The Psychology of Bondage and Masochism

[Moontanman]

Could these "deviant" behaviors be connected with the desire to "feel" something out of control and dangerous with out any real danger? Something like being scared by watching horror flick or being scared by riding a roller coaster or some other seemingly risky thrill ride where you get the thrill without the danger?

[June]

Thanx for replying to my long post all about me.

I realize that you don't have to be into the life style to be into it.

I think that I just need to come to terms with how I view my self now that I know how society views it, and how that aspect of me fits into the rest etc... (i.e. I'm over philosophizing.)

 

The desire to feel danger with no real danger involved?

But than I wonder how you would explain getting turned on by it instead of just liking it... People don't get turned on by roller coasters but they still like them...

[ParanoiA]

I realize that you don't have to be into the life style to be into it.

I think that I just need to come to terms with how I view my self now that I know how society views it' date=' and how that aspect of me fits into the rest etc... (i.e. I'm over philosophizing.)[/quote']

 

I understand that, makes sense. Good thing is that nowadays sexual deviancy is not as brow beaten as it once was. It's also good to be clear on exactly how and when your control dynamics turn on and off. For instance, I'm a dominant, but only in a sexual dynamic. I have no desire to control my partner and their life outside of our intimacy.

 

But not all dominants are like that. In fact, the few I've run into, are 24/7 assholes, actually. They've just taken their jealous control issues and worked them into a social philosophy to live by. And some women are drawn to that.

 

Seems like it would be a good idea for you to discover, in yourself, what part of all this is sexual necessity, or if this implies more of a permanent social dynamic that you're drawn to. I've seen people get discouraged and burned with miserable experiences because they didn't realize how intense their partners were. Particularly inexperienced submissives falling prey to predatory dominators. Trust is too important to this to recover from betrayal.

[June]

Well, by nature I'm a person who never takes risks.

And I've always lived a very free life style (my parents raised me more freely than I've ever seen anyone else raised. And I've been to democratic schools, etc.) and I enjoy it very much. In fact I proably have more control over my own life than a vast vast majority of people...

In other words I'm sure I'm not into 24/7.

Yeah, trust. For sure... In any kinda relationship, actually.

 

Thanks, again for responding because I'm right now and it actually means alot to me...

 

Any way. I'll shut up now, because I'm sure that a science forum is a less than ideal place to discuss one's sexuality...

Speaking of it being a science forum, even though I only joined to respond to this, it seems interesting...

[ParanoiA]

Yeah, I'm guessing you're going to be similar to most of us, more or less, in that it's a great spice for your intimacy and it stays there. Just be open with your partner and be clear on your do's and don'ts. Exploration is so much fun at the outset. When you're first testing your limits, your fears - it's quite liberating and rarely will your subsequent follow-ups match the same intensity as the first.

 

Good luck. And yeah, I guess it's not ideal to discuss all of this here, but without all the graphic detail, I figure we're ok. You might be surprised how many are genuinely curiously reading this thread.

[June]

Wow! Yeah! 5,854?! Is that really how many times this thread has been viewed?? It's up there...

Crazy! Now my deepest darkest secret is spread across the world! LOL

 

However. It is about sex. Which is a very universal topic on all levels. (Physically, mentally, instinctually etc.) We wouldn't exist without it.

Sometimes I can get frusterated with how sex obsessed everything seems. But on the other, not only is it natural, but it seems particularly necessary now in a time when we are still only just coming out of sexual opression of all kinds.

It puzzles me though... You would think that the farther back in history you go the closer to our roots as living beings we would have been, and so we would not have developed the need to opress something so basic and inherant to life... as sex. And other things too.

Very weird paralels and juxtapositions of getting more and more screwed up and more and more unscrewing up, it seems... But I guess this is the constant chaos that we throw our selves into in order to stay alive.

And we are alive still and are not going extinct yet, so maybe we do have something to owe to how messed up we can be... as well as how AWSOME! we can be.

Yay! celibrate humanity for all it's (perhaps needed)faults! It's not something I do very often.

 

(Kay, was that about as off topic of "The Psychology of Bondage and Masochism" as I could get??)

[ParanoiA]

Now my deepest darkest secret is spread across the world! LOL

 

Yeah, but only a handful of us bothered to use your IP to get your name and home address, so don't sweat it.

 

Just kidding, of course.

 

But, I'm glad it's as liberated as it is, but it's still pretty stuffy material for too many people, in my mind. It's so healthy and positive on so many levels that to oppress it in any way seems as insulting and productive as restricting yourself from smiling. My impulse is a big, fat Why?? It costs nothing, it's great for your heart, good for intimacy, good for your mental health...

 

And we're miles away from psychology in this thread, that's for sure. That's actually why I started watching this thing, I was hoping for some psychological break down. Not that it will really change anything, I'm perfectly happy with who I am.

[June]

I guess I should be expecting people coming up to the door and being like: "So...You're a masochist, eh?" LOL.

 

I know. I can't see how sex became something to consider 'bad' in any way.

I think that we can't ever be liberated enough in all ways though. But it seems like we are always trying and in trying becoming more accepting of each other and our selves... Still, and always a work in progress though... *sigh*

 

Even though I came in and was like: "Hey! I'm here and here's my problem that has nothing to do with psychology, let alone science." I'm interested in the original subject as well... Well, 'cause I am this way, and am realizing that psychology, of any kind, seems really fascinating...

