Positive thought and Lifespan

[YT2095]

I`m sure some of you are aware how "negative thinking" can bring about illness (Psyho-somatic, I beleive it`s called), and these illnesses can often result in REAL physiological conditions.

hypochondriacs for instance sometimes get the disease they fear most as a direct result of their negative thinking and worry about it.

there are certain tribes that can actualy WILL themselves to die and they do within hours, purely by thought!

 

so I have 2 questions.

 

1) do you think the Opposite can be made to work, and in effect keep you illness free and thus extend your lifespan?

 

2) how long do you think you will live?

 

Input please

[Glider]

YT2095 said in post # :

I`m sure some of you are aware how "negative thinking" can bring about illness (Psyho-somatic, I beleive it`s called),

I'm not aware of it in those terms. I am aware of many stress related conditions though, and the finding that significant and protracted stress can make an individual more prone to certain infections (colds usually) through inhibiting their immune function.

 

 and these illnesses can often result in REAL physiological conditions.

 Aren't illnesses already REAL physiological conditions?

 

hypochondriacs for instance sometimes get the disease they fear most as a direct result of their negative thinking and worry about it.

I've never heard of that happening. To contract a particular and specific illness through negative thought? Unlikely.

 

there are certain tribes that can actualy WILL themselves to die and they do within hours, purely by thought!

   I have heard of 'Voodoo death' (as it's known), but victims take many days to die. Usually, this is because they believe they will die, have given up all hope and simply stop eating and drinking.

 

so I have 2 questions.

 

1) do you think the Opposite can be made to work, and in effect keep you illness free and thus extend your lifespan?

To a degree. A positive attitude has been shown to affect immunocompetence in a positive way. Nonetheless, there are illenesses capable of overcoming immune system defences (if there weren't, then no healthy person would never get ill). Whilst positive thought may increase your resistance, it is unlikely to make you 'bullet proof' and immune to all illnesses.

 

2) how long do you think you will live?

Not significantly longer than you would otherwise. Being free of illness and extending the lifespan are two different things. Assuming you don't die of some pathalogical process, then your lifespan will be more or less unaffected by whether or not you have had the flu a lot (for example).

 

Input please

[YT2095]

“ and these illnesses can often result in REAL physiological conditions. ”

 

were refering to the illnesses perceived mentaly, as in "I`ve got a bad headache "and they assume it`s brain tumor, when a scan says otherwise, and yet they beleive it IS and sometimes they will actualy get one!

 

 

the point basicly was that if people can think themselves INTO trouble, then maybe the reverse could apply, perhaps you convice yourself for a long time that you will only live to be 50, and when the age of 50 is upon you, you may experience symptoms (real or imagined, like Hypnosis).

could it be possible to beleive you`ll live to be 150 and almost make it?

 

interesting that you mention "Bullet proof" I`ve seen many realtime cases on video from my gun club about shootings, the motivated ones can receive lethal shots and still keep operating!?

and yet several cases of civilians that have been no where near fataly shot will instantly fall to ground and die as if being pushed over by the bullet like some hammy western movie!?

 

as for Voodoo death, I`m aware of that, and wasn`t refering to that, it was a tribe of Bush people (aboriginal IIRC) that can do that. don`t ask for sources, I have non it was ages ago on a docu channel that I saw this.

 

 

[Glider]

YT2095 said in post # :

“ and these illnesses can often result in REAL physiological conditions. ”

 

were refering to the illnesses perceived mentaly, as in "I`ve got a bad headache "and they assume it`s brain tumor, when a scan says otherwise, and yet they beleive it IS and sometimes they will actualy get one!

 

It doesn't happen outside of coincidence (chance). The problem is that where the original premise is flawed, or at least unsupported, questions based upon it have no meaning.

 

the point basicly was that if people can think themselves INTO trouble,

 

This is where the flaw lies. There is no support for the the contention that people can think themselves into trouble.

