Where can i buy chemicals?

[evilwalnut]

I still dont quite understand how those with good intentions and proper credentials are having problems getting chemicals.

 

Chemical supply catelogs are available (almost) anywhere in the world. If you are serious about setting up a lab or experimenting you can obtain certification and the chemicals you need. Its just a matter of resource expenditure and determination.

[Lance]

I still dont quite understand how those with good intentions and proper credentials are having problems getting chemicals.

 

Chemical supply catelogs are available (almost) anywhere in the world. If you are serious about setting up a lab or experimenting you can obtain certification and the chemicals you need. Its just a matter of resource expenditure and determination.

 

1. I'm pretty sure there are regulations in the US concerning labs and residential areas.

 

2. Chemical suppliers will NOT ship to residential addresses.

[bombuilder]

A few good site that I have bought from that i would really recomend would be http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/Chemassoc2/pas-reagents.html , http://www.unitednuclear.com/supplies.htm , and http://www.sciencelab.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=10403 you could also try http://www.kno3.com/home.asp if you live in europe

[budullewraagh]

DO NOT USE KNO3.COM- IT IS A US RUN ANTI-METH SITE.

 

if you buy rp, you will be tracked and, quite possibly arrested

[Lance]

DO NOT USE KNO3.COM- IT IS A US RUN ANTI-METH SITE.

 

if you buy rp' date=' you will be tracked and, quite possibly arrested[/quote']

Wow, I'm impressed. How did you figure that out? You weren't arrested were you?

[woelen]

DO NOT USE KNO3.COM- IT IS A US RUN ANTI-METH SITE.

 

if you buy rp' date=' you will be tracked and, quite possibly arrested[/quote']

Still I severely doubt that. Indeed the site is run on a Texas-based host, as shown by tracing the domainname, but the parcel I received definitely was from the UK, not the US. There were British stamps and postmarks on it. Or do you think this is run from multiple places around the world?

 

I also did a little research on the owner of that site (Kerry-An Shanks) and apparently he also sells (or sold) computer parts in a way which VERY much resembles the site he is running with kno3.com. I posted a link on this forum to show that.

 

Putting all things together, I simply do not believe it is a US-based anti-meth site, although I agree with many people that there are better chem-suppliers out there. Prices are quite high, but nevertheless, it is an additional source for potentially very interesting chems.

 

If I lived in the US, however, I would not order from them, simply because possession of RP (and iodine??) is a major reason for being suspect. Fortunately, where I live, the government is more relaxed on this.

[ffsjoe]

DO NOT USE KNO3.COM- IT IS A US RUN ANTI-METH SITE.

if you buy rp, you will be tracked and, quite possibly arrested

 

If they did do that wouldn't it be entrapment?

 

Oh and bombuilder, coming onto a science forum and posting links to chem sites with a name like that is going to put you in a bad light.

[rthmjohn]

just for the record, pfaltzandbauer will not sell chemicals to people without a chemist's license...

[jdurg]

Okay budullewraagh, I know you're trying to keep people aware of things, but please don't make an accusing post like that without 100% proof of what you're saying. Doing something like that in an open forum on the internet may be construed as libel and could get YOU into some serious litigation issues. I myself have never purchased any chemicals from them for the many points already made in this thread. They are a bit pricey and they really haven't carried anything I want. I have a better time getting chemicals from E-Bay and Unitednuclear.

 

As for possession of those chemicals being illegal, that is far from the case. You can possess ANY chemical in your home that you want and the law enforcement will have no bounds to arrest you. Now if you try to make an explosive or a drug or toxin of some kind, THEN the possession of those chemicals can be enough to get you arrested. Someone going and buying a pound of red phosphorus will NOT, and I repeat, WILL NOT get you watched by the FBI/DEA/SS/etc. etc. It's simply not worth their time. The amount of time and money it takes to monitor people buying the chemicals is simply not feasible.

 

One other thing to remember is that if you're not doing anything illegal, then who cares if the police know about what you have? I've had the post office ask me many things before when boxes would arrive with Hazmat labels and all this other stuff on it. I just told them that I have chemistry as a hobby and told them everything I was doing. I got some strange looks but never had an officer stop by my house or ever have any mail withheld on me. Christ, the U.S. Government knows that i've been going arond purchasing Uranium metal and they haven't done anything but send me an e-mail politely answering all my questions about the legal possession and storage of it.

 

Posessing chemicals isn't like possessing drugs. With drugs, the amount of the stuff you possess can give the government enough proof that you're a 'seller'. Don't forget that it's ILLEGAL to posess ANY amount of a controlled substance. With chemicals, just because you have two pounds of a substance doesn't mean you're a bomb maker or a drug maker or whatnot. The only way it can mean that you are a bomb/drug maker is if you ALSO have some of the bomb/drug in your posession. If there's a chemical that the government doesn't want you to have, they'll simply make it illegal to sell it. Unaltered ethanol is one such chemical, as is diethyl amine (or amide, I can't recall the exact name). The less they want you to have it, the more difficult it is to get it.