[curiousgeorge]

I was reading through this thread and wanted to reply. So I regestered and here I am.

A bit of background, I have studied both biology and ecology, and have some graduate work in animal behavior science, as well as some coursework in anthropology.

I don't mean to imply that I am an authority by any means, but I wanted to illustrate that I have been fascinated by human behavior for quite some time, especially traits that seem to be "hardwired", and why certain seemingly illogical traits develop in otherwise rational, "healthy" humans.

Someone earlier remarked that they thought it was strange that the desire to be hurt or abused could last in the gene pool. Their assumption seemed to be that this type of behavior would eventually remove itself. But in order for a trait (if it is genetically encoded) to be removed, it would need to cause a net decrease in the total number of viable offspring that the trait carrier had during his/her lifetime, or decrease the likelihood that their offspring wold be able to reproduce effectively. So unless the individual with a penchant for being abused was abused to the point where he/she could not continue producing and rearing offspring, then the trait would not be removed from the genepool.

It is also entirely possible that these so called "deviant" sexual preferences are not caused by any particular gene, but are caused as a side effect to the convergence of multiple other traits. The comment that interest in "deviant" behavior may be correlated to a high intelligence illustrates this point. It is posible that people whose brains work a certain way are drawn to practices that distract their brains, or need a higher level of mental stimulation for sexual arousal. Regretfully, it seems that very little scientific research has been done in this area, and little data is available to form reasonbly accurate conclusions. Most available "data" comes from anecdotal conversations like this thread. I found a poll on MrPoll.com where a pollster asked the question whether respondants had ever engaged in bondage play. An astounding 70 some odd percentage responded "yes". Of course, the only people who answered the poll were people who were curious of the subject and did a search of the available polls to find it. So most respondants were probably either involved in bondage play, or were curious of the subject for scientific reasons.

One reason that so little is known of the area is the very heavy social taboo asociated with sex in general, and even more so in "deviant" sexual practices.

Most posters to this thread did so knowing that their identity was relatively had to obtain. Societies have created complex social rules and taboos around sex for a long time. In fact if you think about it, we have very complex social rules about anything that involves the interaction between two people. If you look at any societal or group dwelling animals you see the same complex rule structure.

I believe that much of this stems from the dangers associated with interaction.

When two unknown individuals meet, there is always the threat that one may be hostile. These social norms establish a ritual for displaying intent, disposition, etc.

When these types of social rules are taken to the extreme by an advanced society like a human society, things get very complicated. Since two prospective mates need to be very careful about whom they chose to mate with, it makes sense that the rituals and toboos associated with mating would be very complex, and very ingrained in the phyche of the individuals. So much so that one person may find it impossible to become sexually aroused unless their potential partner has certain traits, and follows a certain preferred code of conduct. This could lead to the development of fetishes and certain sexual needs to be fulfilled. Since the human brain is so complex, these needs could logically develop into seemingly irrational of "deviant" needs that are had coded in one individual, and seem foreign or "irrational" in another.

It just takes time for society to accept these seemingly "strange" needs. Is it deviant to like your partner to wear that special red lingerie that you bought her? At first glance that may seem strange to someone who doesn't like that style of lingerie. Why would you want part of your mate to be covered with clothing? However, that is a perfectly acceptable "fetish" in today's society.

 

Well, I've typed quite a bit and it is late. Hopefully I've inspired some thoughts on the subject and didn't bore everyone to another thread... I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on what I typed, and any other thoughts as well. I find this conversation very interesting.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Criscience]

The late Father of Sexology and Johns Hopkins Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry and Pediatrics Dr. John Money classified sadomasochism as a paraphilia of the sacrificial/expiatory type which requires reparation and atonement for the sin of lust by way of penance and sacrifice.

 

There is a good precis of Money's construction here. The point is made that it is not so much pain and its infliction that is the turn-on, but the skewed distribution of power.

 

Also interesting is the fact that there appears to be "fewer individuals with sexual sadistic tendencies than sexual masochistic inclinations. In other words more people eroticize being submissive. This may reflect a general social script that tells us it is more virtuous to be punished than to be an aggressor toward another."

 

Two of Money's books which shed light on this are Lovemaps and Gay, Straight, and In-Between: The Sexology of Erotic Orientation.

[shaniquaharris]

I am 19 and I have had the thoughts of being The reciver of pain since puberty at age ten. My baby's daddy/ best friend has been very supportive so far and as agreed to choke me with a belt has well as smack me before and during sex. I do not know the word for it but I have been to therepy for it. i am trying to find out what I am and if I should seek help I have searched every website I could find on pain but it brought me to bdsm I know that isn't for me because I can't get off on the things they explain in it. it seems 100% fake and I'm not in to role play or fore play can you help me please you are my last hope. What am I and am I normal?

[zule]

I hadn’t found this thread when I opened the related http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29536 one (BDSM and Biochemistry). I want to go back to its post lately, but first, I wanted to answer to shaniquaharris in the hope that he still reads this: I strongly believe you are into the BDSM. There are a lot of people who have felt they are not normal because of those feelings, including me. But the BDSM is merely a way of feeling which a lot of people share to a greater o lesser measure.

 

I also understand your feeling what you have seeing in websites about BDSM is fake, because much of that you see on BDSM websites is fake (generally the more commercial the web, the more fake the situations), and people who really have deep BDSM feelings can feel disappointed. I would advise you to better visit BDSM forums, where people can share their feelings.

