The surge isn't working

[Wormwood]

Oh, to the contrary. Occupation almost always takes place after wars, and it always has. What do you think Reconstruction was after the American Civil War? What do you think we did in the Phillipines after the Spanish American War, or Germany and Japan after WW2, or what we're still doing in Korea? Keeping the peace and rebuilding has ALWAYS been an important job of the U.S. military.

You are comparing two different things though. Keeping the peace and rebuilding an area is much easier when you have completely leveled everything in that area. The people's will to resist fades. With these more modern "surgical" strikes, there is no true display of power to the common person. However, the insurgents have daily displays of power through civilian bombings and intimidation, and coincidentally have had no trouble finding supporters as support for the soft US fails.

 

Now, looking at those examples, obviously we've had very mixed results, and our failures weren't exactly because we "went too easy on them." Reconstruction was mostly a failure, because the South thought we were being too harsh and domineering.

That's not entirely true though. The North thought Grant went to easy on the south. People in the south were pissed because they lost even more states rights which was what the whole war was about. In other words they were just mad about losing the war...and some people there still are

 

We didn't police Germany after WW1, but our harsh conditions (backed up with vague threats) were a major contributing factor to WW2.

This seems like a statement in support of harsh policing after a war. We could have avoided WWII altogether if we had crushed Germany more thoroughly the first time.

I do see what you're saying though. Since we live in an era of wars with regulations that dictates everything has to have a humanitarian spin on it, you don't want to crush a nation completely then leave them to their own devices.

 

Germany and Japan were successes, soundly and unconditionally defeated, but afterwards treated with dignity and, yes, "fairness."

Again you are comparing unlike things. Germany and Japan were leveled. Japan had atomic bombs dropped on major cities, and Berlin was carpet bombed until all of the big buildings fell, then the rubble was shelled with artillery. Of course they were ready for peace...they knew the extent of the alternative was the complete destruction of every man, woman, and child in the country.

 

 

 

Are you kidding? If a foreign power invaded the United States and forcibly deposed the President, then yes, I would most definitely support the new guy less. I'm not fond of our President, and I wouldn't vote for him, but of course I support our democratically elected government.

Well that was a bad example because I wasn't talking about him being removed by a foreign power so much as a different power. My main point was that just because someone is elected, doesn't mean that's actually who the country wants running things. It just means that out of a very limited selection of people, this guy was the most popular at the time, or had enough to pay the ballot counters.

 

That's a matter of fighting the war and deposing the powers that be. We're talking about after the war. We didn't harshly police them, because we didn't need to, because, ultimately, they liked us.

People say and do crazy things when you are blowing up their town. They liked us because we still had international credibility and we could stop the horrific violence that we brought to them. There was no shortage of people supporting the Nazi's in Germany before 1944-45. It still doesn't change the fact that harsher military tactics seem to lead to a more docile post war population.

 

We attacked Iraq in the first place 90% because we thought they were a threat, in the form of WMDs. Or at least that's what we were told.

I never thought they were a threat, and I am pretty sure no one in our government did either. Is it just a coincidence they used trumped up stories of a surprise attack so soon after 9/11 to piggy back the Iraq war on Afghanistan?

 

And even barring that, do you really think the Israel/Palestine problem is the result of coddling Palestinians?

No it is the result of coddling Israel and artificially carving out a nation for them while simultaneously exercising or trying to exercise control over who they can fight and when. But to an extent the international community is what has stopped Israel from just wiping the Palestinians off the map completely. I guess that is coddling of sorts for the Palestinians, just not from the Israelis.

[Realitycheck]

The surge isn't working because Bush is in league with Mecca, via Saudi Arabia, pretending to be the Mahdi, or the 2nd Coming of Islam, in order to bring righteousness to the world. Of course, what Bin Laden knows is that there can only be one Mahdi and that all of the others, the Nasrallah's and al-Sadrs will just fade into oblivion and obscurity, but it is this war for fame, between Bin Laden's war on the west's lack of values and Bush's war on Bin Laden's promotion of senseless suicide that utterly drives the quest to eternal fruition of the end, in which Bin Laden, in a maddened last dash for completion, drives a specially-designed Pakistani rocket, into the White House, killing each other, only for us to find that the Pakistanis left out the nuclear warhead and countless lives were saved, except for the leading contenders who were knocked out of contention for the title of the One True Savior.

