How to make penicillin

[insanerob23]

Thanks for the history lesson man.

[SkepticLance]

To Nicks

 

A lot of these questions depend on what equipment and skills are available post-holocaust. I have been assuming some kind of return to medieval situation, which makes antibiotic manufacture a real case of 'by guess or by God.'

 

In the course of my work, I often get given samples of various moulds, and get asked what they are. I check them microscopically, which is good enough to derive the genus (most of the time). However, if the species is required, I send the sample off to a laboratory in the USA, which has proper nucleic acid sequencing equipment. A few species of mould are more or less identifiable under the microscope, but even for these few, it is tricky.

 

I remember about 25 years ago working on Trichoderma viride for the timber industry, where it is a problem infection on wood. We were puzzled by some research results that showed that this mould in Finland was easily controlled with methylene bisthiocyanate. The NZ Trichoderma viride, though, laughed at this chemical.

 

That was before good nucleic acid sequencing technology was available. Since then, the answer has been apparent. What we thought was all Trichoderma viride is not actually one species. There are about 100 different species, all of which were originally classified as Trichoderma viride.

 

The point here, is that without advanced technology, when you cultivate a mould, you simply do not know what mould it is. It might be something well able to produce penicillin in quantity, or it might produce nothing. Far better to obtain a sample of purified Penicillium chrysogenum from a specialty laboratory supplies source, and stay with it.

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Well, Skeptic, I never intended to actually have to identify the mold unless I had to. I'd be happy to pay the $15 and have a guaranteed sample sent to me.

 

If I had to start from scratch, I would fail.

 

Thank you for the anecdotes, even if not perfectly relevant, I learn from things like that.

 

Would you want nucleic sequencing equipment even for a project like the one I am suggesting? Is that even available in prices less than tens of thousands?

[Deleted]

I find this thread extremely interesting as I have wondered myself how I could manufacture necessary medications in a SHTF scenario.

 

In particular, I would like to learn to manufacture Penicillin, Erythromycin (for those allergic to Penicillin), and IV fluids. These are (IMHO) the most critical and have the shortest shelf life.

 

As part of my philosophy (that would be being ready for a SHTF scenario), I have taken all the classes offered by the Red Cross, have become a certified EMT Medic, and have been increasing my knowledge in microbiology.

 

For years (over 20), I have brewed my own beer, wine, and mead using a small (well equipped) lab I have set up. I culture, grow, and store yeasts. I do my own testing (myself and kids) for strep A when it appears prudent.

 

With that all said let's talk..

 

As for the equipment at hand...

 

Assuming that our post-holocaust world has not been subject to a nuclear explosion and, more importantly, an EMP blast, all of our equipment should work just fine. This of course assumes that it is acquired pre-holocaust. If you believe that an EMP is possible, ensure that all your electronic equipment is wrapped in aluminum foil and then in a tight storage box.

 

Next problem would be electricity. Here again a little foresight is helpful. Personally, I am nearly self sufficient with solar panels and wind power. I also have a small "human powered" (i.e. a stationary bike hooked to a generator) generator that works quite well.

 

My lab is in my basement which does not flood as my house sits on an old gravel pit and remains at a quit cool and constant temp year round.

 

So, with all the correct equipment (and maybe even a sequencer if a deal I have with the local college goes through) I am ready to learn the fine art of growing, culturing, dosing, and storing my own antibiotics. Unfortunately though, I have yet to find a detailed procedure.

 

Since I live only a few minutes from MSU (Michigan State University), I believe that my next step will be to take some appropriate classes in microbiology.

 

Wow, this post has become much longer than anticipated. Anyway Nicks, I really am interested in your quest and I believe it is very possible. As I learn more myself, I will post it here for your edification and general pedagogy.

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

At least for penicillin, there is a source for your original culture, but I've had no luck with variant antibiotics.

 

I'd be happy if someone could just tell me what equipment is even necessary. Some things are obvious to even someone like me (autoclave would be really good, tanks for growth... should these be stainless steel, plastic, what? Equipment to monitor and regulate temperature, etc) but other things I'm less sure of.