 

  

 then maybe the reverse could apply, perhaps you convice yourself for a long time that you will only live to be 50, and when the age of 50 is upon you, you may experience symptoms (real or imagined, like Hypnosis).

could it be possible to beleive you`ll live to be 150 and almost make it?

 

 

A question that follows the logic "A is true, therefore can B be true?" is meaningless where there is no evidence that A is true. You see? 

 

interesting that you mention "Bullet proof" I`ve seen many realtime cases on video from my gun club about shootings, the motivated ones can receive lethal shots and still keep operating!?

A shot that does not kill cannot be said to be lethal.

 

and yet several cases of civilians that have been no where near fataly shot will instantly fall to ground and die as if being pushed over by the bullet like some hammy western movie!?

A shot that results in death is, by definition, fatal.

 

as for Voodoo death, I`m aware of that, and wasn`t refering to that, it was a tribe of Bush people (aboriginal IIRC) that can do that. don`t ask for sources, I have non it was ages ago on a docu channel that I saw this.

Ok, I won't.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

"the motivated ones can receive lethal shots and still keep operating!?"

Ever seen a TV show where everyone else is shot and dies, but the main character keeps getting shot and STILL saves the world?

As for willing death, I'm sure it's possible, because you might just be able to (reaching deep into your subconcious after a long time) somehow shut off your heart. Weird.

[Glider]

The latter half of that post boils down to: "Im sure it's possible because it might be possible".

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

he's a genious! ^

[Glider]

It's all relative

[YT2095]

so you recon that fear alone can`t kill?

 

or the placebo effect is false?

 

both of these are entirely mental states that have a profound effect on our physiology

[JaKiri]

YT2095 said in post # :

so you recon that fear alone can`t kill?

 

or the placebo effect is false?

 

both of these are entirely mental states that have a profound effect on our physiology

 

That's not what he's saying at all. He's already covered immune responses, duder.

[YT2095]

my point being is that since these effects are mental states of mind, can the state of mind be forced into creating beneficial effects, including that of a longer lifespan.

like these thugs that receive what would by all intents several fatal wounds under normal states of mind simply "Refuse" to die at the time of the shoot out.

[Glider]

State of mind can result in beneficial effects, yes. As I mentioned, state of mind has been linked to immune function. There is correlative evidence that state of mind can have a significant effect in the presence of pathology, e.g. a type-A personality has been shown to be associated with a more positive outcomes in cases of cancer (However, type-A is also associated with higher risk of coronary heart disease).

 

However, in the absence of pathology, attitude may play a role in extending life expectancy, but that role is most likely to be one of a generally more positive attitude towards health and health behaviours, rather than any mysterious mental ability to delay death.

 

To use the example you provide, if I put a round into somebody that disrupts or destroys structures necessary for continued life, it would bring about a physical state physiologists term 'incompatible with life'. In individuals with such an injury, 'refusal to die' is not a factor.

 

However, in shots that are not immediately fatal (e.g. liver, hepatic artery, renal artery or some such structure), some mental states can induce changes in vasovagal response that would delay the onset of hypovolemic shock. Such individuals may retain consciousness and the ability to function for longer than individuals without that mental state. Nonetheless, without rapid intervention, the end result would be the same for both, and inevitable, regardless of mental state.

[YT2095]

yeah, they did all die eventualy, but they had injuries that would have killed say you or me in a minute or less

 

I was wondering if maybe some for of "hypnosis" could be usefull in combating pathological conditions that would otherwise be worsened by a negative mindset.

I guess at the end of the day, it certainly couldn`t hurt to try

 

cheerz for the info again

[Glider]

You're right, it couldn't hurt to try. Hypnosis basically involves inducing a state of altered suggestibility. It has been described as a process which allows the subject to reinterpret incoming information on a very basic level. This can have advantages in certain conditions. Mental state can influence outcomes in certain circumstances. For example, two people are bitten by a snake. One panics and runs around looking for help. He speeds the progress of the venom and dies quickly. The other sits, remains calm, applies a tournequet and walks off looking for help. He lives a lot longer (but will still die without treatment). The same applies in many situations. In case of fire, a panic response (elevated respiration) will speed the efects of smoke and toxic fumes. In cases of injury involving serious bleeding, a panic response (elevated heart-rate and vasodilation) speeds exanguination and induces a rapid state of shock.

