God hates Chavs

[Royston]

Yesterday I had to endure another chav episode whilst trying to study on the bus...with the usual taunts 'gonna stab this guy yeah, gonna spit in the drivers face yeah, got kicked outta school yeah, my mate stabbed this guy yeah...et.c'

 

This got me wondering, and perhaps the problem applies throughout history, I'm not sure. But, is there some trick that could be applied, say, economically or politically that could stamp out chavs and asbos and remove them from our evolution.

 

The problem is, smart and successful people are caught in lifestyles that warrant smaller families, due to more responsibility (I realize that's a slight generalization) but to be really successful today, and considering the 'house wife' role is diminishing (which I personally think is a good thing) you have to study and work your butt off. Competition demands this. Where as chav society doesn't require this, homes and benefits are provided, so whilst they are spawning more chavs, the people who really provide towards society will gradually become less, due to the competition to be successful, and the amount of time this requires.

 

So does anyone have any ideas...I was thinking around benefit schemes, obviously at face value this seems incredibly unethical, and perhaps my assumption that people that really do make a difference will still persevere. I'm just worried that, over time, we'll evolve into ...well chavs.

 

EDIT: For anyone who doesn't live in the UK, and would like a definition of chav, please say. ASBO is an acronym of anti-social behaviour order...so Asbos is a term coined for disruptive children / teenagers.

[YT2095]

unlikely, it`s just yet another stupid teenage Fad like the old Teddy Boys of the 50`s the Mods of the 60`s the Punks of the 70`s a Rude Boys of the 80`s blah blah blah.

 

Chavs and wiggers and Neds are here for now, give it X amount of years it`ll be something else.

 

mark my words

[Royston]

I agree to an extent, but I'm not convinced society was so competitive over the last few decades for an individual to truly make a difference...just for themselves, let alone society as a whole. Take the eighties...yuppie culture was spawned, and it's sustained...competition between businesses leaves little time for other pursuits, name a decade pre-eighties where women were gaining the success they deserve...i.e terms such as 'girl power' are incredibly recent.

 

But, where is this competition for 'so-called' chav culture.

[the tree]

The curious thing is that it's the only subculture that refuses to acknowledge itself as a subculture, despite being really weird they still promote themselves as the normal option. It openly promotes conformity (whilst all subcultures are conformist part of their purpose it is to pretend not to be).

Mods were calling themselves mods and punks were calling themselves punks, but chavs never acknowledge themselves as anything other than normal.

 

This leads me to think that the whole chav thing is different to the other subcultures, in some fundamental way, but not being a sociologist I can't really take that train of thought much further.

[YT2095]

check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

[Royston]

The curious thing is that it's the only subculture that refuses to acknowledge itself as a subculture, despite being really weird they still promote themselves as the normal option. It openly promotes conformity (whilst all subcultures are conformist part of their purpose it is to pretend not to be).

Mods were calling themselves mods and punks were calling themselves punks, but chavs never acknowledge themselves as anything other than normal.

 

This leads me to think that the whole chav thing is different to the other subcultures, in some fundamental way, but not being a sociologist I can't really take that train of thought much further.

 

This is precisely what I was discussing with my housemate last night...and (I know I bang on about the media) it plays a huge part in deluding chavs that they're a social norm. For instance shows such as Big Brother, almost celebrate stupidity, glamorizing utter morons and appealing to highly questionable personalities. It stands to reason that if this is what's considered acceptable in the name of entertainment, then I should imagine it's considered acceptable in the mindset of a chav...it's a bizarre situation.

 

I think the definition of chav has extended beyond the Burberry stereotype, and is used for any gangs of youths that just cause trouble. A recent trend...near where we live anyway, is that these gangs are organized, one even had it's own website !?!

 

Might I add, that this is NOT a rant thread (for anyone who just wants to have a moan about the problem), I actually want to discuss possible solutions. I'd also be interested if there's similar problems in other countries...so far I feel it's western culture that's going down this road, and western culture can be highly influential. I may be jumping the gun a little, but as the tree said, the problem is unique.