[insane_alien]

why are unaltered ethanol and diethylamide illegal?

[jdurg]

Unaltered ethanol cannot be purchased without a license simply because of the fact that it is dirt cheap and you can drink it. Because of this, the government has mandated that all 'tax-free' ethanol MUST be denatured by the addition of some difficult to remove and unpleasant chemicals. These denaturants typically don't alter the chemistry of whatever the ethanol was being used for, but they make humans horribly ill if they ingest them. If you want/need perfectly unaltered ethanol, you must have a license for it and basically pay an alcohol tax on it.

 

For diethylamide (Or diethylamine, I can't recall the exact name), it is illegal to posess because the only use for the compound is in the manufacture of LSD. There have been no other uses for it that can't be accomplished via other chemicals. For the making of LSD, however, that chemical MUST be used. Because of this selectivity, the government has decided that there is no need for any person who's not making LSD to posess the chemical.

[latentheat]

Although what bulldullwraagh is stating could very well get him in trouble if it's not true, it just may in fact be true. Look for a thread concerning kno3.com on another chem forum (I won't name the forum here, but you can figure it out).

 

Jdurg : it's diethylamide probably, because LSD is lysergic acid diethylamide.

 

For unaltered ethanol (not dry though) buy Everclear brand, but it's expensive (alcohol tax).

[YT2095]

since it`s not yet been PROVEN to be fact, it would still be prudent NOT to make such remarks, and thus err on the side of caution.

[bombuilder]

If they did do that wouldn't it be entrapment?

 

Oh and bombuilder' date=' coming onto a science forum and posting links to chem sites with a name like that is going to put you in a bad light.[/quote']

just to clarify i synthesize small quantities for a variety of test applications

[budullewraagh]

just to clarify, it's diethylamine that is used in lsd production. diethylamide doesn't exist, although diethylformamide does.

 

and sorry jdurg, but you are quite mistaken to believe that "You can possess ANY chemical in your home that you want and the law enforcement will have no bounds to arrest you." you also contradicted yourself when you said "For diethylamide (Or diethylamine, I can't recall the exact name), it is illegal to posess because the only use for the compound is in the manufacture of LSD."

 

for more on the illegality of possessing rp, wp and yp, check this out:

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2003/fr06242.htm

 

"On October 17, 2001, DEA published a Final Rulemaking (66 FR 52670) in which DEA added red phosphorus, white phosphorus (also known as yellow phosphorus) and hypophosphorous acid (and its salts) as List I chemicals. This action was taken because of the use and importance of these chemicals in the illicit manufacture of methamphetamine (a Schedule II controlled substance).

 

As List I chemicals, handlers of these materials became subject to Controlled Substances Act (CSA) chemical regulatory controls including registration, recordkeeping, reporting, and import/export requirements. DEA had determined that these controls are necessary to prevent the diversion of these chemicals to clandestine drug laboratories."

 

the government watches sales of these chemicals. and don't forget; they don't need a warrant anymore.

 

 

 

now, to clear up the issue of kno3.com.

 

first, i would like to say that i would rather my chemist bretheren not be arrested so long he or she has good intentions and a level head on his/her shoulders.

 

i challenge anyoneto tell me of a site that has any allotrope of phosphorus for sale to the general public in quantities of more than 10g at a price of less than 5x the price/unit mass that kno3.com sells it for.

 

i also challenge anyone to show me 5 sites that sell red phosphorus to the general public, regardless of price. this may be possible, but then you can consider price and quantity.

 

now consider and compare it to the price of, say, Potassium Perchlorate, which is £29.50 for 500g at similar purity.

 

check out the typo found here: http://www.kno3.com/infopage.asp?page=7

"RAW CHEMICALS INTERNATIONAL LIMITED is located , in the state of, Greater Manchester."

state, what? england? state?

 

also, check this out: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:3DDwbos6okoJ:www.chemicalsman.com/kno3urls/home.html++kno3+police+red+phosphorus&hl=en

they have since edited the link concerning the cleveland police

 

i need not discuss the alleged owner of the site and the source of the chemicals sold at kno3.com, as we have already discussed this.

 

i wont waste my time arguing about it, but i would strongly advise everyone to think about from where they wish to purchase chemicals.

[woelen]

Now some counterinfo:

 

How do you explain that the parcel I received is from the UK and not from the USA? On the scimad forum, someone else (from Australia) also mentioned that he ordered some chems from kno3.com. This person also wrote that the parcel is from the UK, and NOT from the USA.

