whale killers right-wrong

[Hammer8]

,and also what tatics do you guys think will stop the whaling.

 

Exactly the same tactics that work everywhere else. Encourage people to see how special the whales are, let them see the money that can be made from whale watching tourism. Economics and sentiment then lead to an end to whaling.

 

,As it have been proven harassing the ships arent helping..

 

Not just not helping, those tactics activity incite more whaling.

 

But it has been proven in years ago that leaving the japanese goverment alone isnt goning to stop them either (just look at the japanese whaling before greenpeace intervened.) If they would just stop because of pride they would have done so before anybody tried to make them stop

 

 

You are so wrong it is hard to know where to start putting you right.

 

In the 1970's the Japanese were prepared to completely phase out whaling.

 

Then, anti whaling protesters from the 'West' decided that insulting the Japanese, and in particular physically attacking Japanese delegates to the International Whaling organisation was a good idea.

 

Getting good publicity for their anti whaling groups with these stunts.

 

The result? The Japanese decide that if they stop whaling it will look like they are giving in the pressure from self righteous foriegn idiots with no repsect for Japan. So they continue whaling.

 

Do you get the message? It's very, very simple.

 

People trying to feel good about themselves by stupid stunts and self righteous rants against the Japanese are the ones who are responsible for killing the whales.

 

And one last point, you have made several references to the Japanese hunting whales to extinction. This is also wrong. The species the Japanese hunt are not threatened with extinction. This is in fact not a problem. The Japanese will not whale a species to extinction, they are far to intelligent for that. It is a moral and NOT a conservation issue.

[fattyjwoods]

Exactly the same tactics that work everywhere else. Encourage people to see how special the whales are, let them see the money that can be made from whale watching tourism. Economics and sentiment then lead to an end to whaling.

 

yeah thats whats going on now. everyones involved. like the whale watching in kaikoura but can you see the japanese go whale watching?

[SkepticLance]

Actually ftw

 

The Japanese people are no different to people anywhere else in relation to this. Japanese coming to Kaikoura to watch the sperm whales are just as taken with their majesty as anyone else. They are prime candidates for opposing the whaling. The problem is that most of the Japanese poeple simply have no idea about the wonder of whales or about the damage their government is doing. We need to publicise both.

[Hammer8]

yeah thats whats going on now. everyones involved. like the whale watching in kaikoura but can you see the japanese go whale watching?

 

Yes i can.

 

Japanese culture has ingrained in it a very deep seated love and respect of nature.

 

The principles of Shinto are based on the idea of spirits enfusing nature and the wonder and celebration of the beauty and mystery of nature.

 

The Japanese are extremely careful protectors of their own natural environment and take great care and go to great lengths to preserve and care and protect their wildlife.

 

 

The Japanese are natural environmentalists of a very high order. It took some extraordinarily stupid efforts from arrogant western 'environmentalists' to effectively force the Japanese into the absurd position of being stuck whaling, when they never wanted to continue doing that anyway!

[fattyjwoods]

Yes i can.

 

Japanese culture has ingrained in it a very deep seated love and respect of nature.

 

The principles of Shinto are based on the idea of spirits enfusing nature and the wonder and celebration of the beauty and mystery of nature.

 

The Japanese are extremely careful protectors of their own natural environment and take great care and go to great lengths to preserve and care and protect their wildlife.

 

 

The Japanese are natural environmentalists of a very high order. It took some extraordinarily stupid efforts from arrogant western 'environmentalists' to effectively force the Japanese into the absurd position of being stuck whaling, when they never wanted to continue doing that anyway!

 

if they really had enough will power wouldnt they of stopped even if the western tried to stop them. i mean if they knew well and truly that what they are doing if going to make the whales extinct why didnt they stop anyway? eg if you were addicted to smoking and you were about to give it up (japan) and then some guy comes along (western-europe-greenpeace) and tells you to stop. Normally you would be encouraged to stop and you would happily do it.

 

like I said before they havent stoped yet

[pioneer]

One compromise is to have the whalers go retro. To whale one has to use hand help harpoons and small boats and tote it to shore the old fashion way. This type of whaling is dangerous and a lot of work and could help damper enthusiasm. It will also give the fast whale a fighting chance. At time Mooby Dick is able to even the score.

 

The whale watching tours teach whales to like boats and humans. This may be helping to make it much easier to hunt them. It is like feeding the bears or deer. Once people begin to do that, they lose their natural defensive fear. In the case of bears, they look for you to give them food. This plays into the hands of hunters, since the bears are now much easier to lure and add to the trophy case. This may help the whalers. All they have to do is dangle a camera, while hiding the harpoon behind them.

 

Not to long ago a whale mother and calf swim up a river. Many were concern and worked so hard to right the pair so they would go back to sea. It may be possible that they swam upriver to hide from preditors. It is also possible that everyone worked hard to put them back in harms way. Luckily, the mother flipped off the do gooders and waited until the coast was clear. She then snuck out to avoid those crazy humans.

[fattyjwoods]

uh huh, so youre saying whale watchings wrong?

[Lekgolo555]

If we can eat cows, then why not whales

[iNow]

If we can eat cows, then why not whales

 

Maybe because we raise cows for the express purpose of eating them, while whales are forced to procreate in the wild and with no assistance. Hence, we run out of whales unless some big Texas tycoons start setting up whale farms.

 

 

This blubber is pure Angus.

[fattyjwoods]

Because it dosent seem right. We raise cows and sheep to eat not for frolicking around. But whales arent for eating, anyway if the world started eating whales they would all be gone by Tommorow

[Lekgolo555]

Maybe because we raise cows for the express purpose of eating them, while whales are forced to procreate in the wild and with no assistance. Hence, we run out of whales unless some big Texas tycoons start setting up whale farms.