[bascule]

175 dead in Iraq today due to suicide bombings

 

The surge is working like a charm!

[Pangloss]

Cripes, are Americans so dense they still don't realize they lost this mission the day they invaded and occupied Iraq. 4 and a half years later the country is a basketcase. If it wasn't war, it'd be a comedy skit.

 

The surge isn't working because Bush is in league with Mecca, via Saudi Arabia, pretending to be the Mahdi, or the 2nd Coming of Islam, in order to bring righteousness to the world.

 

175 dead in Iraq today due to suicide bombings

 

The surge is working like a charm!

 

This thread would make a great segment for The Daily Show. Intelligent discourse about Iraq, not so much. I agree with SkepticLance's post above that the fact that Bush refuses to see what happens is no reason for others to "put blinders on", and I'm not trying to pick on Geoguy (he did have a couple of interesting points), but some of these comments -- on a science board! -- defy basic logic and reason. The kind of tripe you usually find at places like DemocraticUnderground.com or Bill O'Reilly's forum. Yeesh.

 

I feel like a network programmer rolling out "an exciting new reality-based game show". Unclean, unclean... must... wash... hands....

[Realitycheck]

I'm not seriously commenting on war anymore. Even with all this computing power the government has, we still have not figured out the right answer, so I am staying out of it. What we have now is what we can deal with, whoever has the most power, nothing more, nothing less, despite what anybody has to say about anything.

 

On a side note, remember that thing called the budget deficit that was supposed to explode with retiring baby boomers and war going on at the same time? Well, it turns out that the current deficit is a meager $158 billion dollars. With the tax cuts, armored Humvees, and troop surges, I really have a hard time seeing how he cooked these books. Any ideas?

 

http://www.cbo.gov/

[geoguy]

This thread would make a great segment for The Daily Show. Intelligent discourse about Iraq, not so much. I agree with SkepticLance's post above that the fact that Bush refuses to see what happens is no reason for others to "put blinders on", and I'm not trying to pick on Geoguy (he did have a couple of interesting points), but some of these comments -- on a science board! -- defy basic logic and reason. The kind of tripe you usually find at places like DemocraticUnderground.com or Bill O'Reilly's forum. Yeesh.

 

QUOTE]

 

You have no concept of science. What a joke your ridiculous analogy is. The Americans are humiliated and will retreat with the tail between the legs. Fact.

 

Your 'evidence' is what defies logic and reason. Ha! Ha! Little Green men and 'the surge is working'. Good grief. Do you also use leprechauns and elves in your 'evidence' when doing science. There's been so much 'progress' according to the Americans that Iraq must now be Nirvanah on Earth. Utopia. 4 and a half years of the President announcing 'great progress.....wow...

 

It's sad the Americans are so awash in Washington proaganda they still give the morons in office any credibility. 10 to 1 tthe report in September will say 'we need to give it more time'. The world will roll its eyes while Americans lap up the same nonsense its swallowed for 4 and a half years. The USA defeated the Japanese empire and helped defeat the German Reich in less time than it's taken to secure the road from Baghdad to the airport.

 

Ask Americans on the street in any U.S. city who they are fighting and there would be no consensus. the Arabs? Osama Bin Laden? those Muslim guys? Terrorists? What's a shiite....is that a sunni with a turban? Isn't Baghdad in Iran and they are developing nukes? It's a friggin joke and all this after 4 and a half years.

 

.

[ParanoiA]

You have no concept of science. What a joke your ridiculous analogy is. The Americans are humiliated and will retreat with the tail between the legs. Fact.

 

It's not a fact, it's a hope, a prediction that you want to come true. This blatant error counts against your credibility to say what the concept of science is.

 

Your 'evidence' is what defies logic and reason. Ha! Ha! Little Green men and 'the surge is working'. Good grief. Do you also use leprechauns and elves in your 'evidence' when doing science. There's been so much 'progress' according to the Americans that Iraq must now be Nirvanah on Earth. Utopia. 4 and a half years of the President announcing 'great progress.....wow...