 

In some ways, you want a basic biological lab, but for other things, it's more of a chemistry lab. How do you filter out the antibiotic from the growth medium? Is there any way to purify it? Can these be made into tablets, or is it liquid only?

 

Then, you almost need to keep a reference culture of staph with which to test against. And how in the hell can do you do that without agar? Even for a lab, it's not equipment that will last forever... they use consumable/disposable items like everything else.

 

And, if you're want antibiotics of several varieties, you might as well add the GM yeast that produces insulin to your wishlist. Though how likely it is that you could acquire that...

[Callie]

Fungi are tricky beasties! because they are spore formers they pretty much contaminate everything around you. Everything.

 

Even if you did manage to successfully culture Penicillium I honestly don't believe that in a home set up you would be able to stop it getting contaminated with other fungi. Contamination by fungi can be an awful problem even in proper labs with all the proper equipment etc.

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Once I have all the equipment I'll need, I'll still need to practice regularly, to have any chance of making the stuff.

 

Which leads me to a good question, what do you do with the products of the practice? Flushing it down a toilet is a bad idea... that leads to bacterial resistance problems. I think you'd almost need some way of incinerating the antibiotics.

[toadyfinan]

Okay, I know this is very off topic, but

 

a) why do you expect that doomsday will come?.... Oh wait, never mind.

b)what do you do with penicillin?

 

sorry for lack of knowledge, only in 8th grade.

Find all this fasciating.

when doomsday comes, I'm going to find you. If you don't produce something that will eat me alive.

Edited October 15, 2008 by toadyfinan
I wanted to add something, sorry.

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

toady,

 

Human beings are naturally flawed, and while we were fortunate enough to have all the resources that would be required to go to the stars and survive as a species for millions, if not billions, of years, we've been doing some really foolish things. Our access to cheap and easy energy is about to come to an end, at about the same time people are overreacting to environmental concerns. If we do not find a solution (fusion) or at least accept the interim solution (nuclear... though this would be tough, it doesn't translate to fuel easily or efficiently), we will have to make do with inferior sources.

 

That would likely be a death spiral. You don't keep cranking out the steel and concrete if you're waiting for the clouds to pass so you can have electricity.

 

As for penicillin, you're aware of what it does, right? It's a chemical that is only mildy toxic to humans (if even that), but extremely toxic to bacteria. For this reason (and a few others), it is used to treat bacterial infections. Without it and similar drugs, many people would now die that don't.

 

If you can't make it yourself, and if there is a doomsday, you'll have to go without it. And that's unacceptable to me. Even small cuts can kill sometimes, if not treated.

 

I would practice making it, but I wouldn't use it. Not now, anyway... why use homemade stuff when the commercial variety is superior? Still, I'd have to dispose of what I made in the meantime... and flushing it down the toilet isn't a good idea. It's possible that it could lead to resistance in some bacteria in a sewage plant somewhere, that would later come back to harm someone else. So it would need to be destroyed by incineration, I think.

 

Only if "doomsday" ever came, would I use it, and only then after exhausting any stockpiles of the superior commercial variety.

 

It may be a little silly of me, but I want to be prepared. The world that the previous generation has left for you is rather grim, in my opinion.

[Lovecraft]

Upon reading this thread I thought perhaps you are thinking too much in the "Now" and how things are currently done. Penicillin and some of the other "cillins" are in common use now because:

 

1) They are effective and mostly safe (some are allergic but there is a wide safety associated with ussing it -- and if a reaction happens and it's caught quickly, it is easily treated with antihistamines)

2) they are easy to produce and culture/purify IF you have the proper equipment and can make it in mass quantities

3) are cheap to produce

4) are good profit because it takes specialized equipment and are cheap to produce (i.e. you can't really make a home remedy of it work by merely eating molded bread)

 

So... what did people do before penicillin? Were there any antibiotics out there that didn't require modern manufacturing facilities to produce or did everyone who got a staph infection just die?

 

There were, and there ARE other antibiotics that are non fungal based and that you COULD make and use if needed. In fact, there are also antibiotic herbs (some you may find shockingly common) that when taken in normal ways are not antibiotic but when taken in proper dosages are very antibiotic.

