by Sayonara-- would stop the whaling within 5 years. And some time is going to be needed for the whalers to find new careers. This slowdown, which the Japanese could submit was their idea, would accomplish the goal. Of course, Greenpeace wouldn't get the credit.

 

 

 

"Fernando Pereira, a photographer, drowned on the sinking ship while attempting to save his equipment."

 

If Pereira would have abandoned his things, he wouldn't have drowned. It sounds like the DGSE tried to accomplish their mission without loss of life. They can't be held totally responsible because Pereira decided to go for a Darwin Award.

 

You are concerned about the life of ONE man. "In the 1980s, the direction of military applications of the Commissariat à l'Énergie Atomique was developing new nuclear warheads for the new M4 SLBM, which were tested in underground explosions in the French Polynesian atoll of Moruroa."

 

France was concerned about the lives of tens of millions and having a credible nuclear deterrent. I'd say Greenpeace should have been more concerned with saving human lives that protesting a very minor contamination of the environment.

 

I don't think the japanese will stop the whaling at all just take a look at this site http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/save-our-seas-2/save-the-whales/japanese-whaling

 

http://images.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&q=Japanese%20Whaling%20whale%20meat&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

thay are actually selling the meat in restarunts. They aren't gonna stop. Nothing's gonna stop them

 

Anyway why would greenpeace want to ram them? anyway there for peaceful resoultions

[SkepticLance]

To fattyjwoods

 

Some information you may not know.

 

Several years ago, the Japanese whaling industry was in the hands of private enterprise. They discovered they were losing money. They offered to sell out to the Japanese government, who bought them out. The Japanese government is now running the whaling, and still losing money.

 

Japan has all the meat it needs, since they have a cash surplus, and there are plenty of meat producing nations happy to sell their meat for less than the cost of whale meat.

 

Consumption of whale meat in Japan has been going down for some years, and the total of whale meat produced by the whaling fleet cannot all be sold. This leads to an increasig mountain of frozen whale meat.

 

Yet the Japanese government continues to kill whales, at a substantial financial loss. There was an article in the New Zealand Herald a while back, written by a Japanese man, on this subject. He ascribed the whole damn thing to Japanese pride. They refuse to do what outsiders tell them. Left alone, the normal rules of economics would end the entire whaling effort. With greenpeace and others trying to force them to stop, they refuse to stop.

 

My own personal theory is that the leadership of Greenpeace, who are extremely clever and well educated people, are well aware of this. However, their approach, with 'cannon fodder' volunteers carrying out heroic deeds of derring do in the southern ocean, brings heaps of publicity, heaps of new members, and lots of new money.

 

Money brings power, and the leadership of Greenpeace are the only winners.

[Mudnox]

So, even if Greenpeace did leave the whaling ships alone, what would make the Japanese government stop whaling.

If they stopped whaling withing say 10 years, it would still look like they were backing down, after all Japan is rich, even if they were loosing money they can keep on going. THEY don't care about whales, for all they care they can be hunted to extinction and "STUFF the west with their strange ideas about animal rights and the environment"

[SkepticLance]

To Mudnox

 

As I stated in an earlier post, the only tactic that is likely to work on the Japanese government to induce them to stop whaling is to work within Japan, and win over the hearts and minds of the Japanese people. Greenpeace is active inside Japan, though it is not very powerful in that country. There is nothing to stop them from running a campaign of education to tell the Japanese people about whaling and why it should be stopped. The power of the voter will then persuade the Japanese government where less subtle tactics fail.

 

Of course, such a campaign will win Greenpeace less publicity than high seas confrontations. Thus we see their true motives.

[fattyjwoods]

so are you just sayoing it's pride? well if it is pride, they the japanes goverment should really get a life. not trying to offend anyone but this is a really big waste of whales. soon all whales will be extict-then lets see where thier "pride" goes.

[SkepticLance]

To fattyjwoods

 

I am not sure we can call it 'just pride'. I am not Japanese and cannot with accuracy look into the Japanese mind. For that matter, it is not all the Japanese. Just the government. What their culture dictates is obviously not what you or or would follow. However, it is clear that Greenpeace's tactics to date have just served to harden their views.

 

There is a definition of insanity :

" Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time."

 

And Greenpeace keep confronting the Japanese whaling fleet in the southern ocean over and over again, and somehow expecting the Japanese to respond differently. That meets the insanity definition pretty damn well!