 

He didn't provide any evidence on anything in which to apply logic and reason to. Again, your credibility is taking a nose dive here while your emotional aversions are liberated without critical thinking - a quite fundamental ingredient to the "concept of science".

 

It's sad the Americans are so awash in Washington proaganda they still give the morons in office any credibility. 10 to 1 tthe report in September will say 'we need to give it more time'.

 

This is what happens when you judge us from thousands of miles away. This is also why I can't jump on the "Iraq failure bandwagon" because the people who keep telling me what a failure it is, are just as far removed from Iraq as I am. And the people that are there, are either military or media - neither of which has any reason to tell me the truth. Although, I'd trust the military grunts before anybody else in that region.

 

These, "reports" and crap, that you read about in your little newspapers, is generated by the same slickster club that got us into these messes. Seriously geoguy, you keep making the assumption that we believe this crap we're being fed. Some do, no doubt, but they would swallow any crap they're fed. The rest of us, we roll our eyes too. But these people have terms to serve, and unfortunately they still have power until next election.

[geoguy]

CNN:

 

"In another attack on Tuesday, gunmen wearing army uniforms abducted five Oil Ministry officials from their Baghdad apartments, the Interior Ministry said.

 

Abdul Jabber al-Wagga, a deputy oil minister, and four general managers were in a ministry compound along Palestine Street in southeastern Baghdad when at least 60 gunmen in 17 vehicles stormed the site, wounding five guards in the clash, the Interior Ministry said."

 

'gunmen'? So are these also 'bad guys'. If so, why? Are they Iraqis anting to overthrow the corrupt government of an aggressive occupier? Are these 'gunmen' any different from the French resistance in WW2....oops...Americans will call them 'terrorists'...'links to al-Quaida'. Start kicking down the doors of households and draging Iraqi men off to American 'interrogation' so that...so that what?

 

No friggin 'surge' can't work because the Americans have no clue who they are fighting in Iraq. There's still (after 4 and a half years) no purpose now other than 'stability' when there is no society left in Iraq to stablize.

[iNow]

It's sad the Americans are so awash in Washington proaganda they still give the morons in office any credibility.

I completely appreciate your frustration, but I'd suggest that you are painting with too broad a brush. Americans are like people any where else, and there are individual differences. Some people buy into the nonsense, others have palpable disgust.

 

To say that "Americans" do one thing or another like some collective hive mind is way too general. The polls speak a bit to this also. If ~20% of your country said one thing to a question, I'd be wrong to state that your entire country believes that one thing.

 

 

Again, I appreciate your point, but it's not just a phenomenon of where one was born or currently resides.

[ParanoiA]

Again, I appreciate your point, but it's not just a phenomenon of where one was born or currently resides.

 

Yeah, I guess a presidential approval rating of 31% somehow translates to 100% to some people...

[john5746]

Again, I appreciate your point, but it's not just a phenomenon of where one was born or currently resides.

 

Maybe he is compensating for something....

[geoguy]

I completely appreciate your frustration, but I'd suggest that you are painting with too broad a brush. Americans are like people any where else, and there are individual differences. Some people buy into the nonsense, others have palpable disgust.

 

To say that "Americans" do one thing or another like some collective hive mind is way too general. The polls speak a bit to this also. If ~20% of your country said one thing to a question, I'd be wrong to state that your entire country believes that one thing.

 

 

Again, I appreciate your point, but it's not just a phenomenon of where one was born or currently resides.

 

The USA is a democracy. Bush was elected in 2000...re-elected in 2004...every member of the Congress elected. the Congress is the people's representative. They voted to support the war and still vote to fund it. the internal ins-and-outs of domestic U.S. politics and percents of support is academic to the rest of the world. What matters is the ACTUAL policy and ACTUAL actions of the democratically elected American government. The American people had and still have the ability to stop the insanity but do not.

