Why Islamic Terrorists Attack the US...

[ParanoiA]

Speaking on Islamic extremist terrorism, I just about pulled my freaking hair out last night watching one conservative talk show idiot after another bash Ron Paul about his 9/11 "blowback" comments. They are delusional. I'm convinced.

 

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/15/ron-paul-vs-giuliani-on-the-root-causes-of-terrorism/

 

"I believe very sincerely that the CIA is correct when they teach and talk about blowback. When we went into Iran in 1953 and installed the shah, yes, there was blowback. A reaction to that was the taking of our hostages and that persists. And if we ignore that, we ignore that at our own risk. If we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem. They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there. I mean, what would we think if we were –if other foreign countries were doing that to us?"

 

Now, the Hannity response (sorry I couldn't find any quotes) was along the lines of 'Ron Paul is a nutcase to say america asked for 9/11' - which is NOT what he said.

 

And the ever popular 'No, Ron Paul is wrong because america is a great country that has done good things in the middle east' - which is NOT a point on why they don't hate us, but rather a plea to why they shouldn't hate us - which is irrelevant and totally off center to Paul's point. It doesn't matter if you think they have a good reason to hate us or not, the fact is that they do. This goes unchecked by EVERY conservative nutcase on Foxnews.

 

So, I think this is an important point that deserves its own thread and poll.

 

Why do terrorists attack us?

 

1) Because we're rich and free?

2) Because of our presence and meddling?

3) Because we're not Muslim?

 

I'm not asking why they hate us. There's a huge difference.

[YT2095]

you ask about Terrorists, so what has that got to do with Muslims, presence, freedom, money or any of it?

 

there are terrorist attacks all over the planet, and probably as many reasons as there are terrorists.

 

eta, ira, una bomber.... c`mon man, think!

[ParanoiA]

you ask about Terrorists, so what has that got to do with Muslims, presence, freedom, money or any of it?

 

there are terrorist attacks all over the planet, and probably as many reasons as there are terrorists.

 

eta, ira, una bomber.... c`mon man, think!

 

Well I'm speaking about Al Queda, Muslim extremist terrorism. I don't know of any other terrorists that attack the US. Sure a nutcase here or there, like the unibomber, Oklahoma city bombing and etc, but that's not what I'm asking about.

[Phi for All]

Assuming the terrorists you're talking about are fundamentalist Islamics, I think the closest answer is because of our presence and meddling. And I think their perceptions of our meddling are heightened by many factors, such as their leadership and clergy naming us enemies of their whole religion, arms dealers looking to grow their businesses by fomenting aggressive reactions, and the inability of both sides to understand each other's strange economic and cultural differences.

[ParanoiA]

Assuming the terrorists you're talking about are fundamentalist Islamics...

 

I would change the thread title to reflect Islamic terrorism but I can't seem to edit that after the fact...

[YT2095]

well IF it`s the same old same old again.

 

then it`s Not option 1, because quite a few muslim countries are Very Rich indeed! and freedom to them is what they already consider as having, it`s just not the same as Our view.

 

it`s not Option 3 either as they`ll kill each other just as easily and Do!

 

that leaves option 2, and that`s probably only a fraction of the reason.

 

the poll (if you ignore the obvious Bias) is at best incomplete.

[ParanoiA]

the poll (if you ignore the obvious Bias) is at best incomplete.

 

Ok, let's complete it. Try telling me what other options need to be there and let's update the poll. I'm not putting together a comprehensive report on why they attack us, rather a generalized attitude and impression. If we can make it more accurate, provide more options, then I'm all for it.

 

It's obvious where I stand on this, but I want to know how many people really think it's NOT about our presence and meddling as to why they attack us. There's plenty of reasons why they hate us, and I'm disinterested for the most part. I don't run around worried about what others think of me. I do, however, care about what others do to me and why.

[iNow]

Why do terrorists attack us?

I think it has something to do with the viewpoints expressed on shows like Hannity, and the vast masses of people who buy into, support, and act on the nonsense spouted by these shows.