[fattyjwoods]

How about the time when the japanese ship Nissan maru broke down or something. greenpeace offered a tow and the japanese rejected it. that was an example of pride wasn't it?

 

but if Greenpeace just lets the Japanese whale, wont that give greenpeace a bad reputtatrion?

[SkepticLance]

To fattyjwoods

 

Let me say it again.

 

If Greenpeace are truly sincere in their attempt to stop the Japanese government from killing whales, they will be prepared to try something new. That is, to win over the Japanese people.

 

Southern ocean deeds of mock heroism do not do it. If they haven't learned that by now, there is no hope for them.

 

Use the political process, and work on the Japanese people and their votes. At least that is a new tactic, whcih means it might work. The old tactics have been proven to fail.

[lucaspa]

Then what are the japanese killing the whalies for? aimless slaughtering?

 

Just because you can make a moral argument against something doesn't mean the people involved will agree with you. The entire world thought the Holocaust was wrong, but the Nazi leadership didn't agree.

 

I don't think the japanese will stop the whaling at all just take a look at this site http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/save-our-seas-2/save-the-whales/japanese-whaling

 

Greenpeace isn't to be trusted here. As you noted in a later post: "but if Greenpeace just lets the Japanese whale, wont that give greenpeace a bad reputtatrion?"

 

Greenpeace also has pride and is worried about its reputation. So of course they are going to say that the Japanese won't stop on their own.

 

thay are actually selling the meat in restarunts.

 

but they aren't selling enough to even break even, much less make a profit! Very soon, without the pride motive, the Japanese government is going to find it impossible to justify spending taxpayer money to keep the whaling going.

 

Nothing's gonna stop them

 

C'mon, do a bit of thinking here. If the whales go extinct, THAT will stop them. But yes, economics will also stop them. IF you take the pride and confrontation out of the equation so that economics will dominate.

 

Anyway why would greenpeace want to ram them?

 

Pride. Publicity. Making it look like it was the fault of the Japanese. It's the same situation when Hitler faked a Polish attack on Germany in 1939. It provided a rationalization.

[lucaspa]

so are you just sayoing it's pride? well if it is pride, they the japanes goverment should really get a life. not trying to offend anyone but this is a really big waste of whales. soon all whales will be extict-then lets see where thier "pride" goes.

 

I am using "pride" as shorthand. The emotion is much more complicated than simple pride. It's a cultural thing that is sometimes called "saving face". It is tied into ego, reputation, and the self-worth of the individual. You can see the same thing in Greenpeace. The paid members of Greenpeace have tied their sense of self-worth to "winning" their environmental goals and getting credit for winning them. That last is -- getting credit -- is very important. It's about winning and losing. The Japanese don't want to be seen as "losing" and "giving in" to Greenpeace. As you noted, Greenpeace really wants to get the credit and be seen as "forcing" the Japanese to their will: "but if Greenpeace just lets the Japanese whale, wont that give greenpeace a bad reputtatrion?"

 

 

So, the Japanese don't want a "bad reputation" and neither does Greenpeace. It's no longer about the whales, but about the egos and reputations of both people. Since Greenpeace says it is about the whales, then they should be the ones to put their egos and reputation on hold to accomplish the mission.

[lucaspa]

So, even if Greenpeace did leave the whaling ships alone, what would make the Japanese government stop whaling.

If they stopped whaling withing say 10 years, it would still look like they were backing down, after all Japan is rich, even if they were loosing money they can keep on going. THEY don't care about whales, for all they care they can be hunted to extinction and "STUFF the west with their strange ideas about animal rights and the environment"

 

No, if the pressure were off then the Japanese could say 1) that the market for whale meat had collapsed, 2) admit that whaling was not profitable, or 3) say that due to government financial restraints unrelated to whaling, the government had to stop the subsidies, 4) eventually say that it was their idea to save the whales. Lots of ways here the Japanese government could stop and save face.

 

Japan has been having economic problems. And ANY government likes to be seen as controlling wasteful spending. I'm also sure there are many Japanese politicians with their favorite projects that would be more than happy to see the tax money spent on subsidizing whaling to to their pet projects instead.

 

The present tactics aren't working. Time to remember the mission and try something new.

