Pangloss Posted August 6, 2007 Posted August 6, 2007 A colleague of mine who just published a book is giving a public lecture and book signing tomorrow and I want to be supportive and attend. I also wrote up a few questions drawing from his book so I can help him out in that manner. But as I was looking over the book I noticed that he's addressed "Mr." on the flap and back cover, even though he has a J.D. degree. I've called him "doctor" before in person, but now I'm uncertain -- was I in error? I don't want to embarass him at the event, but I don't want to ask him either, especially since he's long since invited me to call him by his first name. It would just be too wierd to ask. What do you all think? Help me avoid a social faux pas!
iNow Posted August 6, 2007 Posted August 6, 2007 Don't lawyers go by "Esquire?" I personally do believe (without support mind you) that you were wrong to call him "doctor." You don't go to the courtroom to be defended by a doctor unless it's medical case.
the tree Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor#Titles Titles Licensed attorneys in the United States may append a variety of titles to their names, most of which are intended to convey that the person is licensed to practice law in at least one jurisdiction. "Attorney," "attorney-at-law," "Esquire" ("Esq."), "lawyer," and "J.D." are all generally acceptable titles that an attorney may use. However, "J.D." may be used by anyone who has received the degree from a law school, regardless of whether or not licensed to practice law. Those who are not admitted to practice law, but nonetheless represent or imply they are an attorney, may be subject to penalties for the unauthorized practice of law or impersonating a lawyer, both of which are criminal offenses in many jurisdictions. ABA Informal Opinion 1152 states that attorneys may use the title 'Doctor' in their function as attorneys and also states that: "Today one must have 84 to 90 post-baccalaureate hours to receive a J.D. degree. A Master of Law degree calls for 110 to 120 post-baccalaureate hours. Comparing this to the 60 hours of academic instruction plus a written dissertation, required for a [Ph.D.], one must agree that the legal degrees are at least comparable." The former ABA Model Code of Professional Responsibility provided under Rule 2-102 a J.D. recipient to use doctor with his or her name, the committee concluded in ABA Informal Opinion 1152 (1970). The Juris Doctor may be regarded as a "doctorate degree of taught program", in contrast to a "doctorate degree of research program". Practicing U.S. attorneys who hold the J.D. do not often use the title "doctor", a term reserved by custom mostly to physicians (who, like lawyers, hold professional doctorate degrees) or a holder of an academic doctorate of a research program, usually a Ph.D. One explanation for the restraintive behavior might be that the former rules of professional conduct prohibited self-laudation. On the other hand, the ABA and many state ethics committees seem to endorse the use of the doctor title by JD degree holders. In academic settings, however, such as universities or colleges, it is not common practice for holders of the Juris Doctor degree to refer to themselves, and to be addressed by students, by the formal title of "doctor." Occasionally, an attorney would be seen using the doctor title when he testifies as an expert witness. My real answer here is that I have no idea, but WikiP' doesn't seem to think it's that ordinary to call JDs 'doctor'.
Daecon Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 Well you can always edit the Wikipedia entry if you want to...
the tree Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 Well you can always edit the Wikipedia entry if you want to...What was your point there?
Bluenoise Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 What was your point there? errm you're being facetious right?
swansont Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 Wikipedia is reality. You can edit Wikipedia. Therefore, you can alter reality.
Norman Albers Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 I have for years been trying to persude friends and neighbors to address me as "Master Albers". Dang, I can't seem to make it stick.
Phi for All Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 I've called him "doctor" before in person, but now I'm uncertain -- was I in error? I don't want to embarass him at the event, but I don't want to ask him either, especially since he's long since invited me to call him by his first name.*You* can call him by first name but you're talking about a public function. Absolutely ask him beforehand if he would prefer that you refer to him as "doctor" for this event. He'll appreciate that you want to get it right.
the tree Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 errm you're being facetious right?No, I don't see why I would want to edit the article. It already has all the information that I looked for hence it being appropriate to quote it. If it was in dire need of editing, then there'd have been little point in me using it.