 

First, why not consider sulfa drugs? These were the antibiotics used pre penicillin and used only rarely now-- there is a greater chance of allergic reaction to sulfa drugs than to penicillin -- but hey, if every day is a fight for survival, the risk of death due to infection outweighs possible allergic reaction. The manufacture of sulfonamide can be done using pre WWI technolgy and should be able to be done using a simple chemistry set. Sulfonamide had been used for years prior to 1906 for making dyes. It can be kept as a stable powder for local application to wounds and can be taken internally.

 

I'd probably go with sulfa drugs in the doom's day scenario and then only as a last resort. My FIRST line of defense (well offense really since I'd be attacking invading organisms) would be herbal.

 

There are several herbs which are natural antibiotics when used properly. A very effective one is garlic. Yep, garlic. Not food flavoring quantities but 3, 4 or 5 cloves of the stuff taken several times a day. Garlic contains a natural sulfa drug like stuff, as do many onions and radishes. I have treated myself with garlic in high doses to combat infection with great success (though because your body will clear itself of some of the sulphur through the lungs and skin, you WILL be stinky while using garlic as an antibiotic.)

 

Some of the older rememdies for various ailments are effective, and in some cases more desirably effective with less side effects than synthesized or refined modern drugs. By more desirably effective I mean they get the job done without as much collateral damage even though less potent than refined or synthesized drugs. And, of course, I mean also in the scenario you write of -- the doom's day one where you do not have the safety nets of hospitals, and doctors to monitor and adjust your treatment.

 

There is another form of antibiotic not really used in the USA but that is used in eastern europe and that is bacteriophages. Virii that attack bacteria. I imagine, since these little buggers are everywhere that bacteria are present, it would not be too difficult to culture them, probably less difficult than growing penicillin and using them (especially for wounds and abcesses) along with herbs or other drugs.

 

Someone also mentioned atropine, I believe you can find this in foxglove. Most of the synthesized drugs we use today were first refined from herbs until a way was figured out how to synth them chemically. What we have today, that we didn't have in medeval times is knowledge of what chemicals treat disease effectivly and WHY/HOW they do it... also, we have indices of plants and chemicals contained within them. THIS knowledge can save you from many diseases in a doomsday scenario and allow you to use herbs effectivly for treating disease (and in a way that is most likely safer than taking refined drugs).

[SkepticLance]

Lovecroft

I would prefer you had not made that post. Too much there that can mislead.

 

Good antibiotics are NOT easy to make in pure form. It took many years of research before the first penicillin tablets were available, and they were nowhere near as good as later versions.

 

Herbs are NOT antibiotic. Many are antiseptic, which is entirely a different thing. They work only at the site of a wound, and only on a fresh wound. Once infection is established, they are ineffective. And they are not as good as modern antiseptics.

 

Garlic as antibiotic?????? I know a lot of fad foodists make that claim, but it is a very shakey claim. Garlic is probably a very healthy food, apart from its severely anti-social effects, but as far as I know, it is NOT an antibiotic, and it will not cure illness. When you took it and got better, it was probably time that healed, not garlic!

 

Bacteriophages are NOT easy to cultivate. No virus is. They require living organisms, not culture media to live on. The value of bacteriophages as antibiotic substitutes is still a matter of research. It is likely that they will work only under special limited conditions.

 

And avoid atropine except as used by a fully qualified physician.

[Lovecraft]

By culturing bacterophages I mean in a culture of live bacteria. I still think they'd be easy to culture in this manner (kinda like culturing yogurt).

 

Some herbs are antibiotic when ingested. Garlic is one of them. It will KILL bacteria when taken properly. I certainly don't advise the use of it for anything major when prescription antibiotics are available. But in a "Oh hell I'm out here alone in the wilderness and this thorn prick is getting infected and ooo hey wild garlic !" way it's much better than nothing. (It'll also work as as a vermifuge) Garlic contains allicin, alliin and ajoene among other substances.

 

By antibiotic, I mean antibacterial (either outright killing it or inhibiting it's growth)-- via topical or ingestible form. Garlic contains antibacterial agents that can work in this manner. To me, that is an antibiotic. It is not merely antiseptic or astringent as say alcohol or witchhazel are. Garlic can also be used prophylacticly to bolster a bodies defense against infection to begin with (as many of the sulphur containing foods seem to be able to do).