 

'Americans' and not just 'some Americans' are responsible for Iraqinam and it's still 'Americans' responsible for the continuing insanity. In WW2 we fought 'the Germans' and not just those Germans who voted for Hitler. I doubt if there was any qualms about any American in the Iraqinam debacle speaking of 'the French'...'The Iranians'...'the Sunnis'...

[waitforufo]

Perhaps some of you missed this New York Times article. Regardless of next year’s election outcome, The US military will stay in Iraq.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/us/politics/12dems.html?bl&ex=1187150400&en=eafa08e3e1315044&ei=5087%0A

 

Bush has 16+ months left in office and the Democratic Party has already demonstrated that they won’t pull funding for the war as long as he is president. Gen Petraeus has already shifted American policy to supporting local tribal leaders willing to join us in fighting AQI and like minded groups. This policy was used by Petraeus in the Kurdish areas with great success. His recommendations should have been listened to from the beginning and following them now will make success more difficult but far from impossible. Current surge successes using the Petraeus policy will be provided in the September report making it impossible for Democrats, particularly in the Southern States, to pull support for the war. This means the next president will inherit this war and the consequences of withdrawal. This means no withdrawal.

 

By the way, the sensational tactics of the Iraqi insurgents and AQI are of no military importance. They are for political purposes targeted at American public opinion. Expect to see an increase in such events up to the presentation of the September report. Perhaps those requiring such a public report should consider the consequences of their US political jockeying.

[geoguy]

The attacks 4 years ago were also considered 'political' and 'desperate acts' of a losing insurgency.

 

It doesn't make them any less deadly or any less significant or any less likely to continue for another 4 years as long as the futility of American military policy continues.

 

And these attacks are not primarily directed against American opinion. They are directed against internal Iraqi opinion. They are loud billboards telling the Iraqi people that they will not find security in the current central government in Baghdad. the Iraqis are fully aware that the Americans are going to leave in a year...if not in 2 or 3 and that their security will only be guaranteed in allegience to regional militias (as it is in Palestine and Lebanon). The government will be an impotent force secondary to all the other divisions that the invasion has allowed to flourish in Iraq. The Shiite leader of Iraq wasn't holding hands with the Shiite President of Iran in Tehran last week because of being best buddies. He was smiling widely because he understands that he needs the support of the Islamic nutbar to survive.

[Wormwood]

'Americans' and not just 'some Americans' are responsible for Iraqinam and it's still 'Americans' responsible for the continuing insanity. In WW2 we fought 'the Germans' and not just those Germans who voted for Hitler. I doubt if there was any qualms about any American in the Iraqinam debacle speaking of 'the French'...'The Iranians'...'the Sunnis'...

Quiet you, or Canada gets it next

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html

 

Seriously though, what the heck is "Iraqinam" supposed to be? "Nam" isn't a suffix that means quagmire or anything...just so you know.

 

No friggin 'surge' can't work because the Americans have no clue who they are fighting in Iraq.

You call Americans dumb and in the same sentence use a triple negative!

 

You are right though that many Americans don't even know who or why we are fighting. The reason is apathy. We don't have to care, so many of us simply don't. Sure, blow up anyone you want, just keep my taxes down!

[Pangloss]

You have no concept of science. What a joke your ridiculous analogy is.

 

Your 'evidence' is what defies logic and reason. Ha! Ha!

 

Do you also use leprechauns and elves in your 'evidence' when doing science.

 

Geoguy, I think you should refrain from participating on the politics board until you learn to start behaving in a more respectful and mature manner. That was just attrocious and if you'd said it to anybody other than me you'd be staring at a login prompt at this very moment.

[waitforufo]

… their security will only be guaranteed in allegience to regional militias (as it is in Palestine and Lebanon).

 

The Petraeus plan is to form alliances with regional militias. This plan is showing results. In fact, Petraeus said just today that he felt that troops could be reduced in areas previously strongly controlled by AQI because of these new alliances.

 

So, the surge is showing progress.

[blike]

You have no concept of science. What a joke your ridiculous analogy is. The Americans are humiliated and will retreat with the tail between the legs. Fact.

...

Do you also use leprechauns and elves in your 'evidence' when doing science.