 

In cases of pathology, any suffering caused by the condition is exhausting and takes up resources that would be better employed in fighting the disease. Reduce or eliminate the suffering and you will increase the chances of recovery. However, if the disease compromises any system required for life, death will occur regardless of mental state. Ultimately, survival in cases of serious illness or injury depends upon a fine balance of many different factors including age, general physical health and fitness, the availability, rapidity and quality of treatment and mental state (which most definitely has an effect). In some cases mental state may 'tip the balance' but, on its own, won't defend against fatal conditions.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

That's what I thought. Don't panic, they always say.

I still wonder why on TV the main character is shot 25 times, and he still kills the evil dude, then is rushed to the hospital and survives.

[Skye]

A recent news item that reported studies that claimed that optimism didn't help people with cancer:

 

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=4318066&section=news

[YT2095]

Hmmm... not an area I wish to discuss

 

but certainly enthusiasm/movivation (maybe adrenaline, not sure if thats the chem tho) has certainly kept alive a good many criminals that have tried to escape the law in a shoot out!

there was a debate of what type of ammo the police were to use (I`ve seen official videos and footage of the effects of each type of round) was it to be a heavy load (a 45) or a magnum (44, 375) a 357 mag has the same dimensions as the police special .38`s. infact the rouands are interchangable id your gun will take the power of a magnum round. or high velocity low weight rounds.

 

well basicly after seeing loads of people die and shot to $hit, the general concensus was a "happy medium" the .38 special was adopted as standard issue for police firearms.

 

even so, when "motivated" a lethal wound so to speak will NOT stop them! it seems that only when the fear or "motivation" is gone or pointless, that they die (and most do!).

[Glider]

So, what are you saying?

[YT2095]

well, I`m not 100% sure what your asking about tbh.

so, I`ll have a go at all

 

basicly my reply was cetered around caps remarks about the crap on TV in post #15

refering to the data I`ve watched (real stuff and not Cops on TV).

for wants of a better word I use adrenaline as the thing that keeps them alive (it`s probably a whole bunch of other temporary stuff too).

 

as for the gun data, that was what the vid was about, showing how different criminals respond to getting shot with different rounds (all real time police vids and some military).

 

I`m saying that post #15 has no REAL bearing on reality, as I`ve seen REALITY, and it`s nothing like that, a good 80% of them all died, some instantly.

[atinymonkey]

There is a quite famous samurai ideal in bushido ‘Even if your head is separated from your body, a samurai should retain enough composure to strike down his enemy’ which indicates that the Samurai believed that is was a matter of willpower to continue past the point of rather serious injury.

Of course, the Hagakure also tells of a Samurai who’s head was left attached to the neck with only a strip of skin, and it swung free of the body, who was left up to his neck in rice and healed up quite nicely. So perhaps not altogether a realistic bunch of chaps.

 

BTW YT, isn't watching people getting shot a bit disturbing?

[YT2095]

"to continue past the point of rather serious injury. "

 

Damn, I love understatements like that, ya score a 10 outa 10 for Class on that one

[iglak]

YT2095 said in post # :

I`ve seen many realtime cases on video from my gun club about shootings, the motivated ones can receive lethal shots and still keep operating!?

keyword: motivation

 

In cases of injury involving serious bleeding, a panic response (elevated heart-rate and vasodilation) speeds exanguination and induces a rapid state of shock.

funny you should say that, i heard that sometimes people get accidentally amputated (mines, whatever) and are, in extreme circumstances, able to shut off most of the blood flow to that area.