 

 

This blubber is pure Angus.

 

If we regulated the hunting would you still have a problem

[iNow]

If we regulated the hunting would you still have a problem

 

Actually, yes. I express a certain kindness toward animals in general, but love a good steak. Inexplicably, I have this inherent respect for the whale... like they're smart and deserve better. I know it's hypocritical, so hopefully I get some credit for conceding that, but I find the mammalian whale more worthy of protection than the delicious bovine.

 

 

A noble craft, but somehow a most melancholy! All noble things are touched with that.

[lucaspa]

if they really had enough will power wouldnt they of stopped even if the western tried to stop them. i mean if they knew well and truly that what they are doing if going to make the whales extinct why didnt they stop anyway?

 

You keep ignoring what people are saying: Japanese have a lot of pride. Their culture is such that they will not do something if it appears that they are being FORCED to do so. That's one reason why they started WWII. Their campaign in China was already in trouble, but the USA tried to use economic force (sanctions) to get them to stop. Then, by their internal culture, they could not give in.

 

Same thing here. Fattyjwoods, you haven't addressed the FACT I have posted: despite Greenpeace's activity, Japanese scientific whaling has increased 4x in the last 10 years. Greenpeace's confrontational tactics are not working; in fact they are making the situation worse.

 

If you care about the whales, then you advocate changing tactics. In this case, the change is to stop the confrontation. The economics of the situation will then have the Japanese stop whaling on their own. If they don't, the situation isn't any worse off than it is now and then it's time to try different tactics.

 

The main thing to remember: Greenpeace's tactics are making the situation worse, not better.

 

If we can eat cows, then why not whales

 

The logic here -- from Bascule -- is that whales are sapient -- like humans. Cows are not sapient. Using sapient animals as food is morally wrong. Remember, cannabilism is wrong.

 

Now, if you decide that whales are not sapient, then eating whales is not morally wrong.

 

Nutritionally, of course, we can eat whales. The Inuit have whale meat as a staple part of their diet. The difference is that the Inuit do not kill enough whales to threaten the population with extinction. Commercial whaling did drive many species to the brink of extinction and Japanese whaling still threatens many populations.

 

And yes, regulating hunting of whales can have an effect in reducing the risk of extinction. Remember that ANY species, including whales, can produce more offspring than the environment can support. Right now whales (due to previous hunting) are far below that level, but reproduction rates are such that they will get to that point in a couple of hundred years. Then you will see whales starving because there is not enough food for them all.

 

Hunting can be used as a means of keeping a population in check so that the point of starvation is never reached. It takes a lot of research to figure out the numbers to be hunted for each species in each location, but it can be done.

 

It appears that whale meat is not considered tasty outside of Japan and not even there anymore. People would rather eat bovine steak than whale steak. So you could probably issue licenses to a few whalers to hunt the small number of whales necessary to meet the market for whale meat. Economics would determine how many whalers that is.

[ParanoiA]

despite Greenpeace's activity, Japanese scientific whaling has increased 4x in the last 10 years. Greenpeace's confrontational tactics are not working; in fact they are making the situation worse.

 

But isn't that just a correllation, not a fact of causation? I agree with your point on Japanese pride, but are you really suggesting that they are increasing their hunting window or adding more hunters to the mix - just to oppose Greenpeace? That would be some crazy ass pride for sure.

[lucaspa]

But isn't that just a correllation, not a fact of causation? I agree with your point on Japanese pride, but are you really suggesting that they are increasing their hunting window or adding more hunters to the mix - just to oppose Greenpeace? That would be some crazy ass pride for sure.

 

It is a correlation, but another correlation we have is increasing outside presssure on the Japanese to stop whaling. We don't have another viable hypothesis for causation. So, when you have eliminated all but one hypothesis, that is the one you (provisionally) accept as true until new data contradicts it.

 

It doesn't look like they are adding more hunters, just that the ships are more active. It's just not economical for individual Japanese to get into the whaling business. What is happening is providing work -- and income -- for the whalers already in the business. Since the whalers can't do commercial whaling, then they do "scientific" whaling.

 

And yes, the Japaneses are known for "crazy ass pride". Their culture does not work the same as Western culture, despite the Westernization. Never in Western culture were people expected to commit ritual suicide upon failure, but they were for centuries in Japan. That type of "crazy ass pride" that demanded ritual suicide and thought it was acceptable is not part of the Western mindset.

[SkepticLance]

chemically whale meat is not much different to cow meat. However, there are two reasons not to kill whales.

 

1. Many species are scarce, and may go extinct. This does not, of course, apply to Minke Whales, which are the main target of Japanese whales.

 

2. Whales are highly intelligent. A Minke Whale probably has a degree of intelligence and consciousness equal to that of a young human child. Thus, morally, to kill a Minke Whale is directly equivalent to killing a young human child. That is called murder.

 

Intelligence is frequently shown by a high degree of curiosity. About 20 years ago, I was on an expedition to scuba dive a number of islands and reefs in the South Pacific. We encountered a Minke Whale inside the lagoon of South Minerva Reef. It swam around us for a full two hours - clearly fascinated by us humans who swam with it. One of our number had an electric underwater scooter, and carried out a series of swoops, dives, and ascent at speed. The whale followed him, imitating every swoop, dive, and ascent. Its behaviour was that of a very aware and very curious individual.

 

We left that encounter totally convinced of its intelligence.

[fattyjwoods]

Well, SkepticLance is right, but there are far more cows than whales and cows are not going to be extinct in the near future

[iNow]

Well, SkepticLance is right, but there are far more cows than whales and cows are not going to be extinct in the near future

 

Actually, cows would be completely extinct were it not for human intervention. You really think an animal like that naturally evolves and has the protection mechanisms to ward off predators?