Royston Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 I have for years been trying to persude friends and neighbors to address me as "Master Albers". Dang, I can't seem to make it stick. In the UK, although (AFAIK) it's not commonly used anymore, Master is used before you hit eighteen...and more than likely still living with your parents . I always preferred Master over Mr.
swansont Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 In the UK, although (AFAIK) it's not commonly used anymore, Master is used before you hit eighteen...and more than likely still living with your parents . I always preferred Master over Mr. Your last name is probably not "Bates." Just a guess.
Bluenoise Posted August 7, 2007 Posted August 7, 2007 No, I don't see why I would want to edit the article. It already has all the information that I looked for hence it being appropriate to quote it. If it was in dire need of editing, then there'd have been little point in me using it. ermmm never mind...
Pangloss Posted August 8, 2007 Author Posted August 8, 2007 I have for years been trying to persude friends and neighbors to address me as "Master Albers". Dang, I can't seem to make it stick. ROFL! Well I'll be happy to call you Master Albers! Thanks for all the replies. We had the function tonight and it was more informal than I thought it would be, and I called him "Mike" (which is, fortunately, his first name). Honestly I don't think he cared and was just happy that people came to show their support. That's cool. I think I have to agree with the replies suggesting that it's not a doctorate degree, that was what I got from that Wikipedia article as well. A bit embarassing, but these things happen. I've seen ABD (all but dissertation) professors put "Dr." in front of their names and that's just lame, IMO. Faculty ethics just ain't what they used to be.
Norman Albers Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Yah, Swansont, when I was 13-14 we tortured Robert Bates for quite a few months... I will admit it kicked my butt when journals addressed their responses to Dr. Albers. Awright! However, I don't think I'd be comfortable with an honorary doctorate. When I graduated Princeton in 1970 I was quite proud of the institution for going on record against the Vietnam War, and supporting our protests. There was something too strange about watching BOB DYLAN walk on stage in a robe to accept one.!.?.
the tree Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 It always bugs me that in America the word "professor" doesn't mean anything, even though in England it's pretty much the biggest academic thingumy there is.
Norman Albers Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Tree, we distinguish tenured professors. What is the significance in Britain?
swansont Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Yah, Swansont, when I was 13-14 we tortured Robert Bates for quite a few months... I will admit it kicked my butt when journals addressed their responses to Dr. Albers. Awright! However, I don't think I'd be comfortable with an honorary doctorate. When I graduated Princeton in 1970 I was quite proud of the institution for going on record against the Vietnam War, and supporting our protests. There was something too strange about watching BOB DYLAN walk on stage in a robe to accept one.!.?. I got a kick, too, seeing "Dr." but almost all of the PhD's I know don't insist on it being used — one exception is someone who bought a degree from Kennedy Western U (seems they've changed their name to Warren National); he was quite adamant about using the title. Generally I only insist if it's someone who knows I have a PhD and calls me "Mr." I tell them (in a "Dr. evil voice and pose) I didn't spend six years in evil graduate school to be called "mister." There's the odd moment here and there, when someone tries to intimidate you with their own title, and it's nice to have that club in the bag. I like Robin Williams' description of his honorary degree - he says it's like a nerf vibrator.
Norman Albers Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 If I ever met Dylan I'd certainly razz him. There has to be a song lyric here! Once a friend was straightening me out about pronoucing Edvard Witten's name. We debated addressing him, and I said "Baltimore? That is East Coast so I'd use 'Ed babe'." Tree,, if I ever meet Penrose should I address him as Doctor, Professor, or Matey???
Royston Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Tree, we distinguish tenured professors. What is the significance in Britain? I'd like to know that as well, I thought the title Professor was equally presitigous whether you came from the U.S or U.K.
CDarwin Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 In the US a professor is just someone who teaches collage classes. It's a career. In much of Europe, a professor is someone who has been given a particular chair at a university. It's a specific achievement. Just in case you don't want to sludge through the Wiki article.
Norman Albers Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 In the US the endowed professorial positions are prestigious. (Dr. Didgeridoo is the So-and-So Professor of Such-and-Such.
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