 

How do you explain this site ? Same name as the owner of kno3.com, same style of writing, this is a UK-based site. Looks somewhat sloppy, but definitely does not look like a police-run site from the USA.

 

I agree with you that it is suspicious that the site of kno3.com is Texas-based, but this does not necessarily mean that the company and the person also are in Texas. For example, many dutch sites (especially the somewhat more obscure ones) are not in the Netherlands, but in the USA for instance. They, however, have a domainname, ending in .nl. Maybe kno3.com is too obscure for UK-laws and they feel better if their site is not hosted in the UK?

 

Yet another thing. How do you explain that this company ships worldwide? This is including the RP, as I also have some now for my element collection. If this were a police-run site in the USA, then why would they ship such an "evil chemical" like RP woldwide? If I were the police and wanted to use this as a trap, I would certainly limit the shipping to USA residents only. If the US-police allowed shipping of potential dangerous chems like RP, but also KClO3 etc. worldwide, then I'm quite sure that there are countries in the world who would not be amused with that.

 

now consider and compare it to the price of, say, Potassium Perchlorate, which is £29.50 for 500g at similar purity.

Could you explain this to me? What do you want to say with this? I think this is fairly expensive, but the RP even is more expensive at GBP 19.50 per 100 gram. You want to say that the other chems on the site besides the RP only are there to make the site look less like a police-trap? Indeed the RP is by far the most interesting chem from this site, but the other chems are not fake. They really can be ordered (in fact I ordered and received two rolls of magnesium ribbon at a discount price of just GBP 2.50 per roll).

 

Kerry-An Shanks also was an eBay seller till the end of last year, but he is not an active member anymore. Most of the chems from their site also were sold through eBay, but eBay is quite strict with regards to selling chems, so that may be the reason that he stopped selling chems on eBay. If this really were a police-run company, then why not have a deal with eBay and sell some RP over there?

 

I'm still not convinced and I think it is not OK to introduce fear and anger among fellow hobby-chemists. Of course it is good to warn people, but you bring this as a FACT and doing that simply is not fair. Not towards other people out there, but also not towards kno3.com. What if this really is a company, trying to make some money with selling chems? It is an extra source and if we as hobby chemists are acting paranoia on new sources, then soon no company will exist which sells to the general public.

 

I write this out of some frustration, because we now have a similar fear and paranoia discussion about a small Dutch company, which just started a few weeks ago, selling chems online to the general public (on the Dutch market only), including nice stuff as KClO3, KNO3, CS2, CH3COCH3, conc. HNO3, conc. H2SO4. Many hobby-chemists think this is a police-trap and so, they only get few orders. If things are going on like that, then the company will not survive, due to lack of orders, and a new potentially interesting source of chems is killed already, before it even can grow significantly.

[jdurg]

So I contradicted myself by explicitly stating that there are exceptions? Wow. I guess I better not say anything anymore.

 

If yo look at Title 21 CFR 1310.03, you'll find the following quote; "However, a non-regulated person who acquires listed chemicals for internal consumption or "end use" and becomes a regulated person by virtue of infrequent or rare distribution of a listed chemical from inventory, shall not be required to maintain receipt records of listed chemicals under this section. " That statement right there says that if you infrequently use the substance and have no plans on further distribution, you have no reason to be reported or be worried about arrest. Therefore, unless you're doing something illegal with those chemicals you have NOTHING to worry about.

 

If you read the DEA's website, you'll also see that the DEA is concerned with watching the manufacturers and distributors of these chemicals, not the end-user itself. We also find on the DEA's website the following quote; "Advise all distributors of these List I chemicals that it is unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to manufacture, distribute, export, or import any equipment, chemical, product, or material which may be used to manufacture a controlled substance or listed chemical, knowing, intending, or having reasonable cause to believe that it will be used to manufacture a controlled substance or listed chemical in violation of the Controlled Substance Act…21 U.S.C. 843(a)(7). Persons who violate 21 U.S.C. 843(a)(7) may be subject to criminal or civil penalties."

 

That quote, simply put, says 'if you purchase any of the equipment or chemicals with the intent to make illegal substances out of it, then it's illegal'. Well DUH! If you have the stuff lying around and there's no intent or goal of making a controlled substance with it, then you've done NOTHING illegal and you will NOT be arrested. Why should you worry about whether or not someone has your name on record if YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL? I said earlier that the U.S. government won't bother spending the time to watch over Joe Shmoe and his one purchase of red phosphorus. I still stand by that after reading through the DEA's website. The only thing the DEA mandates is that the SELLERs keep track of their sales. The DEA just wants the purchasers databased for evidence purposes. Let's say Joe Shmoe is buying red phosphorus and ephedrine from a whole bunch of different suppliers and is for some reason arrested. At this point the DEA can look and see that he's been arrested for methamphetamine possession and has bought a ton of chemicals due to the databasing of all these transactions. The DEA doesn't spend every day picking out people to go and arrest. They just use this 'evidence' as a massive source of leverage when litigating these drug users.