 

And no, it certainly isn't like pharmaceutical grade antibiotics. (Garlic) but in a pinch would be far better to use than nothing at all as it's not going to cause harm in the required doses (by required doses I don't mean cooking style doses I mean LOTS of garlic) unless one has stomach problems with it.

 

As for sulfa drugs -- they should be pretty easy to make.

 

Medicinal drugs are not all that hard to make once one is identified and a method is discovered. (This is why there is a problem with meth labs all over-- it's not rocket science when following a recipe -- the hard part of things is the discovery and subsequent development of methods of refinement)

 

People have been using herbs and essential oils for thousands of years some with efficacy for specific ailments others with none or for treating the wrong ailments (mostly, I think due to irrational ideas about herbs like "Oh that leaf looks like a diseased lung, let's give it to people with bronchitis"). Modern scientific methods have allowed the systematic study of compounds within herbs and how they work against disease, this in turn led to finding methods to synthesize the chemicals that were once (an in many cases still are) farmed and refined from the plants themselves. Discoveries weren't made so much because someone just had a lucky guess as to what a chemical might do (well except in the case of sulfa drugs, that kinda was an educated guess -- dye that binds well to the proteins of wool might also bind well to the proteins of bacteria... nice guess) but because a certain plant would have some sort of effect when administered (foxglove once given to people that suffered heart attacks became the drugs digoxin and digitoxin still used today for treating heart problems)

 

But getting back to garlic, compunds within garlic are currently being studied as antibiotics to combat some of the bacteria that are resistant to other antibiotics. Garlic as it is, according to Wright State University is about one percent as potent as penicillin. That's potency, not effectivness--you'd have to take more garlic.

 

Here is a quote from one website, but I didn't find references to the research:

"Researchers have compared the effectiveness of garlic with that of commercial prescription antibiotics. The result is often that garlic can be more effective as a broad spectrum antibiotic. However if a particular bacterium or virus is being treated a more specifically targeted antibiotic if available could be a more effective treatment than garlic."

 

And garlic tastes good in Italian and Cajun foods But it loses it's antibacterial qualities if cooked.

 

I want to make something very clear-- and I feel SkepticLance's post was made in concern for the same reason (beside's his point about too much that can be misleading -- upon rereading my previous post, I see he is correct, much of it can be very misleading if taken to mean that just herbs can replace modern antibiotics-- they can't)

 

I do NOT advocate the use of herbs or homemade medicines for infections or other things which would more safely be tended to by a doctor or other medical professional. I only bring this up in the scenario of a mad max like hypothetical world where doctors, and pharmaceuticals are not available.

 

ALSO many normal spices, herbs and food items while not toxic in normal food preparation quantities can be very toxic just over the edge of doses which work medicinally. Before modern pharmacies existed, many apothecaries killed their patients accidentally with herbal preparations because one can never be certain of the amount of a given substance in a particular plant cutting. No one should harvest herbs for medicinal reasons without first arming themselves with the proper knowledge of the plants and the possible toxic effects AND without antidotes at hand. (Personally I don't believe antibiotics should be administered without having an antidote to allergic reaction or other side effects handy, but alas, they are -- everyone should probably have an anaphylaxis kit)

 

And don't leave your health to chance. We are not in a mad max world, if you have an infection, fever, deep puncture wound or broken bone, see a doctor.

 

And yes, avoid atropine (unless you are hit by sarin or some other nerve agent).

 

But if you wake up one morning and the world has gone to hell, there is no where to get medicine and you don't happen to be a pharmacologist, chemist and physician, plant garlic, purple coneflower (echinaccea angustifolia), wax myrtle (bay berry) and meadowsweet or willow.

[cameron marical]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess the question for me is; is there any sort of anti bacterial, or better yet a herbal remedy that can help the body overcome or prevent infection in the wild. Something that could be gathered in the wild and made or something that has these qualities. For instance if I were to get a compound fracture in the wild a way to prevent infection before i dress it? or a deep cut ect.

 

you can make soap. you can make it by using animal fat and boiling it and some other stuff i cant remember exactly. google it{or yahoo} if you want to know how to do it. its cool.