 

I don’t know where you are from, but there is an international social web, http://www.fetlife.com where there are a wide range of ways of feeling the BDSM and fetishism, from merely a from-time-to-time role-play to real rooted feelings. I think it must be the bigger social web in the world about BDSM, I belong to it and it has hundreds of thousands of members and hundreds of different groups. But you can also look for other social webs or forums when you can feel well.

 

The important thing is that you know you are normal, what you have is a gift to enjoy.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you.

 

zule

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

agentchange’s ideas in the subject are strongly widespread. I myself though in the past I was insane because of my desires. But ours is really only another way of living the sex and the relatioships.

 

It sounds like you think you have to either be a BDSM "person" or not, and that doesn't make any sense to me, unless you're considering an entire BDSM lifestyle.

I wanted to answer to ParanoiA because there is a lot of discussion about this topic in the BDSM environment. I think you can say there are BDSM people in the same way you can say there are homosexual people. That doesn’t mean there are not levels. There are bisexual people, who could be more biased to homosexuality or heterosexuality and there are people who is mostly heterosexual but are curious about homosexuality and try it. It’s the same with BDSM. There are people whose way of feeling the sex and the relationships is almost exclusively through the BDSM, while other people only use the BDSM to spicy the things up. I consider myself a BDSM person; although I wouldn’t have an entire BDSM lifestyle, what it is called a 24/7 relationship, I need the BDSM to have a full relationship.

 

I wrote an article about “Biochemistry of Submissiveness” for a BDSM Spanish magazine and I started to translate it to English for a forum in the social web I have previously referred. I am uploading it by parts in that forum but, as I have almost finished the translation, when it is complete, I will upload it here in the threat “BDSM and Biochemistry”

Edited October 24, 2009 by zule
Consecutive posts merged.

[Spywriter]

Hi Everybody!

I am new to this forum, and I was fascinated by this thread, which came up when I googled "Masochism". I would also say that although I am a professional, this is not my area of expertise, so I would absolutely appreciate anyone correcting ideas I advance here. Also, any references re published work in this area would be appreciated.

 

This is the first time I have written down this idea, which is a conception of S&M that I have held for a couple of years.

 

I believe that it is possible to find an evolutionary justification for both S and M. My argument is as follows:

 

An aggressive male has more chance of transmitting his genes. (he copulates more)

A submissive female has similarly a better chance of transmitting her genes. (she copulates more)

Sadism is the maximal way-out-on-a-limb expression of aggression

Masochism is the way-out-of-the-bell-shaped-curve expression of submissiveness

 

Why is it therefore that you can have submissive males and aggressive females?

 

One mechanism would be to posit that aggression/submission is transmitted in a gender neutral manner.

(BTW, not the same as saying it isn't "sex linked")

An aggressive male will then be able to transmit his aggression genes to both his male and female offspring.

Any aggressive female offspring he has, will have somewhat less chance of transmitting genes, because males prefer to deal with submissive females (it's less work)

A submissive male, to the extent that he is able to mate, will transmit submission to male and female offspring

(However a submissive male and an aggressive female might be quite successful reproductively, and this doesn't really affect my argument)

 

similarly, a female can transmit both submission and aggression, depending on her own stock of these characteristics.

 

This has the following effect on the gene pool:

Aggression genes will continue to flourish in and through males.

Submission genes will continue to flourish in and through females.

The genetic material of inappropriately endowed individuals (submissive males and aggressive females will have a tendency to NOT to be transmitted, unless, as mentioned they happen to get together.

 

At equilibrium, at any point in time, the population will contain individuals who can be placed at any point in a two dimensional spectrum of aggressiveness versus gender. ie, the population can be said to have reached a Harvey-Weinberg equilibrium.

 

Since it is an equilibrium, you will always have submissive males, whose submission is transmitted to them through the successful mating strategies of their mothers, and aggressive females, whose aggression is transmitted to them by the equally successful strategies of their fathers.

 

So ends the first part of the argument. (Bear with me)

 

We have talked about things from the point of view of the genotype.

What about the phenotype?

 

Why do humans (and other organisms) reproduce at all?

The pleasure principle. Copulating is pleasurable.

It seems obvious to me (and I stand to be corrected) that it has to be intensely SEXUALLY pleasurable for an aggressive male to be aggressive, and for a submissive female to be submissive.

 

Even though it is inappropriate and reproductively disadvantageous, submissive males can experience pleasure through submission, and aggressive females obtain pleasure from aggression.

Another way to look at this is to say that sexual pleasure and aggressiveness are linked because this is the mechanism of successful mating strategies, but even though there are individuals who do NOT transmit their genes for the reasons given above, their aggressiveness and their access to sexual pleasure are still linked.

 

The inevitable consequence of this is that the phenotypic variety is infinite!

Isn't this what we see?

 

So what is the connection to S&M?

The mechanism by which the genes are transmitted is always PLEASURE.

A disconnect between pleasure and reproductive success can exist because it's "in the genes". For much the same reason, humans retain the appendix, which serves no useful function.

 

Let's look at some examples:

A maximally aggressive male may fantasise about and even commit rape.

He does this because it is pleasurable for him. He is "hard-wired" to be this way.

(His progeny will have a tendency to be similarly hard-wired.)

Rape is the ultimate aggression.

 

A maximally submissive female may fantasise and even go out of her way to submit to, rape.