 

 

Creationism is terrorism to the scientists.

[geoguy]

Assuming the terrorists you're talking about are fundamentalist Islamics, I think the closest answer is because of our presence and meddling. And I think their perceptions of our meddling are heightened by many factors, such as their leadership and clergy naming us enemies of their whole religion, arms dealers looking to grow their businesses by fomenting aggressive reactions, and the inability of both sides to understand each other's strange economic and cultural differences.

 

I don't see the perception of meddling heightened. It's a reality that is in their face and has been in their face since the French blasted the nose off of the Sphynx.

 

Muslims don't need religious nuts to tell them that the USA installed a thug regime in the 1950's in Iran, invaded Iraq in the 2003, sells billions in arms to Saudi thugs. No perceptual issues.

 

(note, polls with finite options on open-ended topics lack value). Can't vote.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i

[YT2095]

no, I refused to vote also, same reasons.

 

 

btw, edit your post and remove that "i" at the bottom, it looks messy.

[Reaper]

It's a very complicated issue and one can write entire books about it.

 

But overall, we've been pretty much raping them for their resources since the early 20th century. At the same time we've been installing tyrannical sock-puppet regimes. All in the name of democracy and freedom.

[ParanoiA]

(note, polls with finite options on open-ended topics lack value). Can't vote.

 

Yet you essentially voted for presence and meddling. I'll increment that value in my head.

 

I understand the whole poll thing, I've bitched about polls for years; suggestive answers within the questions, not enough choices, not complete enough - blah blah blah. I think we all know there's a handful of dynamics at work that contribute to hatred, mistrust, and violence. No poll is going to cover that. Like I said, I'm not asking for a comprehensive report to submit for peer review...I'm just asking for a generalized impression.

 

I'm really more interested in who thinks it's JUST about being rich and free that causes muslim extremists to fly across the ocean and attack us somehow. I'm thinking there are plenty of rich and free nations a stone's throw away so that doesn't fit, to me. This is the reasoning sold by the Bush administration and all aspiring republican presidential wannabe's, except for Dr. Paul.

[YT2095]

ok, Paranoia, Why don`t you conduct a survey (textual) First, and Then base the poll upon the ideas presented there.

 

all Genuine data gathering polls conduct these long before the Poll questions are thought of.

 

Just an idea

[Phi for All]

I would change the thread title to reflect Islamic terrorism but I can't seem to edit that after the fact...

Titles are pretty sacrosanct in forums. Can't let people post about one thing then have a title change make them look goofy.

I don't see the perception of meddling heightened. It's a reality that is in their face and has been in their face since the French blasted the nose off of the Sphynx.

I see perceptions meddled with on all sides, mainly by each side's media. Information is presented differently depending on whether the country-specific media is driven by political, religious, or corporate agendas. Regardless of the reality, views and opinions are altered by these agendas no matter where you look.

 

And I believe there is meddling from those who profit more directly from armed aggression. Supplying wars is extremely profitable and it would seem to be very easy for those with the skill to spin a very persuasive pitch on why defense by terrorism is a great solution. The terrorists are probably told they can win with these tactics, despite their history of failure. The true goals of terrorism seem to be fear and bleeding the victim country's economy, making them spend billions to your hundreds of thousands. Terrorism is money in some people's pockets, money on a scale that can buy the best spin available.

[Reaper]

The terrorists are probably told they can win with these tactics, despite their history of failure. The true goals of terrorism seem to be fear and bleeding the victim country's economy, making them spend billions to your hundreds of thousands.

 

It's not so much the economy that they are looking to drain, but rather just to instill a sense of fear and hopelessness in the enemy. The whole point of terrorism is to, well, terrorize. Get them to believe that the war is un-winnable. Mostly what we are seeing is a sort of guerrilla warfare going on in the Middle East, and terrorist tactics are common. Typically what would happen is that once they got enough support or manpower, then they would switch over to conventional warfare and knock the enemy right out.