[Phi for All]

Do most chavs live with their parents? Young people with no responsibilities to their own household have all the time in the world to find mischief. This happens a great deal in the US, partly because of the high housing market that keeps young people from breaking off on their own. There are other factors as well. When I moved out of my parent's house I didn't have internet, cell phones and cable TV to budget for. Many young people today consider those basics and won't live without them so they don't move out, they don't invest themselves in an independent life and so they end up bored with plenty of time for trouble.

[blue_cristal]

Where as chav society doesn't require this, homes and benefits are provided, so whilst they are spawning more chavs, the people who really provide towards society will gradually become less, due to the competition to be successful, and the amount of time this requires.

 

Being successful economically does not equate with being successful evolutionarily.

 

Evolution “does not care” about your bank account or if you are clever or idiot. It only “cares” on how many viable offspring you leave in the population and how it influences its genetic pool and how it can augment or diminish the chances of perpetuating your species.

 

If you are rich but you leave less viable descendents than poor people then you are probably a evolutionary failure.

 

( Note that I am using “care” as metaphor to mean that natural selection has no consciousness nor morality. It is a “blind” natural process ).

 

If we want radical changes in society we have to resort to accelerated artificial selection through genetic engineering, not natural selection.

[Royston]

If you are rich but you leave less viable descendents than poor people then you are probably a evolutionary failure.

 

( Note that I am using “care” as metaphor to mean that natural selection has no consciousness nor morality. It is a “blind” natural process ).

 

If we want radical changes in society we have to resort to accelerated artificial selection through genetic engineering, not natural selection.

 

See italics, that's what I'm eluding to, and I agree with the rest of your post...I actually studied evolution last year, so it was a bit daft that I used the word evolution, because this problem is not an adaptation process. <slaps own wrist>

 

Phi, yeah, they're just kids, and probably sulk at the dinner table waiting to get outside and vandalize the local bus stop. I agree that technology is certainly a player to...especially mobile phones, have you heard of 'happy slapping', this is another craze where chavs video themselves beating up members of the public. AFAIK it still goes on.

[hotcommodity]

As implied by YT's link, this subculture appears to stem from the African American/hip-hop culture. In my opinion, it's a degenerative subculture that has nothing worthwhile to offer to society. The culture, of course, originates in the U.S., and it makes me wonder how an educated society allows people to develop such a lacking culture. If we think back to the Civil War period, we realize that African Americans were released into society with little to no education. The rest of society continued to section them off for the next 100 years, and neglected their societal and educational needs- the kind of needs that would allow them to function properly with the rest of American society. But they didn't get the attention they needed, and thus began to form their own culture and subcultures. I blame the leaders in America for not having the foresight to prevent these types of unprogressive and derogatory subcultures. And its unfortunate that its worked its way into educated societies, both in America and in other parts of the world.

[Royston]

As implied by YT's link, this subculture appears to stem from the African American/hip-hop culture. In my opinion, it's a degenerative subculture that has nothing worthwhile to offer to society. The culture, of course, originates in the U.S., and it makes me wonder how an educated society allows people to develop such a lacking culture. If we think back to the Civil War period, we realize that African Americans were released into society with little to no education. The rest of society continued to section them off for the next 100 years, and neglected their societal and educational needs- the kind of needs that would allow them to function properly with the rest of American society. But they didn't get the attention they needed, and thus began to form their own culture and subcultures. I blame the leaders in America for not having the foresight to prevent these types of unprogressive and derogatory subcultures. And its unfortunate that its worked its way into educated societies, both in America and in other parts of the world.

 

YT's link is a tired stereotype as already mentioned, and the route of 'chav culture' has little or nothing to do with the routes you've described, a slight and tenuous influence...perhaps, but please study the argument properly...it's recent trends that have shaped the culture.