Being raped is the ultimate submission.

submission in her case is also pleasurable, because it too is "hard-wired"

 

(Before I am accused of saying that women like being raped, I am not saying that. I am saying that there exist women who are way out on the edge of the bell-shaped curve for submission, as their rapists are way out on the other end)

 

This post would be way too long if I tried to discuss the various ways in which I think humans obtain sexual pleasure but the main point is that pleasure is the principle that connects aggression/submission and reproductive success.

 

I was interested by Vader's post above. Vader is right to be incensed by people who say his lifestyle is sick. His sexual orientation/proclivities and how he obtains pleasure through submission seems to me to be absolutely in accordance with my theory. He is totally normal. He may be out on the edge of that bell, but his responses are simply a hard-wired result of his genetic endowment. His pleasure in submission has no further reproductive value, BUT it was a reproductive advantage to FEMALES in his ancestry.

(I am not saying you are a sissy, by the way, Vader.)

 

I really think that there are very few sexual activities which are "abnormal." Even the most distressing and reprehensible sexual proclivities, like rape, are determined genetically, and can only be classified as "abnormal" by social convention. (BTW, I heartily approve of condemning rape. It may be his genes, but maybe we have a right to restrict his ability to transmit those genes to posterity.)

 

Krafft-Ebing was a German psychiatrist who published a descriptive text on sexual psychology called Psychopathia Sexualis in 1886. His classification was that any activity which increased reproductive success (like the rape of a young girl) was "normal", and only activities which do not enhance reproduction are "abnormal". By these criteria, homosexuality and anal sex could be classified as perversions, but Krafft-Ebing himself studied homosexuals in his own practice and concluded that homosexuals were genetically determined, and that homosexuality was NOT a mental illness or a perversion, -- quite a modern idea.

 

In 1886, Darwin's brilliant insight on Natural Selection was almost 30 years old, but It would have been another brilliant insight if K-E had connected sexual responses with Natural Selection. I don't think he quite got there!

 

I think this is a fascinating thread, and I hope I can engage in a further discussion of it either in the forum or by personal email.

My email is

spywriter@me.com

[biscuits]

Like a few others I have joined this forum specifically to comment on this thread. First of all I'd like to say that I have enjoyed reading it immensely and compliment the posters on their erudition. I am not a psychologist myself but my interest in the subject is of a more, well, "practical" nature.

 

Several posters have mentioned the correlation between intelligence and sexual deviance. I'd be interested in reading any material corroborating this information, if anyone happens to have any.

 

My lover occasionally poses the - mostly rhetorical - question "what the hell is wrong with me?". I think this kind of information would be very reassuring to her. Several links have already been posted, and they are interesting and helpful, but they don't seem to comment on intelligence at all. Can anyone help out?

[makiwa]

Bondage and domination are a game. Think of it as extended foreplay. I regard myself as a competent lover, and what keeps things interesting in the bedroom, is what keeps things interesting in the bedroom. I have made many women happy there and others unhappy. However EVERY single last one of them without exception has come back for more. Now, lets be straight about this. I love sex, and roughly 60%, or more, of the sex that I have is "straight" with no deviances. Loving and intimate. What I am not capable of is the "wham bam thank you ma'am" type. If it isn't coupled with extended intimacy then I might as well be playing with myself. I am a "bottom" by choice, but I assume the "top" role nearly as frequently just to change it up a bit. Almost without exception (there was one, but only one in all my encounters who didn't fall into this category), all my lovers needed to be trained to some greater or lessser degree. If only to align them with me, and to align me with them. This is a slow and careful process if it is to be done correctly and not rely solely on some animal instinct or have damaging or unpredictable results. My current wife has primarily assumed the dominant role because I have taught her how to do it and because, in her words, it turns her on to see me get turned on. We play off of each other. Making love to a sack of potatoes is no fun.

 

I could carry on this discourse forever, but I shan't as it could get tedious. However, I shall make brief comment on the submissive role and the role of pain within it. Then I'll keep an eye on this forum, and I'll be glad to arise from my repose in order to address further commentary on this topic.

 

Let me start again. I trained my current wife to take her role, and she has never experimented with deviant sex before me. We use deviant sex as a supplement to more orthodox methods.

 

While I am perfectly capable of making love missionary style, I am incapable of settling for a wham bam thank you ma'am approach. If I make love it's an event. I live for bedroom time and if it's not prolonged, then I'd sooner do without, and I am not beyond pleasuring myself to see my way through a dry spell. I have learned that bondage and domination serve a wonderful purpose in the bedroom as a supplement to more orthodox methods. They keep the act fresh and very much alive. They establish an almost drug like addiction through heightening the entire sexual experience. (endorphins) I fantasize, and I love it. It stretches the imagination and constantly gives me something to look forward to. These fantasies rarely materialize in the form originally envisioned. I respect that one might never be a "bottom" but there are instances where, with time and care, I think I could get almost anyone to take a submissive role. This does heighten the experience. Allow me to make some examples. A simple blindfold creates a world of the unexpected. No touch is adequately anticipated. Every touch is anticipated. Waiting mere seconds for the next, feels like an eternity. Every touch is a surprise. After a very short period - 10 minutes for me. - the other senses kick in. Touch, hearing, smell, taste, all take on a new life and become a never before realized focus. In a short period, I'll be able to track movements in the room through aroma, through body heat, even through the breezes that movements might create.

