Animal Testing - Right or Wrong?

[Mart]

When was the last time you saw a wild cow? They only survive because we allow them to survive.

I get it. Your talking about domestic animals.

The system.

Yeah man. THE system.

[Sayonara]

If we can think about it, shouldn't we be more fair then those who can't think about it?

You have already excluded any attributes of "those" that make being fair to them meaningful. QED.

[Sayonara]

I get it. Your talking about domestic[/i'] animals.

I think his point was that we have wiped out the wild cow by domesticating it over many centuries; not that some arbitrary word in his post is globally applicable.

[Mart]

You have already excluded any attributes of "those" that make being fair to them meaningful. QED.

It's true that if they don't have a concept of fairness they won't appreciate it if we practice it. But we appreciate it.

[Sayonara]

Strawman. Must try harder.

[Mart]

I think his point was that we have wiped out the wild cow by domesticating it over many centuries; not that some arbitrary word in his post is globally applicable.

Wiped out sounds a bit brutal unless you were you referring to the gene pool. I don't imagine that genes feel anything. Perhaps that's why they need us?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You have already excluded any attributes of "those" that make being fair to them meaningful. QED.

I'm not sure if I understand this properly, but are you saying that if they can't think or know ethics, we don't need to be nice to them?

[Sayonara]

Wiped out sounds a bit brutal unless you were you referring to the gene pool. I don't imagine that genes feel anything. Perhaps that's why they need us?

That post is meaningless.

 

 

I'm not sure if I understand this properly, but are you saying that if they can't think or know ethics, we don't need to be nice to them?

No, I'm saying it doesn't actually affect the decision. The fact is that whether or not we choose to make them our dinner is neither fair nor unfair.

[Mart]

Strawman. Must try harder.

Strawman. You've lost me. You need to be less cryptic with simple folk like me.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

No, I'm saying it doesn't actually affect the decision. The fact is that whether or not we choose to make them our dinner is neither fair nor unfair.

I know that. I was pointing out that we are the ones who can think, so we should have ethics. What those ethics are is a different matter.

The fact that they (probably) do not know ethics indicates that they are less "important" than us to some people; I suppose it's a matter of whether or not they can think or whatever.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Strawman. You've lost me. You need to be less cryptic with simple folk like me.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[Mart]

[url']http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html[/url]

Thanks Cap'n. Seems to me that unless you can clearly state your position shouting STRAWMAN at somebody is just another STRAWMAN or another way to win a point unfairly. But who gives a rat's arse about fairness.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Thanks Cap'n. Seems to me that unless you can clearly state your position shouting STRAWMAN at somebody is just another STRAWMAN or another way to win a point unfairly. But who gives a rat's arse about fairness.

You don't understand strawmanning.

[Sayonara]

I know that. I was pointing out that we are the ones who can think' date=' so we should have ethics. What those ethics are is a different matter.

The fact that they (probably) do not know ethics indicates that they are less "important" than us to some people; I suppose it's a matter of whether or not they can think or whatever.[/quote']

How is it unethical to kill a cow?

 

You don't understand strawmanning.

Ignore the troll. They die without food.

[ydoaPs]

How is it unethical to kill a cow?

 

 

i THINK it is Hinduism that is against killing cows. they are sacred.

[fairychild]

Of course YT2095' date=' you'd have to ask yourself: "How would you determine whether or not LSD has an effect on an animal?". LSD is extremely potent, I regularly give my rats 25 micrograms of LSD per day (approximately the human "threshold" dose) and they tell the difference (versus an injection of saline) with about 99% accuracy (I'd say 100% but nobody's perfect). From their response, I can tell they also respond to 10 micrograms of LSD. I can't recall the dose for pidgeon discrimination training off the top of head.....

 

Aardvark, that should answer your question. I would assume LSD effects most animals. I've even seen a few publication observing the effects of LSD in insects!!![/quote']

according to a. hofmann optimal dosages given to spiders made them build their net more precisely. animals do react on LSD, however their brain does not have the same complexity, so the effects are relatively poor and not much of value compared to the human brain/body under LSD.

 

on a sidenote.. why do you give your rats LSD ?

[Sayonara]

i THINK it is Hinduism that is against killing cows. they are sacred.

They don't kill cows because they consider them to be sacred. Killing one is sacrilegious, not unethical.

[Newtonian]

uhm.I think this thread is all over the place here.IMO of course animal testing is right.

Anyone who has got shampoo in their eyes,knows the bunny suffering was not in vain.

Interestingly some hair dyes are no longer tested on animals, especially here in the UK.Which has led to some horrific injuries to women.

Animals are not tested on for some sick pleasure,they are in alot of cases neccersary.

[Aardvark]

Interestingly some hair dyes are no longer tested on animals' date=' especially here in the UK.Which has led to some horrific injuries to women.

[/quote']

 

Is that just a rumour or can you substantiate it with factual details?

[fairychild]

[Newtonian]

Is that just a rumour or can you substantiate it with factual details?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/30/hair.color/

http://www.hallgold.com/toxic_chemicals_in_cosmetics.html

thats a quick 2 sec google,i will try to get some Uk info

[In My Memory]

Sayonara,

 

How is it unethical to kill a cow?

For a lot of the same reasons it is unethical to kill a human: they suffer, and they probably dont want to die.

[Lance]

For a lot of the same reasons it is unethical to kill a human: they suffer' date=' and they probably dont want to die.[/quote']

 

That would make it unethical to make your son go to school then too, wouldnt it?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

No, because sending your son to school also has advantages for him, like him getting an education and being able to get a good job later in life.

[In My Memory]

Lance,

 

That would make it unethical to make your son go to school then too, wouldnt it?

That depends on the competing interests.

 

If there is an interest in long-term success in life, or short-term success on a math test, then it would be better to make my son go to school even if he doesnt want to. If my son is sick, an interest in his well-being of him (and hence keeping him home from school) will usually result in more positive ethical consequences, and schools are usually very flexible in accomodating temporarily ill children. And if my son is afraid to go to school because of a bully, there are probably better solutions than to watch his grades drop because of his inattendance at school (i.e. homeschool would be an extreme, so would transferring schools, perhaps requesting school interference would be a good compromise).