 

Chav culture is a product of 'all' the facets described above, they are the route, you certainly don't need to probe back into history, because slight influence doesn't compete with the current influences that have shaped the culture...meaning your argument is logically fallacious, I can explain why that is, if you so wish.

 

However, out of interest, Hotcommodity have you experienced the same moral decline where you live, and if so, what do you think is the cause ?

[hotcommodity]

However, out of interest, Hotcommodity have you experienced the same moral decline where you live, and if so, what do you think is the cause ?

 

Well, when I attended middle school and high school, I certainly noticed a moral decline among my peers. The kids hear rap/hip hop/violent music on the radio, they watch how these degenerates act on television, and they think it's alright to imitate them. The people that are in charge of what they listen to and watch on television tend to care less about the trends that they set in society, and more about making money. I see the same thing today that I saw 10 years ago, and its only getting worse. The unfortunate thing is that the juveniles you experienced on the bus will probably be raising kids of their own some day, and the question is if they'll have the sense to teach their kids to act any different. I'm not so sure this moral decline is a trend that will eventually die out. It's the type of thing that sends the respectibility of society spiraling downward.

[bascule]

We have something similar to chavs here in the States. They are generally known as "wiggers", a portmanteau of white and you can probably guess the other word.

 

I had a wigger roommate, and spent several months dealing with both him and his friends that he would invite over to our house. Here is what I learned:

 

Some general characteristics:

 

- Of low moral fiber and thus generally somewhat criminal

- Generally unconcerned with the well-being of others

- Not typically concerned with their physical hygene (like their moral hygene)

- Highly unintelligent and easily confused by complex concepts

- No long term plans, simply drifting through life leeching off of others or the system whenever possible in a completely directionless, oblivious manner

- Aggressive: Likely to instigate physical conflict over matters which are better settled with a simple "Pardon me", or simply for no reason at all

- But cowardly: Likely to lose in a direct physical confrontation with your average male, so more likely to pick on the weak, female, or to use the element of surprise (followed by a quick escape)

- Enamored with (US) black culture, particularly rap/hip-hop. Likely an enthusiast of rapping themselves. Listen almost exclusively to recent top 40s hip-hop / gangsta rap

- Place extreme value upon ostentatious valuables and liquid wealth, with little care for long term assets. Generally bad with money.

- Enjoy wife beaters (as in the article of clothing), doo rags, and baseball caps worn backwards or sideways. Sometimes donned in various combinations (doo rag and a baseball cap or multiple baseball caps)

- Generally untrustworthy, exploitative people

 

Do these qualities describe chavs?

 

It seems like in the UK there are also female chavs. Do they exhibit similar qualities? In the US wiggers are exclusively male. There are female hangers on to the crowd, but in general they are simply vain and unintelligent girls who like rap/hip-hop and black culture but otherwise are not identifiable with the subculture.

[Royston]

Do these qualities describe chavs?

 

Almost exactly, apart from the strong gangster rap influence, there's a definite influence from rave culture, where clubs across Britain have accommodated for teenage nights, where they'll play trashy happy hardcore, and European dance music (imagine the crazy frog music, minus crazy frog) excruciatingly unimaginative and irritating. Dumbed down music, if you like. Which ties in with the media catering for the market. Which is a shame, because, there's been some incredibly good music to come from the hedonistic late eighties / early nineties of Britain.

 

It seems like in the UK there are also female chavs.

 

Yes, chav isn't really gender specific...female chavs, let's call them chavettes, certainly fill the criteria you've mentioned. The only ethical solution, or at least part of the solution is clogging the artery of dumbed down media influence, and perhaps enforcing mandatory ethics classes at school, unfortuantely I doubt the latter would have any effect. Also, there's much more to the problem as already mentioned in earlier posts.