 

Light binding, such as wrapping in a sheet, would initially probably frighten a beginner. But it heightens the experience and it a relatively non-threatening method to start with, for a beginner. It would prevent the "sub" from touching me. This frustration tends to feel like foreplay extended right through the act. It would allow me to ravage the "sub", but without direct skin on skin contact. It would allow sexual intimacy but prohibit penetration. But b&d brings out out ability to place trust in our partner in a manner that we do not have opportunity to experience anywhere else. One must trust that although we may hurt, we will never harm. to this end, b&d must always be safe. A safe-word and a signal must be established and be second nature to both partners. It must be used whenever it is deemed appropriate and the other partner must be instantaneous in their reaction to it. That reaction should not be "unwind everything that has gone before", but instead "Stop what you are doing. Let's pause and think about the next step". I not uncommonly desire more that I can bear, and will use the safe word to catch my breath before moving on. Rarely do I request an "unwind" or say that I simply cannot go on. I try constantly to press for new heights. The variations are endless, and the temptation to redo what has done before is ever present, so progress to new things, new sexual adventures, by their very nature, tends to be slow. While I believe that I can be an excellent "top" because I think that I am sensitive to my partners needs by understanding my own, that doesn't make me mean, nor does it make me soft. I revel in being a "bottom" and being totally restrained, so that I am incapable of movement. Where my partner has total control and can use me as if I was just a household appliance. Or where my partner directs me with the sole intent of satisfying herself. Most good couples do at least this, but usually fail to communicate their desires effectively or be single minded enough to drive their partner to what they want. This leaves both partners frustrated and dissatisfied. Most couples are too scared to communicate effectively in one area where effective communication is most essential. No wonder sex-lives die. This is a goal that I have constantly strived for and never had a partner who could totally commit. There seems to be some mental barrier that prohibits my partners from confessing their deepest desires. I have several that have come very, very close, but none have been willing to open up 100%. This may be a personal thing, some resistance particular to me, or gender specific. My range of experience has not provided me with enough observations to support a hypothesis.

 

There are rules that pertain. For instance, if I am the bottom, then I am only allowed to address the top as Ma'am. mistress etc, No first names are allowed during any controlling phase without permission, as this detracts from the authority of the top. Similarly, the top should not address the bottom by any endearing terms or by their first name unless the goal is to sever that authority. There are times for that. B&d is a vehicle to enhance the experience. Not to supersede it. The top is not responsible for dreaming up all the scenarios. The tops' role is to see that he/she is totally satisfied and that the bottom never gets exactly what they want. There is a common joke about this, but there is a measure of truth to it too. For instance, the top could ask what the bottom wants. For simplicity, lets call you top, and me bottom. I would then tell you, in no uncertain terms, my current fantasy. Your role, if you chose to use my fantasy, and there's nothing compelling you to do that, as your fantasies are every bit as important as mine, would be to ensure that I never get exactly what I want. You may give me less and leave me begging for more. Or you may elect to drive me past what I initially intended, into an area that may be considered within my head and yours, as taboo.

 

Example: I might be requesting to lick you and then penetrate you. Simple enough: But so many variations on that theme are possible. You might allow me but the briefest touch of my tongue and then not again. Thus making me crazy as I came so tantalizingly close to what I asked for. You might force* me to lick you to orgasm, thus psychologically robbing me of idea that your orgasm would be caused by my penetration, and only by my penetration. You might, restrain me in a chastity device, thus preventing my erection, but satisfying yourself nonetheless. You might deny me altogether. At the extreme end of the scale you might compel me to penetrate you first and then clean you afterwards with my tongue (this is known a fletching - look it up on urbandictionary.com).This last act is definitely seen as taboo, but is not as weird as one might think, as it's just turning a "blowjob" on it's head and delivering the 'product" back to the producer.

 

Whatever transpires, it should stem from a fantasy and lead to others. Partners absolutely have to share their fantasies. Their deepest darkest desires, and never discount them, but merely play into them as they see fit, to some lesser or greater degree. The force* that I mentioned earlier is a relative term. If the bottom doesn't want to be forced into anything, the safe word can quickly emerge. On the other hand, force could include (in that particular instance) smothering or even a few light strikes with a whip. If it's more than the bottom can take, then the safe word is used, and the scenario reconsidered.

 

The use of pain: Pain is delicious to me. It can be a punishment, a reward, or even in itself a goal or a means to something else. To me it is the ultimate commitment that I can make to my partner. Lets explore. Punishment. Premature ejacuation - at least premature as far as my partner is concerned, or maybe as far as I am concerned. Punishment through pain or distress (talk about distress later) can train the bottom to behave and react as intended. I know of couples where he can literally ejaculate on her command. Without a single touch. Or not ejaculate no matter how much he wants to, without her instruction or permission. Pavlov – stick that in your pipe and smoke it. The power that he has granted to her, over him, is immense. What is sexier than that? And believe me when I say that he has granted that power to her. She didn’t take it, without his consent.

 

Pain as a reward: Sometimes the bottom wants to do something but their pschycie (sic) tells them that it is taboo. Once they perform the act they can be rewarded with light pain. This reinforces that it is taboo, but hasn't prohibited them from doing it. They will move forward wanting to be doing that again, and expect, even request punishment for doing something that is so inherently naughty.