 

I think SkepticLance has come up with a good description of the motivation of Greenpeace. They are into "reputation" and "face" just as much, if not more, than the Japanese. BUT, their mission is supposed to be saving the whales. I can, and do, seriously fault them for sacrificing the mission to their own pride.

[someguy]

as long as there is money to be made by killing whales whales will be killed. The problem with whales is that you can't really farm them them i don't think, they're just too huge. maybe one day it would make economic sense, but the only way to stop the whaling is to make it unprofitable to whale. like everything else in our world. so long as profit can be made from it it will happen, as much as humans demand it and can afford it. The thing also about whales is that whales don't live in japanese waters or american waters or indian waters or whatever, they live all over the place, they swim from one ocean to the next, so what you need is a world government imposing restrictions and looking at the whaling industry from a world perspective, more and more the world is requiring an actual world government that actually governs the world,

[bascule]

So very... very wrong.

 

What the hell. I can understand killing certain mammals. Like mice... killed in the context of biomedical research... to cure disease.

 

Who the hell can condone killing whales? Especially to EAT?

 

Whales are among the smartest creatures on the planet. Dolphins either match or exceed the mental abilities of chimpanzees. In my opinion killing a whale is just as bad as killing a human being.

[abskebabs]

So very... very wrong.

 

What the hell. I can understand killing certain mammals. Like mice... killed in the context of biomedical research... to cure disease.

 

Who the hell can condone killing whales? Especially to EAT?

 

Whales are among the smartest creatures on the planet. Dolphins either match or exceed the mental abilities of chimpanzees. In my opinion killing a whale is just as bad as killing a human being.

I can understand your feelings, but I find the sentiments a little naive. If you're talking about smartness, then we already know that pigs are fairly smart animals but we don't really have qualms about killing and eating them, unless for cultural or religious reasons.

 

Also, as long as the Japanese do not wipe out the population of whales living off their seas, and do not overfish them, allowing their population to be maintained is it really a problem? Besides, wouldn't this be in their commercial interests anyway?

[fattyjwoods]

So very... very wrong.

 

What the hell. I can understand killing certain mammals. Like mice... killed in the context of biomedical research... to cure disease.

 

Who the hell can condone killing whales? Especially to EAT?

 

Whales are among the smartest creatures on the planet. Dolphins either match or exceed the mental abilities of chimpanzees. In my opinion killing a whale is just as bad as killing a human being.

 

Exactly, thanks for your opinion. I 10000000% agree with you, and i also think they are kind of "cukoo" in the head. eating a whale is a bit like eating another guy down the road

 

 

 

 

No, if the pressure were off then the Japanese could say 1) that the market for whale meat had collapsed, 2) admit that whaling was not profitable, or 3) say that due to government financial restraints unrelated to whaling, the government had to stop the subsidies, 4) eventually say that it was their idea to save the whales. Lots of ways here the Japanese government could stop and save face.

 

bull**** (sorry for my language) if the greenpeace eased pressure off the japanese they'll probably hunt them hunt the whales to extinction.

 

Japan has been having economic problems. And ANY government likes to be seen as controlling wasteful spending. I'm also sure there are many Japanese politicians with their favorite projects that would be more than happy to see the tax money spent on subsidizing whaling to to their pet projects instead.

 

The present tactics aren't working. Time to remember the mission and try something new.

 

I think SkepticLance has come up with a good description of the motivation of Greenpeace. They are into "reputation" and "face" just as much, if not more, than the Japanese. BUT, their mission is supposed to be saving the whales. I can, and do, seriously fault them for sacrificing the mission to their own pride.

 

I honestly dont think that when greenpeace is trying to save whales it is for their pride. Greenpeace is basically trying to help the whales from becoming extinct

 

I can understand your feelings, but I find the sentiments a little naive. If you're talking about smartness, then we already know that pigs are fairly smart animals but we don't really have qualms about killing and eating them, unless for cultural or religious reasons.

 

Also, as long as the Japanese do not wipe out the population of whales living off their seas, and do not overfish them, allowing their population to be maintained is it really a problem? Besides, wouldn't this be in their commercial interests anyway?

 

problem is, my friend. they are going, sooner or later put a big EXTINCT sign beside the picture of the whale. if they keep there yearly hunts up my geuss is the whales will be gone by 2060, that is hunting the same amount of whales every year. the japanese hunt around 1000 whales a year and they are planning to hunt more

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Japan_2