 

 

okay, one thing i noteced that works in ALL circumstances: pessimism and optimism are loosley defined, and that study shows nothing, except that. i've noticed that when i am playing a video game, specifically farming enemies in Final Fantasy XI to get items to sell, or even to get quest items, i often get the items faster than others. i am not particularily pessimistic or optimistic, it is all luck, but luck is a human skill that can be refined. in this game, there you can be a thief, and they learn a skill called "treasure hunter, " which supposedly drops more items. my friend got this class, and the skill, and started farming. he didn't get very many items. his problem was that he was relying on the skill, just as i assume those cancer patients are optimistic that the doctors will cure them. other people, when looking for certain quest items may take hours of killing the right enemies to get it. whereas i only take up to 15 minutes of killing the right enemies. i am not optimistic that it will drop, i am not pessimistic that it won't, i am simply not actually looking for the item. i look for the enemy, and then hope that it will drop the item, but until i am close to killing the enemy, i am only motivated in killing the enemy so that i might get the item. at that point i really want the item, so i channel my motivation into thinking that the item will drop.

 

okay... so i am not quite explaining it very well. basically, motivation is key. don't hope that it will happen, hope that you will do it. sorry to quote "The Matrix," but... all you have to do is believe.

 

DO NOT mix "believe" with "think" they are completely different. "believe" relates to your subconscious, while "think" relates to your conscious. if you think that the subconscious is uncontrollable, you are sadly mistaken. i suggest you learn to meditate.

 

of course, this is no substitute for physical health.

 

 

you know what? just take martial arts, then you get the best of both worlds, and a few more to boot. through martial arts you can become extremely healthy physically. and if you have a true martial artist for a teacher, he/she will also teach you:

how to control your emotions. specifically fear, anger, and panic, all extremely useful if you want to "believe" that you can live longer, survive this dissease, or whatever.

how to meditate. clear your mind of unwanted emotions, and think and focus on one (or more) thought(s).

how to motivate yourself. use that unused anger to power your muscles by channeling blood and adrenalin to the needed areas (yes, this is possible) so that you can do things that you could not normally do.

 

P.S. this is why i think the martial artists and budhists will be the last to win darwin awards, and the last to die in riots.

[iglak]

atinymonkey said in post # :

BTW YT, isn't watching people getting shot a bit disturbing?

ignorance = bliss

knowledge = pain

understanding = enlightenment

i'm gonna make this my sig

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

If knowledge=pain, I'd be addicted to morphine right now.

How can you channel blood and adrenaline to specific places?

[iglak]

Cap'n Refsmmat said in post # :

If knowledge=pain, I'd be addicted to morphine right now.

lol, i meant if you have knowledge of something, but don't understand it, you will likely panic and harm others (mentally or physically), making your life a living hell. for example, drugs: they exist, we know it. one can become ignorant of them, being only blissfully aware. one can have knowledge of them, not understanding how they work, and not understanding why the adults are trying to control your lives by telling you they are bad. or one can have understanding of them, take them when you want in moderation and using them correctly, and not becoming addicted as easily because you know what to expect.

 

okay, so pain was a poor choice of words, but it's better that what i first thought of, "hell" (and i would have put "heaven" in for enlightenment). that could have gotten people both mad and confused. at least this way i only get confusion...

 

How can you channel blood and adrenaline to specific places?

it's very hard for me to explain (i am not entirely good at explaining things anyway). if you have ever watched "Dragon Ball Z," then attempt to power up your hand so that you can shoot an energy ball. if you do "believe" (not think) this, then your hand will probably warm up by about 5 degrees (farenheit), which can be measured. i assume this is blood flowing there. actually, i don't know about the addrenalin part. because blood was flowing there, i thought the adrenalin (i know i am spelling this wrong...) would flow there too, but i suppose your brain could only recognize it flowing there and not see everywhere else... or something like that.

 

<edit> for those of you who don't know: basically, Dragon Ball Z is an anime show about people that teach themselves martial arts and fighting skills and can fly, shoot energy balls, power up, and more, just by motivating themselves and (... can't think of a good word to use here) "channeling" their energy in specific ways (like to your hand to build an energy ball there which can then be thrown... or shot away). you really have to see it to understand how to do it (or maybe something similar, like some other anime shows).