[SkepticLance]

To Lovecroft

Your latest post is somewhat better than the earlier one, and clarifies essential points. Let me add a couple of things.

 

First : it is still way too early to make antibiotic claims for garlic or garlic extracts. There is some promising research, but we still have no data showing it can act as an antibiotic in the human body.

 

Second : Herbs. The vast majority of herbal remedies have simply not been studied using good science sufficiently to say whether they are effective or not. The ones that have been so studied mostly turn out to be useless, and a few actually quite toxic. There is a small number that prove to be useful (a tiny percentage of the total being sold), such as willow bark - which led to aspirin; foxglove - which led to digitalis; arteminisin - which led to a new malaria treatment. As a general rule, though, I would urge extreme caution with herbs. Unless there is good scientific data to support their use (rare), they are more likely to harm you than help.

 

Good scientific data does not mean a single study. Good scientific data means at least 20 randomised, double blind, placebo controlled, clinical trials, which give results that are statistically very solid.

 

Third : essential oils. Apart from the placebo effect, there is absolutely no good scientific data to show they are any use at all. However, they can be good placebo's, simply because many smell very nice. If you make the air smell more pleasant, as well as lying to people by saying it is healing, that may make people think it is doing them good, and the mental effect takes over.

 

Warning : placebos do not work on serious illnesses. They do not combat infections, or cancer, or serious other illnesses. They work most effectively on ailments that are not at all serious, and especially psychosomatic ills.

[Robby D]

Really interesting reading this thread. I was going to try and grow/make penicillan but I think I will give that a miss after what I've read.

 

Lots of people seem to be asking about natural alternatives. I've come across one that has had a some medical testing and that seems to be excellent at killing bacteria. It is called Manuka honey and is only available from New Zealand.

 

Bees graze on manuka or tea tree plants and then produce their honey. Honey has good antiseptic properties anyway but manuka honey has an added factor that kills bacteria.

 

Scepti I'd like to hear if you've heard of manuka honey and if so what do you think? Reading your posts I'd say you know a great deal more of these things than I do!

[MustKnow]

lol, i just watched a movie where some guy made penecillian from moldy food he got out of the trash then he put it in water let it soak, poured it into a cup add some sugar and drank it lol.

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

I hope that my own comments here haven't been as wild and unconsidered as some.

 

I do not (generally) believe in the efficacy of herbal or folk remedies. I do not believe that antibiotics or any other useful medicine could be cooked up without preparation, practice, long and difficult study, and the proper tools... and I suspect any attempt to find shortcuts on any of these things would in fact be dangerous.

 

Bacteriophages could be useful, but those are things that the most skilled researchers and lab workers can't make use of. Zero chance of an amateur, even one doing what it takes, being able to produce those.

 

Some of my questions were naive, but I was trying to find starting points. Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be necessary to get a degree in pharamcological engineering to do these things... though anything other than that would certainly be the hard road. Anyone who thinks that this is something you could do without devoting decades of your life to shouldn't bother to start, and anyone that thinks that testing any products on themselves is a good idea should have a legal guardian protecting their interests.

 

In the intervening months, I have read as extensively as I could on this subject. My own suspicions are that one would have to spend a minimum of thousands of dollars on a home lab, itself capable of creating undue suspicion with the authorities, and that you spend 5 years before you had anything to show for it, just practicing. It could take that or longer to learn proper sterile technique outside of an occupational or educational setting, let alone many of the other things one would need to learn.

 

As a hobby, this would certainly count as one of the most esoteric out there.

[Seawitch]

Well I am a Pagan, however my background is Nuclear Health Physics so not fluffy and ooooooooooooo trees and stuff. Moving on, I looked up how to make penicillin because I intend to star a small holding. Part of which will mean I want the land to support me. If I can make antibiotics that would negate the need for me to travel miles to see a Dr. Oh I should explain that I have 15 years experience as a diagnosing paramedic before, as I am sure someone will, someone leaps on a chair and lectures me on why we need Dr's.

