ed84c Posted October 28, 2004 Author Posted October 28, 2004 oh hell. BTW where can i buy flourine for my element collection (cheaply NOT from an element collecting site)
jdurg Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 You can't get fluorine gas unless you have a license. It's highly controlled due to its insane toxicity and reactivity. You're better off getting some fluoride salts, since they are not nearly as reactive and over a very long period of time they do give off a miniscule amount of fluorine gas.
budullewraagh Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 ...i wouldnt be telling them that...sorry guys but fluorine is not stuff you ever want to be exposed to. it is beyond lethal. it's an oxidizer from hell. when you are exposed to it it goes straight to your heart and kills you. fluorine is incredibly more dangerous than chlorine. dont mess with it. dont even try to get it.
Gilded Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 "when you are exposed to it it goes straight to your heart and kills you. fluorine is incredibly more dangerous than chlorine. dont mess with it. dont even try to get it." In a 0.5ml ampoule, it wouldn't really kill anyone if it broke now would it? However, fluorine (as bud has said maaany times) isn't something to be played with, ESPECIALLY in large quantities. And having fluorine in a glass container isn't usually too wise, as glass will actually burn when targeted by a stream of fluorine, which makes it virtually impossible to have a glass container that will withstand the attack of fluorine for more than 50 years (and even the 50 years come after a LOT of work). Perhaps if you don't belong in the collector group of "I-want-everything-100%-pure" you might want to consider some salt of fluorine (as jdurg suggested).
budullewraagh Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 youd be surprised man. if it broke and you breathed any of it youd be really, really hurting
YT2095 Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 you`de really need a "Quick seal" type of vial for Fluorine, it`s not impossible to do in a fume cuboard, with evertything set up. but several practice runs are best before doing the real thing, Timing is critical!!!!!
jdurg Posted October 29, 2004 Posted October 29, 2004 Fluorine itself doesn't really attack glass. However, if there is the slightest bit of water in the area the F2 will react with the water forming HF, and the HF is what eats glass. If you had 100% pure fluorine gas without any HF or H2O near it, and had a completely dry, and I mean COMPLETELY, ampoule you could seal it up and it would last a good long while.
YT2095 Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 how does Iodic (V) Acid compare? it has a PK of 0.8 and sulphuric at 1.92. edit: Iodic V acid =HIO3
Tian_07 Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 okay my theory on the reason that HF is so strong is because of the strong conjugate base (F-)... an acid's strength is based on the electronegativity of the central atom in an oxoacid and the conjugate base in a binary acid... in this case, F- has an electronegativity of 4.00, and therefore, will attract the hydrogen atom strongly... so it is a weaker acid. HOWEVER, the F- ion is the most reactive of all of the non metals in the whole periodic table, so when the h+ ion has reacted, it tends to react with some of the strongest things, such as glass and other substances, either covalently or electrovalently... so in turn, it seems "strong"... but really is rather weak... HCl and HI are stronger acids than HF, but their conjugate bases are not that reactive... and they would not seem less corrosive... this is my theory... but i could be wrong... so if anyone could reply to me about the "Free F- ion being damned reactive" thing. i'd greatly appreciate it.
budullewraagh Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 actually, HF doesn't dissociate too much because of the strong forces between the hydrogen and fluorine
jdurg Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 Also, I don't believe the F- ion is all that potent. Simply because once fluorine gets that extra electron, it's not about to let it go. (And since the workings of the electron are what causes reactivity, if the electron is not about to move from fluorine it's not going to be too reactive. If it were reactive, any fluoride salt would be incredibly potent since it would have a LOT of dissociated F- ions). The Cl-, Br-, and I- ions are more "reactive", I believe.
budullewraagh Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 well actually, i believe that youd find that the fluoride ion causes many crazy reactions. think of it this way, we have the Na+/K+ pump going on in the axon of nerve cells. so then a bunch of HF comes in. the F- decides to stick to the Na+/K+ and you are left with a bunch of H+ that goes around protonating things
ed84c Posted November 11, 2004 Author Posted November 11, 2004 lolly roffleys 'protonating', If Floruine is so reactive as it has one gap close to the nucleus, but hydrodgen as one gap even closer then why is H not more reactive than F, ie. if you put h in HF then why does H not displave the F?
jdurg Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 lolly roffleys 'protonating'' date=' If Floruine is so reactive as it has one gap close to the nucleus, but hydrodgen as one gap [i'] even closer [/i] then why is H not more reactive than F, ie. if you put h in HF then why does H not displave the F? Well, how much of a pull does one electron feel from one proton as opposed to 9 protons? In order to convert F- into fluorine gas, you would need to pull an electron off of the F- atom. Hydrogen simply does not exert enough of a pull on the F- to take an electron away from it.
jdurg Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 well actually, i believe that youd find that the fluoride ion causes many crazy reactions. think of it this way, we have the Na+/K+ pump going on in the axon of nerve cells. so then a bunch of HF comes in. the F- decides to stick to the Na+/K+ and you are left with a bunch of H+ that goes around protonating things But NaF and KF are water soluble, so they aren't going to be suddenly settling out of solution.
ed84c Posted November 11, 2004 Author Posted November 11, 2004 Well, how much of a pull does one electron feel from one proton as opposed to 9 protons? In order to convert F- into fluorine gas, you would need to pull an electron off of the F- atom. Hydrogen simply does not exert enough of a pull on the F- to take an electron away from it. if that is correct then why is F more reactive than Cl?
budullewraagh Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 the atomic radius of chlorine is significantly greater than fluorine. thus its effective nuclear charge is greater.
budullewraagh Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 But NaF and KF are water soluble, so they aren't going to be suddenly settling out of solution. right but youre left with ionized hydronium cations running around protonating things. see what i mean?
ed84c Posted November 11, 2004 Author Posted November 11, 2004 got a fromula to work out the strongest electron sink or doner?
budullewraagh Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 electronegativity. according to linus pauling: X=((0.31(n+1+or-c))/r)+0.50 n=valance electrons c=formal valance charge on atom. is positive or negative depending on polarity of charge. r=covalent radius
jdurg Posted November 11, 2004 Posted November 11, 2004 the atomic radius of chlorine is significantly greater than fluorine. thus its effective nuclear charge is greater[/b']. I think you mean "lower". Also, here's a GREAT link which explains the toxicity of fluoride.
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