 

And there are examples in history in which these tactics did actually work, just look at Vietnam. The Viet-Cong relied heavily on terrorist tactics and it demoralized the troops to the point where they were not able to really fight effectively in combat.

[ParanoiA]

ok, Paranoia, Why don`t you conduct a survey (textual) First, and Then base the poll upon the ideas presented there.

 

all Genuine data gathering polls conduct these long before the Poll questions are thought of.

 

Just an idea

 

I don't know much about how Polls come to be, sorry. I always thought they were more for "shaping" opinion than actually querying for it, at least in the news media anyway.

 

I'm not really sure how to draft a survey, but that sounds like the best idea. If I had known better, I would have figured that out and done that first. I made an incorrect assumption that everyone would jump on the presence and meddling and that would be that...

[YT2095]

no worries, basically you`de do the same as you did here, but without the poll.

 

get the opinion of the masses, and then extrapolate data from that in order to get the basis for poll type questions.

it`s also a good policy to make it Multi-choice (you can choose more than one), and also have an "I don`t know" option also.

 

the latter serves as an equally revealing datum.

[Pangloss]

In my opinion the most important underlying problem is individual economic success. The religious stuff and the western intervention are just ingredients in an overall disease that is fundamentally based on economic success (or lack thereof). The great wealth of the middle east is not accessible to too many of its citizens.

 

Note how little terrorism takes place in countries where the wealth IS accessible (Dubai, for example). Those countries may participate in terrorism to some lesser extent (Saudi Arabians providing funding and expertise and sometimes manpower, for example), but notice how in almost all of those cases the motivating factor is dealing with the impoverished -- either helping them find economic success (e.g. schools), or leveraging them in personal power games (e.g. Osama bin Laden).

 

Poverty is the most powerful motivating factor in the modern world. Once the people of Iraq have flat-screen TVs, 24-hour electricity and decent jobs, their interest in Al Qaeda will fade like week-old mansaf. This is why stabilizing an Iraq democracy should be the #1 international priority FOR EVERY WESTERN NATION.

 

Or we can sit around bickering about missing WMDs and those awful Republicans. You make the call.

[geoguy]

Poll

 

Your favorite football team is:

 

1) Minnesota Vikings

2) Calgary Stampeders

3) Manchester United

 

Please vote.

 

Not picking on Paranoia. His poll is much better than the above. Used to illustrate how some results are meaningless.

 

Re Muslims....just trying not to dogpile on the USA. The largest Muslim country, Indonesia was exploited by the Dutch...the Brits were in Malaysia, India and what's today Pakistan and Bangladesh....the French in Algeria, Morocco....etc. It's the 'West' that has its fingerprints all over the exploitation of the Muslim world.

 

Yet you essentially voted for presence and meddling. I'll increment that value in my head.

 

 

Not at all. It's one of several elements. That's why options such as 'a' vs 'b' are meaningless. the reason for a team winning the Superbowl can be a strong offense AND a strong defense....it doesn't need to be either one or the other.

 

The Muslim world is a complicated place. Insurgency, freedom fighters, revolutionaities, terrorists, guerillas, etc. can't all be pigeon holed into simplistic boxes.

[Phi for All]

It's not so much the economy that they are looking to drain, but rather just to instill a sense of fear and hopelessness in the enemy. The whole point of terrorism is to, well, terrorize. Get them to believe that the war is un-winnable. Mostly what we are seeing is a sort of guerrilla warfare going on in the Middle East, and terrorist tactics are common. Typically what would happen is that once they got enough support or manpower, then they would switch over to conventional warfare and knock the enemy right out.

 

And there are examples in history in which these tactics did actually work, just look at Vietnam. The Viet-Cong relied heavily on terrorist tactics and it demoralized the troops to the point where they were not able to really fight effectively in combat.

