What's worse, creationism or homophobia?

[Daecon]

Hate is an exaggerated dislike, but the cause of the dislike is usually rational... unless it's a product of religious dogma which is itself irrational.

[thatbiologyg]

 

So because no answer is forthcoming, that proves there's no answer? As a scientist you should know better than that. How about evolution as the mechanism? The moral of the bible compliments our lack of proof in science. Requiring blind faith would imply that no proof could ever be found. If god truly is as he's been conveniently defined, you would be convinced of his non-existence in terms of evidence, and that is the case isn't it?

 

I'm not a scientist, just one in training

 

I just don't find the idea that a God created the universe to be logical. To me, it seems to be a primitive people's explanation of their existence and a way to attach meaning to their place in the world. Who created God? Who created the being that created God? Is it turtles all the way down? And why not a Goddess instead of a God? I cannot believe in something I simply don't find plausible, no matter how much anyone else wishes I could. But perhaps this is just my belief in non belief But regardless of this, I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs. I just really wish they'd leave my daughter's education out of it.

 

But this is really off topic now, we could start a new thread if you like?

Not really, because he's not advocating hatred nor justification of hatred toward any group, rather defending a group being hated.

 

This I do not understand. He listed many scientist who falsified their findings (piltdown man etc...) and suggested that because of this all scientists should be classified as frauds. I responded by suggesting that this would be like saying all Christians are hypocritical because a few a hypocritical (Haggart being with a homosexual whilst preaching against homosexuality).

 

 

Isn't that a bit rich coming from a group of 'scientists' who invented false drawings of embryos (Haeckel), constructed the fake Piltdown Man, and falsified the evidence relating to peppered moths? Yes, some creationists have been wrong in some of their claims, and that has been admitted and frankly discussed on the ever-growing number of creationist websites. Can you name just one creationist 'lie' on a similar scale as Haeckel's blatant forgeries and the 50-year shame of so-called 'missing link' Piltdown Man?

 

I responded:

Isnt that a bit like categorizing all Christians as lying hypocritical jerks because a few of their ranks have committed sexual improprieties (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...2770,00.html)?

 

 

Maybe I took away the wrong message, but Mr Benett seems to be grouping all evolutionary biologists as liars. I can assure you, I did not falsify my Gossypium phylogenies

[ParanoiA]

But this is really off topic now, we could start a new thread if you like?

 

Nah, I think we pretty much agree in belief. Your last post seems more reasonable to me. I've spent most of my life with an aversion to christianity, and later realized it was an aversion to religion in general, and later still, have realized it's an aversion to what I believe to be ideologies that shackle the advancement of the human condition.

 

Admittedly, I have merely a loose grip on what that really means, but I have to reject overcompensation to be fair and sure of my own position. True tolerance means tolerance of the intolerant.

 

This I do not understand. He listed many scientist who falsified their findings (piltdown man etc...) and suggested that because of this all scientists should be classified as frauds.

 

No, he was responding to Sayanara, who stated, about creationism:

 

-It passes lies as facts,

 

So he replied with:

 

Isn't that a bit rich coming from a group of 'scientists' who invented false drawings of embryos (Haeckel)...

 

So, no he's not calling scientists liars, rather he's replying to Sayanara's accusation by pointing out similar issues in science.

[foodchain]

Now, I would certainly challenge the logic behind rationalizing hatred for creationism, but not for child molesters.

 

I don’t hate per say the people, just the philosophy they hold. I mean in one instance, lets take politics. What if some president comes into power that feels the need to say remove evolution from public education because the righteous followers of the holy unicorn despise such. Its a hellish thought really to think that in all reality nothing really prevents this except for human endeavor.

 

I mean debating some of them they hold the idea that natural selection has to be some purely genetic mechanism inside an organism with clairvoyance to the outside world... To the idea of entropy being so horrible abused for an agenda. They don’t hold any rigor overall to arguments, and will simply act on emotional whims basically to support some thoroughly refuted philosophy that allows them the ability to not have to think about anything really, it quite vulgar and basically offensive to me. Its not only that, but of course such has a long history of leading to persecution. I think India is the only nation on the face of the earth where the Jews have not been persecuted, why all the horror stories from it? Bottom line to me is theism in any modern form or basically the concept in general is nothing more the ignorance. Most modern religions have been around for thousands of years, and I don’t see humanity making some great strides towards utopia for such, or for that matter it even really making a difference.

 

I am not going to say why people do what they do, its probably a vastly complex subject, but what I do know is regardless of social role history shows that people period are capable of anything really, from tossing children to starving dogs to raping them, it does not matter per say what you align you supposed character with. To compound injury with assault, basically if religion had its way evolution would be banned, as I am sure anything that conflicted with such, this would include human life like it has so many times in past been the case. I also feel its akin to the movie terminator, in that it will not stop until its ripping your heart out, religion that is.

[ParanoiA]

I don’t hate per say the people, just the philosophy they hold. I mean in one instance, lets take politics. What if some president comes into power that feels the need to...

 

Well the libertarian in me has to point out that public education shouldn't be run by the federal government in any capacity. It should be a state function, if anything. Otherwise, private schools can give both of you what you want.

 

Anyway, I agree with alot of what you say, but to be fair consider that many of the consequences of religion, such as wars and oppression, come from men - not the religion. It's always about some perverse interpretation to justify a means to an end. And it certainly seems to have happened quite a lot in our history, and still today.

[foodchain]

Well the libertarian in me has to point out that public education shouldn't be run by the federal government in any capacity. It should be a state function, if anything. Otherwise, private schools can give both of you what you want.

 

 

I have to disagree on an angle with the public education. Even if you live in a state you are still an American citizen. So public education would at least have to uphold the constitution and say not ban certain students because of some trait they have. ON that note though you can see in some states that evolution in science education is basically being destroyed and that creationist bullshit is making its way into such. That then would basically be government and religion in the same bed if you ask me.

 

 

Anyway, I agree with alot of what you say, but to be fair consider that many of the consequences of religion, such as wars and oppression, come from men - not the religion. It's always about some perverse interpretation to justify a means to an end. And it certainly seems to have happened quite a lot in our history, and still today.

 

I agree, and tried to hint on that in the ending of my post. Still, out of all the ideological constructs people have created, you don’t see gangs of physicists and chemists attempting to kill each other, or at least not literally. It seems of theism brings about the most brutal aspects, that and I guess nationalism.