 

If you are someone who is a drug manufacturer or user, then you deserve to be locked up and thrown in jail. If anybody comes to this forum looking to buy chemicals for illegal purposes and is arrested, then GOOD!

[YT2095]

2 other points (of a financial nature), accusing sites of this Can as Woelen mentioned, drive them out of business OR force them to hike up the prices to compensate for lack of trade.

 

Secondly, IF it were a "trap" charging such high prices would be counter-productive for your, what is essentialy a `Honey Pot`.

 

I`m expressing no opinion about the site, I don`t know them and have never dealt with them, the Financial aspects are all I`m presenting here

[Dave0x01]

1. I'm pretty sure there are regulations in the US concerning labs and residential areas.

True in the United States. The EPA and a multitude of other agencies from the alphabet soup of governmental organizations have fought hard to ensure that nothing meaningful will be accomplished from a home-based laboratory.

 

2. Chemical suppliers will NOT ship to residential addresses.

Many will ship to a registered business at a residential address.

[Alchemist]

depending what for chemicals you want, you can buy some at a hardware store, pharmacy, etc.

p.e.

you can buy MgSO4, MgO, NaCO3, stuff like that at a pharmacy

and HCl,pure metals like Zn, Al, Cu, etc. at the hardware store.

 

then you can start making stuff MgCl, ZnCl and much more.

 

Just have look around at your local pharmacy for starters.

[woelen]

...NaCO3, stuff like that at a pharmacy...

Which pharmacy??? This would be a most interesting compound with remarkable redox-properties .

 

 

...MgCl, ZnCl and much more...

 

Wow, you are a really smart boy if you can make these!

Please tell me how, I'm really interested .

Yet another problem is how to store them for more than a fraction of a second .

[hoarp001]

Hi, i live in the UK and have orderd some chems from Kno3.com . At first, no probs, half of it arrived fine. Then i emailed to ask where the rest was and they replyed in very childish writing (spelt my name wrong) that it was out of stock and they would sent it next week. Its a month on, no more emails, i have emailed and phoned - i spent an hour today tracking them down with their address and ISP (which *is* in america) and found a woman that knew where they were and how i could contact them but she refused to give me their number.

 

I am anoyed, they have just blanked me off. I will write a snotty letter if i do not hear anything soon.

 

Has anyone else had problems like this?

 

Thanks.

[YT2095]

well I placed an order for 50g of elemental Iodine and 100g of red phos along with 30 foot of waterproof Fuse.

My phos and iodine arrived this morning no problem, the fuse is still outstanding tho????

I`ll wait for the regular post to come before I fone them up.

and Yes, they are UK based for shipping, Stirlingshire to be exact.

[woelen]

A fuse is a pyrotechnic device and probably will be subject to much more inspection. In the Netherlands that would certainly be a problem, I do not know about the UK though. I also ordered red P from kno3.com, and that was no problem at all, but I certainly dare not order fuses (or whatever pre-made devices for pyrotechnics). A parcel with fuses inside certainly will be investigated in more detail when it goes through the parcel-scanner. In fact, it is good that kno3.com did not ship the fuses and the other chems in the same parcel. In that case, you probably would have to wait for all three items.

 

The red P from kno3.com is not really cheap, but it has great purity. I have the stuff and the label tells it is 99.8% pure. It dissolves in a solution of Br2 in water, without leaving any residue and that indeed indicates very good purity. I have another source of red P and that source only sells it at around 96% purity, the rest being crap like sand (??), phosphate remains, fine carbon and other impurities. That other red P leaves quite some residue, when dissolved (and reacted) in a solution of Br2 in water. For pyrotechnic experiments that is of no concern, but it is a concern in more precise chemical experiments.

[YT2095]

well if they wish to check what I`m using it for, I`m certain they would be quite uninterested unless they like growing vegetables also

in particular Asparagus Loves Iodine as do carrots and radishes.

the Phos is slow leech when used in it`s elemental state and mixed with fine seived compost and used as a top dressing.

the 30 foot of waterproof fuse it avoid the problems we had last year with our firework display, now all will timed and linked to ONE fuse and thus elliminates the need to keep going close and lighting them individualy (and kids following you wanting to "Help").

this way A person lights ONE fuse and then we can ALL enjoy and no-one is at risk or misses the show because of working