 

Finally my favorite: pain as a vehicle. If I can experience excruciating pain and yet continue to pleasure my partner, then I have shown my commitment to her pleasure and satisfaction. I am willing, even eager, to satisfy her no matter how hard it may be for me. If I can experience pain and yet orgasm myself, through the pain, that is a clear display of how irresistible she is to me. I know this seems all a little twisted and demented, but the psychology is 100% sound.

 

The bonds that are formed during this are so intimate, and so powerful, that no equivalent exists within our culture. This is an exhibition, perhaps the ultimate expression, of trust. And trust is a cornerstone for any lasting relationship.

 

Let me cover distress quickly. This is typically expressed by creating an expectation, and then not fulfilling it. For instance (me as bottom) in a blindfold and strapped to a bed, or a chair. She drives me to erection and perhaps herself to an orgasm, And then stops. Perhaps even leaves the room, Watches tv, reads a book, has a cup of coffee, and leaves me right where I am. On occasion she might brush by just so that I know that she is still there and INTENTIONALLY ignoring me. Intentionally not giving me what she knows, as that stage, I so desperately want. She might repeat this process more than once. Net result, she has me begging her for relief. Begging her to allow me inside her. Lusting for her to the point of dementia.

 

Should someone wish, as I said before, to continue this thread, I’ll be glad to oblige. One final note, before I adjourn from this colloquy. True “sexiness” is in the head. Rampant lust might be hormone driven, but typically lacks sustainability. We, as creatures who have risen above base instinct, are endowed with the ability to use sex for fun. We so often stop having sex because it is no longer fun. The intellect provides for us, the ability to extend that fun relentlessly, and I’d hope remorselessly, until we drain our imaginations.

[Para15]

Joined to comment on this, like everyone else. I am a female masochist and am currently majoring in - guess what - psychology. (I think that I will make a good psychologist because I've actually have experienced many of the things that people go to psychologists for... concerns about sexuality being amongst them.) What I'm going to post is something I actually saved to Microsoft Word. As a masochist, I typed it to try and explain the unexplainable to people who don't understand... which is quite a few people on this thread.

 

 

 

I am a sexual and physical masochist. I love it. I will never see a psychiatrist for it.

 

I do not consider myself a ‘lesser person’ to anybody. I submit only to those who I know respect me as a person and recognize that I have dignity and self-esteem. I am healthy, I am one of the happiest people I know. I live life to the fullest. I have never been abused or neglected.

 

I have a disorder called trichotillomania, which causes me to want to pull my hair out. It is not related to masochism. I hate trichotillomania. I love masochism. Being familiar with a disorder, you can imagine that I can probably tell what is ‘disorder’ and what is my own free will. Masochism is my choice. It is not a disorder.

 

Is masochism a twisted, whacked out paradox? It certainly is. It’s f*cked up. Humans, by nature, are wired to avoid pain and seek pleasure. I like pleasure, too, but I certainly find pleasure in pain.

 

In its more mild forms, like light whipping and scratching, pain (for me) is an exquisite and profound experience. It’s pleasurable, and it makes me feel alive. It’s not that it doesn’t hurt – of course it hurts. But for a reason that even I can’t quite grasp, I desire it. I like sensation in general, including pain.

 

At its most intense, pain is no longer enjoyable physically, but the challenge of it is enjoyable mentally. Pain, the way my inner masochist looks at it, is a means to challenge oneself and one’s reactions to extreme situations. Being able to trust your partner with your body, being able to endure things that most people would never want to try to endure… it lets you find yourself – and your relationship, for that matter – on a very deep level. You get to know things about yourself in ways that most people can’t comprehend.

 

You see, as far as that aspect of it, it’s not just about being tough or pain-tolerant. When you push yourself beyond your limits, it’s about discovering your own strength of character. It’s about being strong and resolute, for your partner and/or yourself. It’ll build your confidence in that mindset, so that you’ll be able to set your mind to being resolute and mentally sound not only in the context of BDSM, but in life.

 

It’s a means to self-discovery, self-pride, strength in relationships, and a fuller life. And, if you don’t want to look into it that deep, look at it for what it is: enjoyment of something that few others can find enjoyment in. It’s one more way for us to find pleasure, one more way that 95 (or whatever) percent of the population doesn’t have.

 

Live your life to the fullest. Don’t be afraid of your own desires; embrace them, otherwise you truly will never know what you missed. And don’t let your mind fall into the trap that you are any less of a person just because you are a masochist, or that you are sick. Don’t be ashamed. Don’t repress yourself. You have a right to your happiness and your life and your dignity as much as anyone else.

[Moontanman]

I am more into Dominance and submission but I do understand the lifestyle of S/M as well. D/s is not a 24/7 thing to me but it can be a very intense way to enjoy an evening or a week end. I am not interested in a woman who needs to be my slave on a leash 24/7 but as an occasional play/game it can be intense and very satisfying for all involved. Pain can be apart of D/s but it is more about finding ways to take your submissive to places in her mind she wouldn't or couldn't go by herself. Bondage and humiliation can be a big part of D/s and the small pains that allow the enjoyment of sex to be magnified. I once had a submissive explain it to me as going to a horror movie and participating instead of just watching. You know it's just a game but you allow your self to get into it and just like a good horror film the danger feels quite real even though deep down you know it's just a game

 

Fire cupping Dominant massage hot wax Fun fun fun! But best if only done as the occasional treat, no need to make it routine

[embunr]

So, as this is a science forum, here's a theory on the origins of sexual masochism:

 

http://www.embraceun...ity.com/theory/

 

Does anyone recognise themselves in the nine predictions at the end?