So anyhow looking into this site has completely put me off trying to grow penicillin myself. I am sure there is an easier way than described on the previous pages however there are natural antibiotics. Or you could always use some of the methods described by previous members. Horseradish is an antibiotic. It is broad spectrum but like using all types of plants, the levels will vary from plant to plant season to season. There are others though it is hard to research waffly opinion riddled documents on the net written by opinionated nutters who use their benefit to pay for broadband. Am I being cynical.

 

As I have read by another member Honey in a poultice is very useful.

 

Yarrow - one of the easiest plants to identify and can be found along hedgerows would serve as a good bandage for a deep cut. Get the leaves, crush them in a strong grip, stuff them in the open wound. Or bathe a deep cut in one plants leaves after letting them soak in some hot water. The plant has a coagulant effect and heals wounds fast by killing germs. It also lessens scarring.

 

Hope that helps.

[silentblue1987]

Been researching this one a bit because of a weird fetish for learning it seams.

 

Found out the penicilium genus is one of the most common spore types in the world, often the most common cause of spore related infections, and its known for spoiling of food. This spore is known for having a green/blue tinting and sometimes yellow/gold. I thought it was strange for saying yellow/gold untill I read an article on the discovery of penicillium chrysogenum species in the 1940's on a spoiling cantaloupe. The species isnt particuarily high yield compared to the other species in the family, but it takes to culturing in containers much better than the rest of the family.

 

One of the primary reasons why its unrecommended to manufacture the natural forms of penicillin is due to the penicilium genus containing toxins if you misidentify the species. Some of the penicilium spores produce neurotoxins which can kill you if ingested. Otherwise its quite easy to produce and find the spores, i might just post the spore ordering site for penicillium chrysogenum as proof =P.

 

As far as the procedure for collecting the penicillin... Its simply a byproduct that needs to be centrifuged till it seperates, and filtered out. So yes, the "penicillin soup" is actually the most accurate way its manufactured. Sadly the nitty gritty of this process appears closely guarded because I can't find much info besides what has already been mentioned.

 

I hope this info helps clear things up.

 

(References)

http://www.sci.muni.cz/mikrob/Miniatlas/pen-chr.htm

http://www.doctorfungus.org/thefungi/penicillium.htm

http://windintheroses.googlepages.com/penicillin_diy

 

(historical info)

http://www.uwlax.edu/faculty/volk/toms_fungi/nov2003.html

 

(insulin production)

http://www.microbiologyprocedure.com/industrial-microbiology/penicillin-production.htm

 

(order your samples here lol)

http://www.connecticutvalleybiological.com/index.php

Edited September 11, 2009 by silentblue1987

[dr.syntax]

Well as far as antivirals go,BHT: butylated hydroxytoluene, ranks on top in my opinion. Much has been written about it. It certainly does not cost much. As you no doubt know, few if any antibiotics work against viral infections. Read the literature and make what you will of it. ...Dr.Syntax

[insane_alien]

dr.syntax, nobody is talking about anti-virals. they're talking about penicillin. stay on topic.

[dr.syntax]

insane_alien, In case you did not notice,the topic broadened as the thread progressed as is often the case. Insulin,herbal remedies,making soap and such were discussed. My mention of BHT for use as an anti-viral seemed in line with where the thread had progressed. ...ds

[insane_alien]

no, it didn't. conversation was still centered around penicillin.

[dr.syntax]

with penicillin. Three of which discussed making insulin. And yet you pick me alone out to accuse of being off topic for mentioning BHT. ...ds

[silentblue1987]

Sadly even if you two bicker about it, penicillin is an anti-bacterial not antiviral in which case BHT is slightly off topic because it doesn't fit the same criteria as penicillin..

 

Its nice to know there is an antiviral agent out there but we were originally inquiring on penicillin due to its potentially "easy" manufacturing and wondrous antibacterial properties, and some even wondering whether or not Hollywood had some actual accuracy in movies where they just grab some mold from rotting food and cure 10,000 people with 1 batch... lol

 

butylated hydroxytoluene according to its classification is an antioxidant oddly. Meaning I could just as easily find some pomegranate fruit, make some juice with it, and have virtually the same (though tart tasting) effect due to its immense amounts of antioxidants.

 

 

So stop attacking each other and defend your claims before I rant any longer.