Thanks for spelling out the facts. If it weren't for people like you telling us what the facts are the rest of us would just completely lose our way.

 

Your response to Pangloss is inappropriate. I don't care how dumb you think Pangloss' arguments are, or how dumb you think the average American is (it's certainly obvious that you harbor much resentment), I'm certain that there is a much more effective and respectable way to convey your positions.

 

If you cannot figure out how to do this, then perhaps you should refrain from participating in this forum or these types discussions.

[geoguy]

Thanks for spelling out the facts. If it weren't for people like you telling us what the facts are the rest of us would just completely lose our way.

 

Your response to Pangloss is inappropriate. I don't care how dumb you think Pangloss' arguments are, or how dumb you think the average American is (it's certainly obvious that you harbor much resentment), I'm certain that there is a much more effective and respectable way to convey your positions.

 

If you cannot figure out how to do this, then perhaps you should refrain from participating in this forum or these types discussions.

 

Perhaps Americans should refrain from the lies and fake evidence to invade and occupy countries.

 

Your baloney meter is on full. For 4 and a half years Americans have lied, fudged facts and want to continue the same 'in the name of science'.

 

Hint: Pangloss brought up the 'science' argument...not me. americans have tried every other tactic to justify the quagmire of Iraqinam so now it is the 'scientific' approach. Well, sorry, not buying that garbage.

 

Tough beans if you don't want the rest of the world to roll over and accept the American lies. 'Great progess'....'Yellow Cake'...'The surge is working'. Fortunately even a majority of Americans no longer buy into the scam.

 

The USA has lost the Iraq war as it lost the Vietnam war. Fortunately americans are an intelligent people and will learn from the misdadventure. Lies to go to war....torturing Iraqis...killing thousand of civilians...lies to oneself to deny the reality.... there will be at least a decade of navel gazing in which the USA will be restrained from another attack.

[blike]

Hint: Pangloss brought up the 'science' argument...not me. americans have tried every other tactic to justify the quagmire of Iraqinam so now it is the 'scientific' approach. Well, sorry, not buying that garbage.

Thanks for the hint. Allow me to return the courtesy: I'm in this thread not because of the opinions you hold, but because of the way you're expressing them. You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to express them in an inappropriate, disrespectful, or rude manner. If this is too much to ask, I ask for the sake of others that you please stop participating in this forum.

[geoguy]

 

You are right though that many Americans don't even know who or why we are fighting. The reason is apathy. We don't have to care, so many of us simply don't. Sure, blow up anyone you want, just keep my taxes down!

 

Pat Buchanan called it a failure of the president and a result of no more credibility. As Pat pointed out: Paris Hilton gains the headlines not only in the tabloids but on CNN and Foxnews. He said the surge will not quell the demand for withdrawal when more time is devoted on CNN to what Paris was wearing when she left jail than to 5 american soldiers being killed on the same day.

 

Americans are turned off. After all the hooplah of the invasion wore off it was ...'oops, it's not a game?' the warmongers will continue to try to stabilize a Tehran-friendly Shiite government in Iraq (the irony) but most Americans don't give a darn. You can't win a war when most folks look to September as the start of the NFL season and not an update on 'progress'.

[bascule]

This thread would make a great segment for The Daily Show. Intelligent discourse about Iraq, not so much. I agree with SkepticLance's post above that the fact that Bush refuses to see what happens is no reason for others to "put blinders on", and I'm not trying to pick on Geoguy (he did have a couple of interesting points), but some of these comments -- on a science board! -- defy basic logic and reason. The kind of tripe you usually find at places like DemocraticUnderground.com or Bill O'Reilly's forum. Yeesh.

 

Perhaps I should bring up 250 dead today in what may be the deadliest attack since the war in Iraq began.

 

You accused me of not looking at this long term enough, and I was also recently accused of presenting out-of-date information. Statistics cited a mere 2 days ago showed a momentary lull in Iraqi deaths. By a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy the surge must be working! Oh wait, 2 days later at least 400 people are dead from insurgent bombings. Doesn't exactly fit the "surge is working" assertion, does it?