[iNow]

This thread needs more photos.

[Moontanman]

Yes, I agree!

[Marat]

I had a girlfriend who was into S&M and had all the requisite paraphrenalia, but I only discovered that after our involvement began. She was nice enough not to insist that I play along with her interests in that respect once she found that I was obviously not very interested.

 

Her theory about why people find S&M pleasurable was exactly what some previous posters here have mentioned: In the games that S&M enthusiasts play, the issue of how much each person in the partnership trusts the other to limit the infliction of pain on a trapped partner is highlighted, and this is somehow found to establish an interesting theme for the emotional involvement. What puzzles me about that is why concerns about trust should be so intense within an established relationship?

 

Unfortunately, from the unreliable and utterly untrustworthy way my girlfriend later turned out to behave, I discovered to my own misfortune why trust was such a central theme of relationships for her.

[jerbee]

Causes of Sadism and Masochism

There are a number of reasons commonly given for why a sadist or masochist finds the practice of S&M enjoyable, and the answer is largely dependent on the individual. For some, taking on a role of compliance or helplessness offers a form of therapeutic escape; from the stresses of life, from responsibility, or from guilt. For others, being under the power of a strong, controlling presence may evoke the feelings of safety and protection associated with childhood. They likewise may derive satisfaction from earning the approval of that figure. A sadist, on the other hand, may enjoy the feeling of power and authority that comes from playing the dominant role, or receive pleasure vicariously through the suffering of the masochist. It is poorly understood, though, what ultimately connects these emotional experiences to sexual gratification, or how that connection initially forms.

 

It is usually agreed on by psychologists that experiences during early sexual development can have a profound effect on the character of sexuality later in life. Sadomasochistic desires, however, seem to form at a variety of ages. Some individuals report having had them before puberty, while others do not discover them until well into adulthood. According to one study, the majority of male sadomasochists (53%) developed their interest before the age of 15, while the majority of females (78%) developed their interest afterwards. Like sexual fetishes, sadomasochism can be learned through conditioning—in this context, the repeated association of sexual pleasure with an object or stimulus.

 

 

Sadomasochism

Sadism and masochism (sadomasochism) are two of the behaviors in a group of sexual problems called paraphilias. Paraphilias are associated with sexual arousal in response to stimuli not associated with normal sexual behavior patterns.

 

 

Definition of Sadomasochism

Sadism is the sexual pleasure or gratification in the infliction of pain and suffering upon another person.

 

The counterpart of sadism is masochism, the sexual pleasure or gratification of having pain or suffering inflicted upon the self, often consisting of sexual fantasies or urges for being beaten, humiliated, bound, tortured, or otherwise made to suffer, either as an enhancement to or a substitute for sexual pleasure.

 

Sadists enjoy inflicting pain whether or not it is sexual in nature. Masochists enjoy receiving pain, which, again, may or may not be sexual. Dominance and submission is a way of looking the the sadistic-masochistic distinction, a power dynamic rather than a set of acts. Not all masochists are submissive, and not all submissives enjoy pain. Not all sadists are dominant, and not all who enjoy dominating others are sadists. There is frequently a strong emotional aspect to the sexual desires, taking the form of a need for domination (to control another) or submission (the desire or to be controlled) as opposed to a simple desire for pain (which is technically known as algolagnia). The words sadistic and masochistic are now commonly used to describe personality traits in an emotional, rather than sexual sense.

 

 

Paraphilias and Sadomasochism

Sexual sadism

 

The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR), the prevailing resource for diagnostic criteria of paraphilias, describes the diagnostic criteria for sexual sadism are as follows:

 

The patient reports recurrent and intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies involving the act (real, not simulated) in which the psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation) of one person is sexually arousing to another person. Symptoms must be present for at least 6 months. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors cause significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. Sadistic fantasies or acts may involve activities such as dominance, restraint, blindfolding, beating, pinching, burning, electrical shock, rape, cutting, stabbing, strangulation, torture, mutilation, or killing. Sadistic sexual fantasies are likely present in childhood. Onset of sadistic activities commonly occurs by early adulthood, and it tends to be chronic. Some individuals do not increase the severity of their sadistic acts; however, severity of the sadistic acts does usually increase over time.

 

No clear lines divide sexual sadism and sexual masochism, and the predispositions are often interchangeable. The conditions may coexist in the same individual, sometimes in association with other paraphilias. This relationship is supported by the finding that those who entertain masochistic fantasies also engage in sadistic fantasies.

 

Sadism involves causing physical or psychological pain or suffering to another person. As long as it occurs with a consenting partner, it can be argued that sexual sadism is not considered to be a psychological disorder. It is certainly considered a disorder when it causes unhappiness to the person with it, causes problems with work, social setting, or family, or when there is potential danger to another individual.

 

Like some masochists, some sadists require the pain or humiliation in order to function sexually. Others may engage in more typical sexual activities at some times and sadistic activities at other times. Sadists often seek out masochists as sexual partners. The sexual arousal in sadism is directly related to the suffering of the other person.

 

Some acts involve actual physical violence, including cutting, burning, or beating. Other acts involve domination, such as making the other person crawl or keeping him or her in a cage. Still other acts involve humiliation.