If fear alone was their goal they couldn't gain as much support as they do. The 9/11 assault on the World Trade Center was supposed to bring western business to it's knees (I think relaxing regulations to allow housing lenders to sell sub-prime loans has done more to hurt western business). They believe they will win or be martyred trying and that should be a very hard pitch to sell considering how ineffective it's been. One of al-Qa'ida's goals is to remove western influence in their territory, and they aren't EVER going to achieve that in the foreseeable future, imo.

[Reaper]

If fear alone was their goal they couldn't gain as much support as they do. The 9/11 assault on the World Trade Center was supposed to bring western business to it's knees (I think relaxing regulations to allow housing lenders to sell sub-prime loans has done more to hurt western business). They believe they will win or be martyred trying and that should be a very hard pitch to sell considering how ineffective it's been. One of al-Qa'ida's goals is to remove western influence in their territory, and they aren't EVER going to achieve that in the foreseeable future, imo.

 

If you are talking about Al Qa'ida, then yes, one of their goals is to ruin US economy. Well, pretty much they want to give the western powers and any kind of influence it brought the boot. I agree that they are totally ineffective, so I don't know why the White House fusses over such a trivial threat. IMO, the U.S. should focus more on Russia and China.

 

I was just talking about terrorist tactics in general, which are used with the purpose of demoralization. In the past, especially during the world wars, they were used in addition to conventional warfare in an attempt to gain any kind of advantage.

[Phi for All]

I was just talking about terrorist tactics in general, which are used with the purpose of demoralization. In the past, especially during the world wars, they were used in addition to conventional warfare in an attempt to gain any kind of advantage.

I guess that's why I suspect there is more to Islamic terrorist tactics than meets the eye. They have no conventional army, the actual terrorists are comparatively few in number and they work from compartmented cells. They have no chance of removing western influence with their tactics but they continue anyway.

 

I think the Islamic terrorists are seen as folk heroes and freedom fighters by their own and evil alien villains by their western enemies. I think these images are exploited by profiteers. It's cheap marketing to provide some weapons to fanatics who can spend $100 to produce a video tape that causes millions in troop redeployment and heightened security measures. If I were an arms dealer, keeping the terrorists fired up would be my cheapest marketing, and spending hundreds of thousands to make hundreds of billions is a good return on investment.

[geoguy]

the Islamic whackos are not stupid. Their goal was not and is not to bring the economy of the USA to its knees. That must be more baloney americans hear from Bush and his lads.

 

The Islamic whackos have the physical capability of limp noodles to impact the USA either militarily or economically. Their only power is to do exactly what they provoked the USA into doing... over react and shoot themselves in the foot. Exacerbate the 'us vs them'... good vs evil' . Helter Skelter.

 

The result is the USA is distrusted by much of the world and the American president despised. Meanwhile OBL is the most admired man in the Islamic world. The USA has turned a gnat into an elephant. The Islamic whackos are grinning ear to ear whether they be hold up in a cave in afghanistan or in the President's office in Tehran.

 

George W would have been welcomed with cheers if he walked down a street of Ottawa the months immediately following 9/11. Today Bush would be spit on. I doubt he could visit any capitol city in western Europe without having to be wisked through back doors to avoid the hatred he'd receive from the crowds.

 

The Islamic whackos have played the USA like a fish on the line. As a fellow mentioned on the Mcglaughlin Group last week, the fundamentalists including those in power in Tehran get down on their knees and ask for an attack on Iran from the USA. Bush keeps playing right into their hands.

[JackMuChabas]

You didn't have a choice asking if I thought Arms dealers, Al quaeda, Saudia Arabia and our highest office are all the same people!

[geoguy]

You didn't have a choice asking if I thought Arms dealers, Al quaeda, Saudia Arabia and our highest office are all the same people!

 

Some of those first three were 'the good guys' to the Americans when dealing in American weapons. President Bush keeps calling the Saudi despots 'our good friends' and sells them 20 billion dollars in even more weapons....some of the very same Saudi princes who encouraged and funded attacks on the USA.

 

In 10 years, when the Saudi thugs are overthrown and replaced by Sunni fundies, there will be a poll on

:

'Gee whiz....why don't the Saudi people like us?'