 

If anything the situation is volatile, but as the graphs I linked show violence and death have been progressively on the rise in the years following the war. There is a long-term pattern, and it's not one that bodes well for those who assert the situation will improve.

[Pangloss]

I saw the news today as well and it seemed clear that the attack in the north was deliberately aimed at avoiding areas where "surging" (for lack of a more appropriate term, since IMO it's not really that much of a surge) was going on. Which really raises the question of whether those two columnists were just jumping the gun to get some press or what.

 

Sarcasm and mean-spiritedness of this thread aside, I'm more than willing to agree that the surge isn't working. I can even understand the reason for the sarcasm and mean-spiritedness, in so far as the announcement of the surge eight months ago was met by any intelligent person with, at the very least, a jaundiced eye, so for those who're already predisposed to be hopping mad at the administration, it must have been like a big stick in the eye. I empathize.

 

But not much. Partisans have only themselves to blame for their maddening frustrations. OH MY GOD THOSE AMERICANS OHMYGOD OHMYGOD (spew spew spew). What-the-frack-ever.

[foodchain]

I saw the news today as well and it seemed clear that the attack in the north was deliberately aimed at avoiding areas where "surging" (for lack of a more appropriate term, since IMO it's not really that much of a surge) was going on. Which really raises the question of whether those two columnists were just jumping the gun to get some press or what.

 

Sarcasm and mean-spiritedness of this thread aside, I'm more than willing to agree that the surge isn't working. I can even understand the reason for the sarcasm and mean-spiritedness, in so far as the announcement of the surge eight months ago was met by any intelligent person with, at the very least, a jaundiced eye, so for those who're already predisposed to be hopping mad at the administration, it must have been like a big stick in the eye. I empathize.

 

But not much. Partisans have only themselves to blame for their maddening frustrations. OH MY GOD THOSE AMERICANS OHMYGOD OHMYGOD (spew spew spew). What-the-frack-ever.

 

Having some experience with this here is the problem. Why would the insurgents happen to go where you are strong? They look just like everyone else, have blended in, or really were always there. Its like asking police to end crime in a state. I mean these people look just like every other civilian, the insurgents that is, this is why you can download youtube videos that show confused U.S personal gunning down confused civilians in a bus, that is if you would like to watch such things...Plus they dont have to go home, they are already there.

 

The war in Iraq was never really a war, in a war you have one side going out the kill the other. IN WW2 we dropped nukes, firebombed cities, basically laid waster to entire landscapes and civilizations, that’s war, iraq is Vietnam all over again. The armed forces in fighting on one leg with both there arms tied behind there back, and I think its that stress and the reality they face for life combined with other variables in Iraq that lead to horror stories such as prisoner torture for no reason save they could do it.

 

Now not to say anyone’s stupid, but in all reality outside of comic books the opposition in Iraq probably sees what they are doing as correct or just, to compound with this the insurgency in Iraq is an amorphous composite of groups, some of them being complete and utter religious nutcases trying to bring the apocalypse on.

 

To compare the good with the bad, well on one side of the scale you have 100 pounds of the good, and on the other side of the scale you have 30 tons of the bad, now the only thing I can ever hope that Americans would do is simply see this, the four years of such and demand change.

[ParanoiA]

Seriously though, what the heck is "Iraqinam" supposed to be? "Nam" isn't a suffix that means quagmire or anything...just so you know.

 

You know, the more I think about it the more I agree that it is like Vietnam over there. The Tet offensive was a surprise coordinated attack by the VC and NVA which was beaten back after the initial surprise. It was solid military victory for the south vietnameze and the americans, yet the media here at home repeatedly ran footage of retreating american soldiers, death and etc and left the impression the americans lost. According to Wiki, a pole ran at the time revealed 60% of americans believed we lost the Tet Offensive.

 

That's like D-day going down as a loss because of the initial slaughtering of our soldiers as they stormed the beach head. Good thing we didn't have the kind of media we do today, or Normandy might have been portrayed as a huge loss with the country requesting our troops to come home as politicians play with our young men's lives vying for power.

 

So, yeah, I think geoguy's right on the money here. Regardless of success or failure, the media will sensationalize failure - for whatever reason - just like Vietnam.