 

Sexual masochism

 

The essential features of this disorder as described by the DSM-IV-TR include the following:

 

The patient reports recurrent and intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies involving the act (real, not simulated) of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer. Symptoms must be present for at least 6 months. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors cause significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. Masochistic acts commonly involve a wide range of activities, such as restraint, blindfolding, beating, electrical shock, cutting, piercing, and humiliation (e.g., being urinated or defecated on, forced to bark, verbally abused, forced to cross-dress). Some sexual masochists inflict pain through self-mutilation, and some engage in group activity or use services provided by prostitutes.

 

Hypoxyphilia is a dangerous form of masochism that involves sexual arousal by oxygen deprivation achieved by means of chest compression, noose, ligature, plastic bag, mask, or chemicals. Oxygen deprivation may be accomplished alone or with a partner. Data from the United States, England, Australia, and Canada indicate that 1-2 deaths per million population are reported each year.

 

Some sexually masochistic males also exhibit fetishism, transvestite fetishism, or sexual sadism. Masochistic sexual fantasies are likely present in childhood. Masochistic activities commonly begin by early adulthood, tend to be chronic, and the same act is generally repeated. Some individuals increase the severity of the act over time, which may lead to injury or death.

 

Sadomasochism

 

Sadism and masochism, often interrelated (one person obtaining sadistic pleasure by inflicting pain or suffering on another person who thereby obtains masochistic pleasure), are collectively known as S&M or sadomasochism. BDSM is a short-hand acronym for many subdivisions of the culture: (B&D) bondage and discipline, (D&S) domination and submission, (S&M) sadism and masochism. The term BDSM describes the quite common activities between consenting adults that contain sadistic and masochistic elements. Many behaviors such as erotic spanking, tickling and love-bites that many people think of only as "rough" sex also contain elements of sado-masochism.

 

[lemur]

Masochism may produce pleasure for some people because hurting them excites their partner and the partner's excitement turns them on.

[Esinem]

I think it is rather odd that people think bondage neccessarily equals SM. BDSM = Bondage Domination Sadism Masochism. These are different but sometimes overlapping. Cetainly, rope bondage can be entirely sensual. I'd highly recommend reading a thesis by a good friend of mine Sense & Shibari

 

I'd suggest more of you enjoy pain that realise it. Do you ever/enjoy biting, scratching, playful slaps during sex? Like hot and spicey food? Well, isn't that chemically induced pain? ;-) Pian kicks of pleasure giving endorphines, the body's natural opiate-like chemical.

 

 

IMHO, we all have relics of our more primitive past when less consensual sex was the norm. In my, anecdotal, experience the male pain threshold drops dramtically immediately after orgasm and many women get turned on by rough (consensual!) sex. I believe the reason for the drop off in male pain threshold is because he must not be deterred from his biological duty by female resistance, i.e. procreation, but once achieved Mother Nature turns the protective mechanism back on so to prevent damage and preserve him to impregnate the next. The female response to this resistance is increased lubrication etc. to facilitate the act. I'd be fascinated to see if this thoery could be verified by those more knowlegeable than myself.

 

As somebody who makes their living teaching and performing rope bondage, I suspect I might have a better insight than those who merely read about it. Feel free to Google my screen name but best not do it at work ;-)

[Dissily Mordentroge]

I think it is rather odd that people think bondage necessarily equals SM. BDSM = Bondage Domination Sadism Masochism. These are different but sometimes overlapping. Cetainly, rope bondage can be entirely sensual. I'd highly recommend reading a thesis by a good friend of mine Sense & Shibari

 

I'd suggest more of you enjoy pain that realise it. Do you ever/enjoy biting, scratching, playful slaps during sex? Like hot and spicey food? Well, isn't that chemically induced pain? ;-) Pian kicks of pleasure giving endorphines, the body's natural opiate-like chemical.

 

 

IMHO, we all have relics of our more primitive past when less consensual sex was the norm. In my, anecdotal, experience the male pain threshold drops dramtically immediately after orgasm and many women get turned on by rough (consensual!) sex. I believe the reason for the drop off in male pain threshold is because he must not be deterred from his biological duty by female resistance, i.e. procreation, but once achieved Mother Nature turns the protective mechanism back on so to prevent damage and preserve him to impregnate the next. The female response to this resistance is increased lubrication etc. to facilitate the act. I'd be fascinated to see if this thoery could be verified by those more knowlegeable than myself.

 

As somebody who makes their living teaching and performing rope bondage, I suspect I might have a better insight than those who merely read about it. Feel free to Google my screen name but best not do it at work ;-)

I thought I had a passing understanding of bondage and S & M altough I've never been involved much in either. Recently Ive taken up with another man, in fact have to confess I've fallen in love with him, whatever that means. My sexuality has always been vanilla active and passive gay but my new lover tells me he wants me to tie him up and have my way with him. At first the thought was exiting but when he told me his fantasy during such acts was one of being raped I went into a spin. I can't understand how I'm supposed to be raping someone when they've voluntarily asked me to play that role. Seems a contradiction. Still, I,m very surprised to be turned on by the idea of tying someone up and availing myself of their vulnerability as such an urge has never gotten near my consciousness until now. So, I'm happy to oblige with the ropes but the role playing of raping someone still goes against everything I am. Am I being a politically correct prude? A quick answer please, I'm staying overnight at the new man's place tomorrow night. And yes, I know over-intellectualising these things can be pointless but I can't help trying to figure out what the hell it means to be voluntarily raped.