[abskebabs]

Personally, I think the way to tackle the issues at hand is to ignore the material and observatinally apparent characterisitics of this subculture if we consentually refer to it as such. The issues to be tackled have to be the poor way in which many youngsters now behave towards their elders and other members of the public, the way in which their irrseponsible behaviour and actions have become encouraged, and to look for how to tackle possible root causes. Overall the picture looks complicated to me, and I reckon any solution will be just as much, if not more.

 

Perhaps a kind of reformed welfare state in the UK, whereby people are encouraged to make a real commitment to look for a job before obtaining benefits, or perhaps having some sort of tangible commitment to a cause relevant to this. It's true as YT points out that youth culture needs to assert itself in a way to separate itself from the mainstream, and this could in a few ways be a manifestation of this but my suspiscion is there is more involved here, and there are serious societal issues to address.

 

This might be a little extreme, but a kick up the arse from the state could get a lot of people to get their act together, or maybe resort to crime, but there would be consequences of that of course.

 

This "chav culture" or whatever we may refer to it as, together with the connotations we associate with it, personally; from my interpretation and perspective has become all pervasive throughout schools across the UK. The fact is people are not encouraged to be ambitious in any kind of realistic constructive way, and maybe the wider world is something they consensually become ignorant of. I think more than anything else it is a culture of ignorance, and it will be difficult to uproot.

 

Even writing this I can't feel ignorant of my own experiences and past behaviour. There was a brieft time when I feel I was affected by this too, and tried to act kinda "street", in fact it embarrasses me writing this, but the truth often is. I guess it's a case of monkey do monkey copy.

 

If you see your peers acting like this, you feel compelled to follow, and if not you feel odd for not doing so. Asserting an identity also has a lot to do with it. I remember though the way I acted was in a way out of contempt for "authority", and I looked for ways to get out of doing things people told me to do for my own good, but ignored it out of spite for them in a way. This youth culture only encouraged it, but I guess part of that might be ordinary teenage behaviour.

 

What I feel separated me more than anything else from this was the way I felt I had something to prove in doing well academically to my parents(especially my dad), the way my parents pushed me, but more than anything else the ambition I had, and always had. When I was a kid I drew pictures and designs for inventions, that later I saw the flaws of and learned most were erroneous(damn the second law of thermodynamics! ). But more seriously, I always wanted to know how things worked, and was quite a difficult kid. I think I can still be a difficult person to deal with, and I still get a little amused in a cocky way if I annoy a person of authority, who responds in a way that is emotionally manipulable. It's a childish joy winding people up:eyebrow:

 

If we were able to instill positive ambitions in kids to do something with their lives, and let them see the rewards of being so this would encourage many to change their attitude. Also a lot of the role lies with parents too. I remember one of my biology teachers remarking about something to with White families not instilling their kids with the same kind of parental pressure that asian and immigrant families do, and how this was affecting academic performance. Whether or not this explanation is true, the assertions are certainly reflected in the statistics, boys of a white origin are the worst performers in GCSE scores I think(for the UK). I'm sorry if I am corrected wrong.

 

I think the phenomenon is maybe less pronounced or even absent from the private school sector, as I canimagine them doing a lot to stamp it out. Also kids who go to private schools will be the kind of people stigmatised by this same group of people so may develop their own kind of anti culture against this. In a way I saw this at my own school, but I can't say it happens everywhere. The attitude towards uni students may be a similiar one.

 

I guess the best thing you could say to someone in a "chav" frame of mind, thinking that they are acting rebellious and behaving in a general antisocial manner is whether they reject what people in a position of authority in society(I mean this term vaguely, for lack of a better expression) tell them to because they think for themselves and genuinely apathise what they are saying, or whether they feel compelled to because they are by their mates.

 

I'm sure, especially if you ask them in the form I just put above, you would be extensively ridiculed by them in whatever cocky or brainless comeback they have. But you never know, you might touch a nerve. I don't know, I think this thing has to be acknowledged and tackled by people who can do something about it like parents, teachers, youth workers etc.

 

Thats my 2 cents(more like dollars!) on this. Interpret of it what you will, I hope it is a constructive addition to this thread.